Avanti West Coast Class 221 to CrossCountry

[BayPaul]

Okay, I did not realise there was issues with 22x units going into Stanstead. So my idea is most certainly crazy then!

There is also a capacity issue. A 4 car 220 only has 200 seats (174 standard + 26 first). This is the same as a 3 car 170 (191 standard + 9 first), but significantly less than a 2x2car 170 combination.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

221's are possibly one of the most awful long-distance trains in this country. Cramped, short and noisy thanks to a pesky engine under your seat. 80x's have awful, awful seats and are far brighter than a MK3. I really don't see how any long distance train to date built since privatisation is any better than a MK3.

390s have a better ride than a Mk3, even if you don't like the seat.
Mk3s bounce and sway badly and their fixed armrests are purgatory.
Avanti's tilting 221s (5-car) work fine on off-wire WCML routes, and the 805s will have a hard time matching their performance.

 

[quantinghome]

The DfT is, ominously, yet to commit to transferring the released Super Voyagers across to XC.

Where else would they go? Not much point scrapping trains with 15-20 years of useful service life left in them.

 

[A0]

Where else would they go? Not much point scrapping trains with 15-20 years of useful service life left in them.

15-20 years based on what?

How do you know that their planned service life was 40+ years?

And don't say "but the HSTs" - they were completely rebuilt and re-engined - the Voyagers power units and electrics are all 20 years old now - so older in design terms. And I'm not sure an extensive rebuild is likely to be cost effective when set against new hybrid trains to reduce the use of diesel.

 

[Wyrleybart]

15-20 years based on what?

How do you know that their planned service life was 40+ years?

And don't say "but the HSTs" - they were completely rebuilt and re-engined - the Voyagers power units and electrics are all 20 years old now - so older in design terms. And I'm not sure an extensive rebuild is likely to be cost effective when set against new hybrid trains to reduce the use of diesel.

Correct. The blummin things are already falling apart with in service faults everyday. But not surprising as the XC ones rarely standstill. Take a look at the roofs of the XC voyagers and you will see Virgin red under all the soot and crap *. That tells you they haven't had a repaint since at least 2008 - Virgin lost the franchise to Arriva in October 2007

* that is unless the Arriva XC livery spec has a Virgin red roof colour

Heard a rumour or speculation today about where the first Arriva 221s are going to be stored as they leave traffic.

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened.

 

[quantinghome]

15-20 years based on what?

How do you know that their planned service life was 40+ years?

And don't say "but the HSTs" - they were completely rebuilt and re-engined - the Voyagers power units and electrics are all 20 years old now - so older in design terms. And I'm not sure an extensive rebuild is likely to be cost effective when set against new hybrid trains to reduce the use of diesel.

Based on the average length of service of UK trains, I guess. But if it's cheaper to buy something new, fair enough. Or perhaps bump some 5 car Class 800s from GW and LNER.

 

[fgwrich]

Correct. The blummin things are already falling apart with in service faults everyday. But not surprising as the XC ones rarely standstill. Take a look at the roofs of the XC voyagers and you will see Virgin red under all the soot and crap *. That tells you they haven't had a repaint since at least 2008 - Virgin lost the franchise to Arriva in October 2007

* that is unless the Arriva XC livery spec has a Virgin red roof colour

Heard a rumour or speculation today about where the first Arriva 221s are going to be stored as they leave traffic.

I presume you mean Avanti vice Arriva in your last statement.

And not quite - the XC Voyagers have never had a proper repaint, at all, since new. The bodyside's are still in VT Base livery, with various silver patches applied over the years. All they've had done to them is the removal of the small VT >><< >><< arrows along the bodyside, VT logos, and XC Vinyls applied over the top. If you look closely around the cab ends, as per the EMR 222s in Purple, you can see the outlines of the former liveries underneath. The roofs just hid by the dirt - it's either clever work on the part of XC's livery designers, or pure and utter laziness.

 

[Anonymous10]

any news on if xc will get these units

 

[northernbelle]

I presume you mean Avanti vice Arriva in your last statement.

And not quite - the XC Voyagers have never had a proper repaint, at all, since new. The bodyside's are still in VT Base livery, with various silver patches applied over the years. All they've had done to them is the removal of the small VT >><< >><< arrows along the bodyside, VT logos, and XC Vinyls applied over the top. If you look closely around the cab ends, as per the EMR 222s in Purple, you can see the outlines of the former liveries underneath. The roofs just hid by the dirt - it's either clever work on the part of XC's livery designers, or pure and utter laziness.

I don't think 'roof washing' is something many - if any - TOCs do!

 

[fgwrich]

I don't think 'roof washing' is something many - if any - TOCs do!

Perhaps not as regularly, but SWT's Salisbury Depot and Chiltern Railways seemingly used to - Chiltern did a good job of keeping the white roofed 165s rather clean and light, something SWR should be looking at after repainting their 159s light grey (along with the better cleaning of external vehicles!).

Heck, come to think of it, even Virgin West Coast and Avanti manage to do a good job of keeping the roofs of their Voyagers fairly clean and bright red, as this example in 2018 and 2021 shows. But what with XC being part of Arriva, whose cleaning regime across their TOCs has always left something to be desired for, it doesn't surprise me.

180513 - Crawford - VT - 9M56 EDB to EUS

Virgin Trains Class 221 Voyager, 221111, approaches Crawford in the Upper Clyde Valley on 9M56 from Edinburgh Waverley to London Euston.

www.flickr.com

Avanti West Coast Class 221 Voyagers 221104 & 221107 - Euxton.

With both sets having received Avanti branding, but retaining the Virgin red livery on the roof section, Class 221 Voyagers 221104 & 221107 were hammering their way northbound along the Down Fast at Euxton with the 12.34 London Euston to Edinburgh service (9S70) on May 11th 2021. The remaining...

www.flickr.com

 

[A0]

Vinyls applied over the top. If you look closely around the cab ends, as per the EMR 222s in Purple, you can see the outlines of the former liveries underneath. The roofs just hid by the dirt - it's either clever work on the part of XC's livery designers, or pure and utter laziness.

It could be related to the warranty on the paintwork as well - don't forget the 365s stayed in NSE colours for many years because the original paintwork was under warranty - they only got repainted when FCC took over the franchise in 2006.

The Voyagers would have been about 6 years old when Arriva took the franchise.

 

[northernbelle]

Perhaps not as regularly, but SWT's Salisbury Depot and Chiltern Railways seemingly used to - Chiltern did a good job of keeping the white roofed 165s rather clean and light, something SWR should be looking at after repainting their 159s light grey (along with the better cleaning of external vehicles!).

Heck, come to think of it, even Virgin West Coast and Avanti manage to do a good job of keeping the roofs of their Voyagers fairly clean and bright red, as this example in 2018 and 2021 shows. But what with XC being part of Arriva, whose cleaning regime across their TOCs has always left something to be desired for, it doesn't surprise me.

But isn't heavy cleaning of XC Voyagers outsourced to the various depot operators they're serviced at such as Bombardier at Crofton? Not aware of Arriva directly providing the cleaning anywhere except basic overnight cleans at those servicing points which happen to be Arriva-owned - e.g. Bristol Barton Hill and Eastleigh.

I suspect that the answer is simply that red roofs are at odds with XC's own livery and letting them turn naturally brown was a convenient way of dealing with it. I'd probably do the same!

It could be related to the warranty on the paintwork as well - don't forget the 365s stayed in NSE colours for many years because the original paintwork was under warranty - they only got repainted when FCC took over the franchise in 2006.

The Voyagers would have been about 6 years old when Arriva took the franchise.

Yes indeed - paintwork on new trains is designed to last for many years. Not forgetting that the main reason for painting the bodyshell is to protect against corrosion - although the Voyagers aren't looking 'brand new', their paintwork is on the whole in good condition and serving the technical purpose for which it was applied. There are small areas of patch painting where damage has occurred but it wouldn't be particularly noticeable to the majority of passengers.

 

[dereksingh291]

At this rate they’re not even going to be in service until at least December 2023. So looks like the voyagers will be staying a little longer

Where will the Avanti Voyagers go to after December 2023 once Avantis new trains have entered service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where will the Avanti Voyagers go to after December 2023 once Avantis new trains have entered service?

Logic: XC to replace HSTs
Actual: nobody knows

 

[43096]

Logic: XC to replace HSTs

Why is that “logic” when a pair of Voyagers - which is what would be needed to replace an HST - cost more to run than an HST in terms of both fuel and staff costs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is that “logic” when a pair of Voyagers - which is what would be needed to replace an HST - cost more to run than an HST in terms of both fuel and staff costs?

Because HSTs are old and knackered, and some drivers argue not adequately safe.

 

[43096]

Because HSTs are old and knackered, and some drivers argue not adequately safe.

XC evidently disagree with you, judging by the current Modern Railways.

 

[43102EMR]

Why is that “logic” when a pair of Voyagers - which is what would be needed to replace an HST - cost more to run than an HST in terms of both fuel and staff costs?

Because 1) It gives XC a more uniformed fleet on IC services 2) It enables more multiple workings and 3) They’re already maintained at Central Rivers, so the cascade won’t be too complex.

 

[43074]

If XC only leased the two Voyagers which are already off lease from Avanti that would be enough for them to replace their entire HST fleet on the basis of the usual two HST diagrams a day.

Clearly XC have other plans judging by the increase to four HST diagrams from December, but if the Avanti Voyagers were actually going to go to XC I suspect this would already have happened...

 

[takno]

If XC only leased the two Voyagers which are already off lease from Avanti that would be enough for them to replace their entire HST fleet on the basis of the usual two HST diagrams a day.

Even assuming 100% availability, a single Voyager just isn't as big as an HST, so you'd need an absolute minimum of 5 to replace the current diagrams. That said, it's entirely reasonable to say that if some voyagers are sitting off lease and haven't been snapped up by XC yet, then they probably aren't going to be.

 

[43074]

Even assuming 100% availability, a single Voyager just isn't as big as an HST, so you'd need an absolute minimum of 5 to replace the current diagrams. That said, it's entirely reasonable to say that if some voyagers are sitting off lease and haven't been snapped up by XC yet, then they probably aren't going to be.

I think there's an point to which the XC HSTs are used on an operationally practical basis though, as the diagrams are designed around them using Craigentinny, Neville Hill and Laira only. They won't necessarily be replaced on a basis which matches the capacity provided by a 2+7 HST, the Southern Metro cuts show that is by no means a certainty.

 

[RobShipway]

If XC where to use the Avanti 221 trains then they would need at least ten class 221 units to replace the 5 plus HST sets of trains that are with XC.

I think that it is more likely that XC will inherit the class 222 units to certainly replace the HST fleets from next year.

If XC do take the Avanti class 221 fleet, then it is more likely that these will replace the class 170 units within the fleet. But routes where the XC class 170 units operate and either the class 220 or 221 units cannot be operated, then those routes may pass to another operator.

 

[takno]

I think there's an point to which the XC HSTs are used on an operationally practical basis though, as the diagrams are designed around them using Craigentinny, Neville Hill and Laira only. They won't necessarily be replaced on a basis which matches the capacity provided by a 2+7 HST, the Southern Metro cuts show that is by no means a certainty.

While the Souther Metro cuts were probably a bit extreme, they were somewhat justified by a substantial fall in commuter traffic across that network. Any falls in demand on XC at this point are largely being driven by existing cuts in services and a lack of capacity. While I don't believe for a second we can depend on the current government not to do anything stupid, reducing capacity on XC would most certainly be that.

 

[43074]

If XC where to use the Avanti 221 trains then they would need at least ten class 221 units to replace the 5 plus HST sets of trains that are with XC.

Only if they are replaced by double sets, which as I've pointed out isn't necessarily a certainty.

 

[The Planner]

If XC where to use the Avanti 221 trains then they would need at least ten class 221 units to replace the 5 plus HST sets of trains that are with XC.

I think that it is more likely that XC will inherit the class 222 units to certainly replace the HST fleets from next year.

If XC do take the Avanti class 221 fleet, then it is more likely that these will replace the class 170 units within the fleet. But routes where the XC class 170 units operate and either the class 220 or 221 units cannot be operated, then those routes may pass to another operator.

Where are they maintaining them? Some serious ECS mileage if they do get them, which I am not convinced they will.

 

[RobShipway]

Where are they maintaining them? Some serious ECS mileage if they do get them, which I am not convinced they will.

They would be maintained at Central Rivers, as many of the units are now.

 

[Bantamzen]

Of all the speculative ideas on this section of the forum, the idea of the ex-Avanti 221s going to XC should be categorised under the "So utterly obvious, why the hell isn't it nailed on already?" category. The answer sadly is "Because the UK rail industry"...

As a punter who has spent many an unhappy hour rammed into a Voyager with someone's armpit or arse (depending on whether you won the seat lottery that day) in my face, it is absolutely mind bogglingly crazy that this isn't a gimme. Yet instead we are seemingly confronted with pen pushers & accountants sucking air through their teeth, possibly claiming that this isn't "going to be easy guv" like some cheap arsed plumber you hire from down the local. Folk on these forums often wonder why ordinary punters get frustrated at the industry, so imagine the reaction of those on overcrowded XCs if they ever found out in the future that there were perfectly good units going spare but XC couldn't / wouldn't use them.

If these aren't used once they come off lease from Avanti, its beyond a joke.

 

[The Planner]

They would be maintained at Central Rivers, as many of the units are now.

So all of the 221s and 222s will fit at Central Rivers? errrr....

 

[lammergeier]

If XC only leased the two Voyagers which are already off lease from Avanti that would be enough for them to replace their entire HST fleet on the basis of the usual two HST diagrams a day.

Clearly XC have other plans judging by the increase to four HST diagrams from December, but if the Avanti Voyagers were actually going to go to XC I suspect this would already have happened...

Is that right about 4 diagrams in Dec? I've not heard that. Last we understood was that a third diagram was being introduced in May. Hopefully the plan has changed and you're right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2022 ==

Because HSTs are old and knackered, and some drivers argue not adequately safe.

I've not heard one driver at XC argue that they're not adequately safe. Some don't like them for one reason or another but safety doesn't really crop up. Maybe there's one or two who think like that but anecdotally it seems the majority of us enjoy driving them and are looking forward to more diagrams.