Poor Connections Planned from December at Cardiff - westbound.

[Envoy]

I see that the hourly Manchester to west Wales services will run only every other hour from the timetable change in September. This is because of the introduction of loco hauled services every other hour between Cardiff & Manchester and vice versa. In some cases, people coming south off The Marches and wishing to progress west of Cardiff, face an hour’s wait at Newport for a GWR train that will only take them as far west as Swansea.

A loco hauled train from Manchester terminates at Cardiff at 11.53am . Why therefore has a departure to Milford Haven been timed to leave Cardiff at 11.47? This means that anybody coming off The Marches has to wait in Cardiff until 12.42 for a GWR train going as far west as Swansea.

At 15.44 a loco hauled train arrives in Cardiff (terminates) from Manchester whilst at exactly the same minute, another train departs for west Wales. At 15.39 a GWR train from London leaves Cardiff for Swansea. So, two trains heading west of Cardiff within minutes of each other while missing a connection for people coming off the Manchester train within minutes. You could not make it up. Who plans these schedules?

The next service to west Wales departs Cardiff at 16.02 but this doubles up as an all stops service to Swansea before continuing to Fishguard. So, no doubt taking shoppers and commuters home from Cardiff and could well do without the long distance passengers coming off The Marches. Presumably this train will be rammed?

 

[Watershed]

I see that the hourly Manchester to west Wales services will run only every other hour from the timetable change in September. This is because of the introduction of loco hauled services every other hour between Cardiff & Manchester and vice versa. In some cases, people coming south off The Marches and wishing to progress west of Cardiff, face an hour’s wait at Newport for a GWR train that will only take them as far west as Swansea.

A loco hauled train from Manchester terminates at Cardiff at 11.53am . Why therefore has a departure to Milford Haven been timed to leave Cardiff at 11.47? This means that anybody coming off The Marches has to wait in Cardiff until 12.42 for a GWR train gong as far west as Swansea.

At 15.44 a loco hauled train arrives in Cardiff (terminates) in Cardiff from Manchester whilst at exactly the same minute, another train departs for west Wales. At 15.39 a GWR train from London leaves Cardiff for Swansea. So, two trains heading west of Cardiff within minutes of each other while missing a connection for people coming off the Manchester train within minutes. You could not make it up. Who plans these schedules?

The next service to west Wales departs Cardiff at 16.02 but this doubles up as an all stops service to Swansea before continuing to Fishguard. So, no doubt taking shoppers and commuters home from Cardiff and could well do without the long distance passengers coming off The Marches. Presumably this train will be rammed?

It's the result of the schedules simply being split without sufficient attention being paid to connections being maintained (or, perhaps, a desire not to change things too much to fix them). The loco hauled services are generally a little later into Cardiff as a result of having longer dwells and, in some areas, slower timings due to not being able to take advantage of higher speed limits as the 175s can.

Hopefully the wider TfW recast due next year will fix this, but as you say, it's quite a downgrade for those who have relied on having an hourly through service for many years. The loss of through connectivity to Swansea is particularly poor in my view.

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

You're both definitely right about this, and as a passenger in South Wales, that travels West often; it will be difficult with these connections.

Honestly, I think (particularly for the first month or so of introducing the timetable), we'll see TfW staff holding Milford Haven/Carmarthen bound trains until the Marches connection arrives, with the reason of "departed late to maintain customer connections".

Often, these days, I see further westbound and eastbound services getting held and pretty badly delayed at CDF, while TfW try and get everyone off one train to the other.

 

[Purple Train]

The next service to west Wales departs Cardiff at 16.02 but this doubles up as an all stops service to Swansea before continuing to Fishguard. So, no doubt taking shoppers and commuters home from Cardiff and could well do without the long distance passengers coming off The Marches. Presumably this train will be rammed?

If it remains as a pair of 153s as it usually has been, it'll be appalling.

 

[43055]

I see that the hourly Manchester to west Wales services will run only every other hour from the timetable change in September. This is because of the introduction of loco hauled services every other hour between Cardiff & Manchester and vice versa. In some cases, people coming south off The Marches and wishing to progress west of Cardiff, face an hour’s wait at Newport for a GWR train that will only take them as far west as Swansea.

A loco hauled train from Manchester terminates at Cardiff at 11.53am . Why therefore has a departure to Milford Haven been timed to leave Cardiff at 11.47? This means that anybody coming off The Marches has to wait in Cardiff until 12.42 for a GWR train gong as far west as Swansea.

At 15.44 a loco hauled train arrives in Cardiff (terminates) from Manchester whilst at exactly the same minute, another train departs for west Wales. At 15.39 a GWR train from London leaves Cardiff for Swansea. So, two trains heading west of Cardiff within minutes of each other while missing a connection for people coming off the Manchester train within minutes. You could not make it up. Who plans these schedules?

The next service to west Wales departs Cardiff at 16.02 but this doubles up as an all stops service to Swansea before continuing to Fishguard. So, no doubt taking shoppers and commuters home from Cardiff and could well do without the long distance passengers coming off The Marches. Presumably this train will be rammed?

Yes, it is not ideal but looking at the 1153 arrival that you have mentioned every other platform is basically used around this time which is why both services use platform 3 and will probably explain why the Milford service departs before the Manchester one arrives.

 

[Kite159]

Yes, it is not ideal but looking at the 1153 arrival that you have mentioned every other platform is basically used around this time which is why both services use platform 3 and will probably explain why the Milford service departs before the Manchester one arrives.

Are the platforms long enough to have the Milford train sat on the western end with the train from Manchester coming in on the eastern end allowing passengers a short walk along the platform to board the onward train?

 

[Snow1964]

Are the platforms long enough to have the Milford train sat on the western end with the train from Manchester coming in on the eastern end allowing passengers a short walk along the platform to board the onward train?

Yes platform 3 (and 4 opposite side of island) are long enough to be designated 3a and 3b, so wouldn’t even confuse passengers

Not sure of exact length, but in total they are well over 200m, more than enough for 10car trains

 

[Watershed]

Are the platforms long enough to have the Milford train sat on the western end with the train from Manchester coming in on the eastern end allowing passengers a short walk along the platform to board the onward train?

If correctly positioned, anything up to a double 150/quadruple 153/3 coach 175/2×2 coach 175 (in combination with a 5 coach Mk4 set) would fit in platforms 1-4. However, without reducing the overall connection time at Cardiff (which would require agreement from GWR and probably wouldn't be a great idea, all things considered) you couldn't make the connections work anyway.

 

[Jez]

I see that the hourly Manchester to west Wales services will run only every other hour from the timetable change in September. This is because of the introduction of loco hauled services every other hour between Cardiff & Manchester and vice versa. In some cases, people coming south off The Marches and wishing to progress west of Cardiff, face an hour’s wait at Newport for a GWR train that will only take them as far west as Swansea.

A loco hauled train from Manchester terminates at Cardiff at 11.53am . Why therefore has a departure to Milford Haven been timed to leave Cardiff at 11.47? This means that anybody coming off The Marches has to wait in Cardiff until 12.42 for a GWR train gong as far west as Swansea.

At 15.44 a loco hauled train arrives in Cardiff (terminates) from Manchester whilst at exactly the same minute, another train departs for west Wales. At 15.39 a GWR train from London leaves Cardiff for Swansea. So, two trains heading west of Cardiff within minutes of each other while missing a connection for people coming off the Manchester train within minutes. You could not make it up. Who plans these schedules?

The next service to west Wales departs Cardiff at 16.02 but this doubles up as an all stops service to Swansea before continuing to Fishguard. So, no doubt taking shoppers and commuters home from Cardiff and could well do without the long distance passengers coming off The Marches. Presumably this train will be rammed?

I agree. Its very poor. As Cardiff has a 7-minute minimum connection time there is no way they can make them work as valid connections. They really need to completely change the time of the West Wales departures and have them depart at 4 minutes past the hour on the hours they connect with a train from Manchester. Like they do on Saturdays. Of course that would make the turnaround time at Milford shorter but that shouldnt be too much of an issue. Milford is hardly a busy station!

The connections in the other direction are just as bad. Journey planner advises to get the GWR and connect at Cardiff meaning the journey for passengers West of Cardiff to Manchester etc is half an hour or so longer (and thats only of any use if you are travelling from Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend). The sensible thing for any through passengers would be just to book onto the trains the hour they do go through from West Wales to Manchester but it's limiting the usefulness of the service overall with less direct trains.

 

[Western 52]

Effectively cutting the through trains from west of Swansea to east of Cardiff in this way will hardly encourage people to go by train. There are plenty of us who need to make such journeys, with the current hourly service being convenient. I hope they resolve this in the next timetable, but platform capacity at Cardiff may prevent this. Maybe they could run the Carmarthen trains from Newport? Passengers from the Marches line could change there where platform capacity may be less of an issue. The Carmarthen train then follows the Marches train to Cardiff then through to the west.

 

[Envoy]

You're both definitely right about this, and as a passenger in South Wales, that travels West often; it will be difficult with these connections.

Honestly, I think (particularly for the first month or so of introducing the timetable), we'll see TfW staff holding Milford Haven/Carmarthen bound trains until the Marches connection arrives, with the reason of "departed late to maintain customer connections".

Often, these days, I see further westbound and eastbound services getting held and pretty badly delayed at CDF, while TfW try and get everyone off one train to the other.

The trouble is that ‘held’ trains to make a connection don’t show up on the schedules that people are given on-line if in the case of Cardiff, the minimum connection time of 7 minutes is not scheduled. People are also usually advised to change at the first opportunity which could well be Newport.

 

[Parallel]

I wonder if this will mean connections will also get worse off the ex-Portsmouth Harbour trains too. You used to be able to connect at Newport or Cardiff for the GWR Swansea trains, but these were re-timed to depart before the GWR ex-Portsmouths arrived, which usually makes the TfW West Wales trains the connection on an hourly basis, but I wonder if the Cardiff - West Wales trains will depart too closely to the arrival from Portsmouth meaning that it will no longer be an official connection.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder if this will mean connections will also get worse off the ex-Portsmouth Harbour trains too. You used to be able to connect at Newport or Cardiff for the GWR Swansea trains, but these were re-timed to depart before the GWR ex-Portsmouths arrived, which usually makes the TfW West Wales trains the connection on an hourly basis, but I wonder if the Cardiff - West Wales trains will depart too closely to the arrival from Portsmouth meaning that it will no longer be an official connection.

You are right in your assumption. Say someone leaves Romsey on an x22 departure (through GWR train to Cardiff from Portsmouth). National Rail website tells them to disembark at Newport at x31 minutes and they have to wait almost an hour for an x27 departure on a GWR London to Swansea train. (This applies to those alternate hours when the trains from Manchester terminate at Cardiff as from the December timetable change).

Let's take a look at Cardiff Central around the time that a train from Manchester terminates.
11.46am Train from Portsmouth arrives.
11.47am Cardiff to Milford Haven express train departs.
11.53am Train from Manchester arrives (terminates).
12.42 Train to Swansea (GWR London to Swansea express) departs.

So, we have arrivals from Manchester (via The Marches) and Portsmouth via Southampton, Bath & Bristol dumping passengers at Cardiff Central within minutes of the non connecting fast train to west Wales departing. Passengers then have to wait almost an hour to go west to Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath & Swansea. Those travelling west of Swansea are even more hard done by because they have missed the express departing Cardiff at 11.47.

You could not make it up!

 

[craigybagel]

Given the 7 minute minimum connection time at Cardiff, it's near impossible to make the connections work without recasting the timetable. The Manchester services can't be moved because of their fixed path in and out of Manchester, and it's not easy to move the West Wales services either to make them connect in both directions and provide sufficient turnaround time in West Wales.

In my experience working the route the vast majority of passengers swap over at Cardiff anyway and through traffic is minimal - though that market will still be provided with a service every 2 hours. In return, the much larger Cardiff - Manchester market gets the extra capacity it needs and a big step up in quality.

And it should all be temporary anyway with a big timetable recast coming soon, and the possibility of speeding up the Manchester services in future.

 

[Envoy]

Given the 7 minute minimum connection time at Cardiff, it's near impossible to make the connections work without recasting the timetable. The Manchester services can't be moved because of their fixed path in and out of Manchester, and it's not easy to move the West Wales services either to make them connect in both directions and provide sufficient turnaround time in West Wales.

In my experience working the route the vast majority of passengers swap over at Cardiff anyway and through traffic is minimal - though that market will still be provided with a service every 2 hours. In return, the much larger Cardiff - Manchester market gets the extra capacity it needs and a big step up in quality.

And it should all be temporary anyway with a big timetable recast coming soon, and the possibility of speeding up the Manchester services in future.

Many thanks for your response. I was aware that the Manchester services are set in stone because they have to cross the busy WCML at Crewe. I just find it hard to believe that they can’t be speeded up by say 4 minutes and the departure from Cardiff to Milford be retarded by say 4 minutes in order to make an advertised connection. I wonder if passengers will be informed on approaching Cardiff that if they are slick about it, they can make a connection westward and that the train is parked and ready to go in front of this train? I see the turnaround time at Milford can be tight on some services.

I note the churn rate of passengers is greater at large cities. I welcome the step up in quality and capacity on the Cardiff to Manchester run.

 

[craigybagel]

Many thanks for your response. I was aware that the Manchester services are set in stone because they have to cross the busy WCML at Crewe. I just find it hard to believe that they can’t be speeded up by say 4 minutes and the departure from Cardiff to Milford be retarded by say 4 minutes in order to make an advertised connection. I wonder if passengers will be informed on approaching Cardiff that if they are slick about it, they can make a connection westward and that the train is parked and ready to go in front of this train? I see the turnaround time at Milford can be tight on some services.

I note the churn rate of passengers is greater at large cities. I welcome the step up in quality and capacity on the Cardiff to Manchester run.

From what I've seen of the timings, I don't believe there's an extra 4 minutes to be found at present. It should be doable in future - Manchester services should be able to drop some calls along the marches when the Liverpool - Cardiff service starts up. At the same time, getting dispensation to run at MU speeds would be enough. So I'm confident that in future connections can be improved.

 

[Envoy]

From what I've seen of the timings, I don't believe there's an extra 4 minutes to be found at present. It should be doable in future - Manchester services should be able to drop some calls along the marches when the Liverpool - Cardiff service starts up. At the same time, getting dispensation to run at MU speeds would be enough. So I'm confident that in future connections can be improved.

As I understand it, the 67’s are not allowed to go faster than 75mph between Shrewsbury & Craven Arms but are allowed to do 90mph on other sections of The Marches where permitted. Let us hope that Network Rail allow them to run at MU speeds.

I note that trains running say 20 minutes late at Newport have been able to arrive in Manchester on time - so clearly a certain amount of slack is in the schedules for such an amount of time to be made up.

I wonder why the relatively straight track between Carmarthen and Clunderwen is limited to only 75mph? Other relatively straight tracks have speed limits of 100mph or more. If trains could travel faster west of Cardiff, then that would solve the tight turnarounds that we have at present at Milford Haven.

 

[craigybagel]

As I understand it, the 67’s are not allowed to go faster than 75mph between Shrewsbury & Craven Arms but are allowed to do 90mph on other sections of The Marches where permitted. Let us hope that Network Rail allow them to run at MU speeds.

That's broadly it. You also have the Shrewsbury to Crewe section where locos are 70 Vs 90 for units, that costs about 5 minutes alone on a non stop service.

I note that trains running say 20 minutes late at Newport have been able to arrive in Manchester on time - so clearly a certain amount of slack is in the schedules for such an amount of time to be made up.

There is a fair bit of recovery time between Crewe and Manchester all right. But with a 15 minutes turnaround on such a long journey you wouldn't want to cut that in any way.

I wonder why the relatively straight track between Carmarthen and Clunderwen is limited to only 75mph? Other relatively straight tracks have speed limits of 100mph or more. If trains could travel faster west of Cardiff, then that would solve the tight turnarounds that we have at present at Milford Haven.

I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall any time this subject comes up it gets mentioned that the straightness of track is only one of many factors behind line speed. Even the busier Cardiff - Swansea section only has a relatively short amount of 100mph running.

 

[Starmill]

The 1630 from Manchester Piccadilly appears to run through to Swansea. Perhaps a long term solution is to start its inward working back at Swansea, and to add another one like this in the morning. Obviously this isn't going to happen in the short term though.

It would still mean that the connection is broken for some Manchester - Carmarthen journeys of course, but that's tolerable and as there are extra services from Swansea the wait may be shorter than an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2022 ==

I wonder why the relatively straight track between Carmarthen and Clunderwen is limited to only 75mph? Other relatively straight tracks have speed limits of 100mph or more. If trains could travel faster west of Cardiff, then that would solve the tight turnarounds that we have at present at Milford Haven.

There are too many factors which could affect this to mention really, but some important ones could be what is under the track in terms of the ground engineering and any structures, and what maintenance cycle the route has i.e. maintenance requirements may change outwith the current staffing if permissible speed is increased. Another very important one is level crossing risk.

 

[craigybagel]

The 1630 from Manchester Piccadilly appears to run through to Swansea. Perhaps a long term solution is to start its inward working back at Swansea, and to add another one like this in the morning. Obviously this isn't going to happen in the short term though.

It would still mean that the connection is broken for some Manchester - Carmarthen journeys of course, but that's tolerable and as there are extra services from Swansea the wait may be shorter than an hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2022 ==

Can't be done without extra stock I'm afraid. The current planned morning departure and evening arrival is pretty much all that can be done with the current fleet levels.

 

[Starmill]

Can't be done without extra stock I'm afraid. The current planned morning departure and evening arrival is pretty much all that can be done with the current fleet levels.

You would only be flipping the 197 sets and locomotive hauled sets around so it shouldn't make that much difference. However it would probably make it impossible to keep all of the Carmarthen - Swansea extras, unless GWR can operate some more.

 

[craigybagel]

You would only be flipping the 197 sets and locomotive hauled sets around so it shouldn't make that much difference. However it would probably make it impossible to keep all of the Carmarthen - Swansea extras, unless GWR can operate some more.

Whatever way you do it, it's probably going to be worse than the currently planned solution.

 

[Jez]

Given the 7 minute minimum connection time at Cardiff, it's near impossible to make the connections work without recasting the timetable. The Manchester services can't be moved because of their fixed path in and out of Manchester, and it's not easy to move the West Wales services either to make them connect in both directions and provide sufficient turnaround time in West Wales.

In my experience working the route the vast majority of passengers swap over at Cardiff anyway and through traffic is minimal - though that market will still be provided with a service every 2 hours. In return, the much larger Cardiff - Manchester market gets the extra capacity it needs and a big step up in quality.

And it should all be temporary anyway with a big timetable recast coming soon, and the possibility of speeding up the Manchester services in future.

I agree. The vast majority of passengers alight the train at Cardiff in both directions with not that many making through journeys. However, it's still an inconvenience for those who do make longer journeys. For example, if someone wanted to travel from Crewe to Haverfordwest they would have an hour wait in either Cardiff, Swansea or Carmarthen yet would get a direct train on the up journey from Haverfordwest to Crewe.

There seems to be a lot of padding in the timetable. For example, the 0830 from Manchester to Cardiff has a 8-minute wait at Newport. If the wait was cut back to say 2 minutes, its possible with a bit of readjusting to the timetable for the West Wales departure times a connection could still be a valid connection.

Also as i said before it will just be easier for passengers to catch the train that does run through to Carmarthen if they are travelling further west than Cardiff. alrthough this doesnt help passengers for Milford/Haverfordwest on the down journeys. But there probabaly arent that many travelling east of Cardiff to West of Carmarthen and sometimes you just have to acceptm a long wait when making a long journey.

 

[craigybagel]

I agree. The vast majority of passengers alight the train at Cardiff in both directions with not that many making through journeys. However, it's still an inconvenience for those who do make longer journeys. For example, if someone wanted to travel from Crewe to Haverfordwest they would have an hour wait in either Cardiff, Swansea or Carmarthen yet would get a direct train on the up journey from Haverfordwest to Crewe.

The number of people who want to make that journey is very, VERY small. The important thing for West of Carmarthen is to keep an hourly service to Cardiff. The market beyond that is negligible.

There seems to be a lot of padding in the timetable. For example, the 0830 from Manchester to Cardiff has a 8-minute wait at Newport. If the wait was cut back to say 2 minutes, its possible with a bit of readjusting to the timetable for the West Wales departure times a connection could still be a valid connection.

It's overtaken at Newport by a GWR Portsmouth to Cardiff service. If the TfW left after 2 minutes, the GWR would be delayed.

 

[Starmill]

Whatever way you do it, it's probably going to be worse than the currently planned solution.

I think that depends on how you look at it.

Some people would say that you should decide on the timetable you need based on the economic and commercial dimension, set out a robust long term plan to acquire the resources necessary to achieve that timetable and then you stick to it. Instead, Transport for Wales have tried to arbitrage the market for rolling stock, modifying life-expired 153s, scooping up under-priced mark 4 sets and releasing the more expensive 170s which will command a premium price from competitors. As a result, some of the economically and commercially desirable elements of the original plan now cannot be delivered. They'll also face negative stakeholder pressure.

It also remains to be seen if the strategy itself even saves money in the long term because 230s and 153s will now need to be replaced at the same time in 6-8 years.

Splitting all or nearly all of these services at Swansea is a tolerable long term solution. More tolerable than splitting them at Cardiff Central without a connection is going to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2022 ==

Also as i said before it will just be easier for passengers to catch the train that does run through to Carmarthen if they are travelling further west than Cardiff. alrthough this doesnt help passengers for Milford/Haverfordwest on the down journeys. But there probabaly arent that many travelling east of Cardiff to West of Carmarthen and sometimes you just have to acceptm a long wait when making a long journey.

There's never really been an imperative for trains from West Wales to run through to anywhere other than Swansea, and some services to Cardiff. However, Swansea (+ Neath + Port Talbot Parkway) is a major traffic generator.

 

[craigybagel]

I think that depends on how you look at it.

Some people would say that you should decide on the timetable you need based on the economic and commercial dimension, set out a robust long term plan to acquire the resources necessary to achieve that timetable and then you stick to it. Instead, Transport for Wales have tried to arbitrage the market for rolling stock, modifying life-expired 153s, scooping up under-priced mark 4 sets and releasing the more expensive 170s which will command a premium price from competitors. As a result, some of the economically and commercially desirable elements of the original plan now cannot be delivered. They'll also face negative stakeholder pressure.

Releasing the 170s was a win win. Operationally they were oddballs difficult to integrate into the franchise, and there's greater demand for them at other TOCs. Granted, fit the passengers on the HOWL having to put up with 153s instead will be a disappointment, but the railway as a whole it seems like a sensible decision.

It also remains to be seen if the strategy itself even saves money in the long term because 230s and 153s will now need to be replaced at the same time in 6-8 years.

It wouldn't surprise me if some aspect of the MKIV operation needs replacing round about then as well. As I mentioned on one of the other TfW threads, a replacement order for some form of long distance bi-modal stock could replace the MKIVs and also enough 197s to cascade to replace the 153s and 230s.

Splitting all or nearly all of these services at Swansea is a tolerable long term solution. More tolerable than splitting them at Cardiff Central without a connection is going to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2022 ==


There's never really been an imperative for trains from West Wales to run through to anywhere other than Swansea, and some services to Cardiff. However, Swansea (+ Neath + Port Talbot Parkway) is a major traffic generator.

I can't see that being considered acceptable. There would be uproar if West Wales lost most of its direct link to Cardiff, both politically and from the general public.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everyone for your further contributions and I note the comments about relatively few people making through journeys between the Marches/Manchester and places west of Cardiff.

I wondered what difference it would make to anyone who did make such a journey between Hereford and Whitland who could not use the direct service every other hour. On Tuesday 18 October, they could leave Hereford at 16.38 and travel on a through train (probably a nice 175) to arrive Whitland at 19.50 = 3 hours 12 minutes. Following the December change of schedules - the situation would be:>
Depart HFD at 16.39 on the loco hauled Manchester to Cardiff service which arrives CDF at 17.43. (A fast train leaves CDF at 17.47 to arrive Whitland at 19.55 but this is not an advertised connection because a 7 minute transfer gap is not scheduled at CDF all because of a miserly 3 minutes). So, the customer would be told to depart Cardiff at 18.08 on an all stops service to Swansea (arr.19.17) - which will probably a rammed 150 or 153 due to commuters and shoppers leaving Cardiff. At Swansea - dep.19.28, they would have to change trains to a stopper going to Carmarthen - again likely to be a 150 or 153. Having arrived at Carmarthen at 20.23, they would have to change trains yet again and depart at 21.03 to arrive Whitland at 21.19. This gives a total journey time of 4 hours 40 minutes on 4 different trains (some of which will be poor quality 150’s or 153’s) as opposed to the 3 hours 12 minutes that it takes now on one comfortable Class 175 Coradia train.

So, a much longer journey with more hassle and poorer trains all because they can’t throw an extra 3 minutes at Cardiff Central into the schedules. Perhaps TfW don’t want advertised ’tight’ connections at Cardiff because if a train is late and people miss the connection, they will be liable to compensation claims? (I have used Hereford to Whitland as an example but of course this affects everyone who is on the service from Manchester and wishes to progress west of Cardiff).

PS. I wonder why we can’t one through all stops service going west from Cardiff to Pembrokeshire rather than having to change at Swansea and Carmarthen?

 

[craigybagel]

As I've said many times before, TfW is a compromise franchise trying to serve many different markets. There are pros and cons to every timetable change - but for most passengers travelling on the route the extra capacity will be an improvement - and EMR will benefit from the 170s it releases.

And also something I've said before - this timetable is not the finished article. It's a step along the way.

People have been complaining about a lack of capacity on the Marches and across the Wales & Borders franchise as a whole for a decade - and at EMR as well. Whatever the flaws in the December timetable, surely it's better than kicking the can down the road for yet another year?

 

[Watershed]

Granted, fit the passengers on the HOWL having to put up with 153s instead will be a disappointment, but the railway as a whole it seems like a sensible decision.

I think it's rather more than a disappointment, given how poor a customer experience 153s offer, especially when compared to 170s - which from a passenger perspective remain the gold standard of regional trains.

It also simply kicks the can down the road. Why couldn't the 197 order be increased instead? There is no chance the line will ever be electrified, and it's far too long for battery trains. As for hydrogen trains, well let's not even go there.

As I've said many times before, TfW is a compromise franchise trying to serve many different markets. There are pros and cons to every timetable change - but for most passengers travelling on the route the extra capacity will be an improvement - and EMR will benefit from the 170s it releases.

And also something I've said before - this timetable is not the finished article. It's a step along the way.

People have been complaining about a lack of capacity on the Marches and across the Wales & Borders franchise as a whole for a decade - and at EMR as well. Whatever the flaws in the December timetable, surely it's better than kicking the can down the road for yet another year?

It's absolutely a compromise (hence why the current hourly through service can't continue) - but it's the lack of attention to detail here that's causing significant inconvenience to passengers. I haven't looked at the graph, but I'd be amazed if there weren't some way to make all of the connections work.

 

[Starmill]

I can't see that being considered acceptable. There would be uproar if West Wales lost most of its direct link to Cardiff, both politically and from the general public.

Given there's only a two-hourly through service for most of the day at present, which isn't actually changing, it's very unlikely to be noticed. However, the commercial disadvantage arising from losing traffic on the Swansea Bay - Liverpool / Manchester / Leeds / Edinburgh / Glasgow flow is definitely going to be noticeable to TfW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2022 ==

It's absolutely a compromise (hence why the current hourly through service can't continue) - but it's the lack of attention to detail here that's causing significant inconvenience to passengers. I haven't looked at the graph, but I'd be amazed if there weren't some way to make all of the connections work.

To be fair trying to make them work at Cardiff Central probably is a hiding to nothing, because even if you found 7 minutes they'd never hold the connections anyway so people would quickly learn they cannot be trusted. However, offering an 8 - 10 minute connection at Swansea looks much more achievable to me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2022 ==

People have been complaining about a lack of capacity on the Marches and across the Wales & Borders franchise as a whole for a decade - and at EMR as well. Whatever the flaws in the December timetable, surely it's better than kicking the can down the road for yet another year?

The main reason why the Marches line has been so under-capacity in the central section since the pandemic recovery is because of the near total absence of through Manchester - Bristol services. That could have been solved in a number of other ways at much lower cost.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2022 ==

I note the comments about relatively few people making through journeys between the Marches/Manchester and places west of Cardiff.

For the avoidence of doubt this isn't what the data suggest. There's a significant market between Swansea Bay and all of the large cities in England and Scotland. Not quite as big as Cardiff, but significantly bigger than anywhere else in Wales.