How could Middlewich be served if the station was to reopen?

[LOL The Irony]

Everyone at Piccadilly signs Crewe, only some links sign the MCL.

So then it'd probably be a good idea to get more crews to sign the MCL and train the current MCL crews on the Middlewich branch.

 

[daodao]

Crewe to Altrincham/Navigation Road.

Ideally there should be an additional hourly service Crewe-Northwich-Altrincham-Piccadilly, missing out all stations between Northwich and Hale other than Knutsford. However, there would be a significant number of capacity issues to overcome, in particular:

• At Crewe station and between Crewe and Sandbach, at least until HS2b to Manchester is completed
• Platform layout at Northwich station
• Single track sections between Altrincham and Stockport

Sandbach to Altrincham would be easier to implement, but the loss of connectivity to Crewe/Stockport/Piccadilly reduces the potential benefits. I don't expect this development to happen any time soon.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps the promised second Mid-Cheshire service could finally be implemented and run to Sandbach instead of Greenbank and terminate there, calling at a newly opened Middlewich?

 

[6Gman]

Ideally there should be an additional hourly service Crewe-Northwich-Altrincham-Piccadilly, missing out all stations between Northwich and Hale other than Knutsford. However, there would be a significant number of capacity issues to overcome, in particular:

• At Crewe station and between Crewe and Sandbach, at least until HS2b to Manchester is completed
• Platform layout at Northwich station
• Single track sections between Altrincham and Stockport

Sandbach to Altrincham would be easier to implement, but the loss of connectivity to Crewe/Stockport/Piccadilly reduces the potential benefits. I don't expect this development to happen any time soon.

Crewe-Piccadilly is, in my view, the only provision that would offer a decent business case.

Where do Middlewich folk want to go by train?

1. Manchester (for commuting and shopping/ sport/ events).
2. Crewe (for onward connections).

All the other potential flows are small beer. Useful little extras but insufficient to justify a reopening. So if the service terminates at Altrincham and/or Sandbach you blow a big hole in any business case.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Perhaps the promised second Mid-Cheshire service could finally be implemented and run to Sandbach instead of Greenbank and terminate there, calling at a newly opened Middlewich?

Greenbank is needed simply due to the volume of school children, and will help prevent those travel "safe" rent-a-thugs from pushing children to the ground and giving them free dental work.

All the other potential flows are small beer. Useful little extras but insufficient to justify a reopening. So if the service terminates at Altrincham and/or Sandbach you blow a big hole in any business case.

You can't get to Stockport as there's no south facing bays and you can't get to Piccadilly because there aren't any paths. Altrincham is the best compromise as you can at least change onto the Metrolink.

 

[PTR 444]

Perhaps the promised second Mid-Cheshire service could finally be implemented and run to Sandbach instead of Greenbank and terminate there, calling at a newly opened Middlewich?

Could this service go to Greenbank and reverse there, before heading onwards to Middlewich and Crewe?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Could this service go to Greenbank and reverse there, before heading onwards to Middlewich and Crewe?

It could do it at least at school kicking out times.

 

[6Gman]

Greenbank is needed simply due to the volume of school children, and will help prevent those travel "safe" rent-a-thugs from pushing children to the ground and giving them free dental work.

You can't get to Stockport as there's no south facing bays and you can't get to Piccadilly because there aren't any paths. Altrincham is the best compromise as you can at least change onto the Metrolink.

Changing onto the Metrolink might be ok; changing off the Metrolink coming back will be much less attractive given the risk of missing the connection.

I doubt any Middlewich reopening would predate HS2 which should make it more practical.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I doubt any Middlewich reopening would predate HS2 which should make it more practical.

That probably will be the case as it'd allow a south facing bay to be built at Stockport and open up more paths around Piccadilly.

 

[SeanM1997]

I think a potential could be to have 1tph leaving Crewe to Middlewich where a train splits - with 1 half continuing to Chester and 1 half continuing to Manchester Piccadilly. That way, the existing Chester - Manchester Piccadilly route can be sped up by missing some stops since this new route would pick up all stations on the route and therefore the main stations on the line would get 2 trains per hour heading to their closest major city. These services can then join back together at Middlewich on the return, thus not having too many conflicting movements at Crewe as only 1 path used in each direction.

There was talk about a new platform 13 at Crewe with the slow relief lines being used to avoid conflict on the WCML between Shrewsbury and Manchester. If this does come into use, using the lines for an additional Crewe-Manchester service (mentioned above) would mean not conflicting paths across the WCML or current station, and so would not cause issues regarding platform or track capacity, subject to timing of the Shrewsbury-Manchester services.

Whilst you may not think the Chester portion has much requirement - I would argue that across Mid-Cheshire, the fact there is no link to Crewe and the WCML, with all the services that Crewe offers reduces connectivity across the county. Offering this option reduces the need to travel to/from Chester/Stockport and reduces capacity pressure on the existing services

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think a potential could be to have 1tph leaving Crewe to Middlewich where a train splits - with 1 half continuing to Chester and 1 half continuing to Manchester Piccadilly. That way, the existing Chester - Manchester Piccadilly route can be sped up by missing some stops since this new route would pick up all stations on the route and therefore the main stations on the line would get 2 trains per hour heading to their closest major city. These services can then join back together at Middlewich on the return, thus not having too many conflicting movements at Crewe as only 1 path used in each direction.

It should be noted that there is to be a station between Middlewich and Northwich/Greenbank at Gadbrook Park.

Whilst you may not think the Chester portion has much requirement - I would argue that across Mid-Cheshire, the fact there is no link to Crewe and the WCML, with all the services that Crewe offers reduces connectivity across the county. Offering this option reduces the need to travel to/from Chester/Stockport and reduces capacity pressure on the existing services

I believe that when the semi-fast was first announced way back in 2015 (7 years ago now), one of the reasons it only went as far as Greenbank was because there wasn't the demand in the Chester direction.

 

[The Planner]

I think a potential could be to have 1tph leaving Crewe to Middlewich where a train splits - with 1 half continuing to Chester and 1 half continuing to Manchester Piccadilly. That way, the existing Chester - Manchester Piccadilly route can be sped up by missing some stops since this new route would pick up all stations on the route and therefore the main stations on the line would get 2 trains per hour heading to their closest major city. These services can then join back together at Middlewich on the return, thus not having too many conflicting movements at Crewe as only 1 path used in each direction.

There was talk about a new platform 13 at Crewe with the slow relief lines being used to avoid conflict on the WCML between Shrewsbury and Manchester. If this does come into use, using the lines for an additional Crewe-Manchester service (mentioned above) would mean not conflicting paths across the WCML or current station, and so would not cause issues regarding platform or track capacity, subject to timing of the Shrewsbury-Manchester services.

Whilst you may not think the Chester portion has much requirement - I would argue that across Mid-Cheshire, the fact there is no link to Crewe and the WCML, with all the services that Crewe offers reduces connectivity across the county. Offering this option reduces the need to travel to/from Chester/Stockport and reduces capacity pressure on the existing services

The branch needs a massive upgrade to do any of that. The rear train that splits or the first one that is waiting to be coupled up will have a massive wait at Middlewich unless its re-signaled up to Greenbank as its effectively absolute block. Say you get the line speed up to 60mph without touching the signals, you decouple which is probably 2-3 minutes, first train leaves, the second can't leave Middlewich until the first is at the junction at Greenbank which is 4½ miles away which would still likely be a good 5-6 minutes. That means your second train is going to be sat about for 8 minutes. Same applies in the other direction.

In terms of the Crewe suggestion, it was talk and not happening.

 

[Gathursty]

Historically what services did Middlewich have?

 

[daodao]

Historically what services did Middlewich have?

In July 1922, there were 9 local trains per day (Mon-Sat) Sandbach-Northwich, most of which started at Crewe and 5 of which continued to Acton Bridge; some were 3rd class only and some were "railmotors".

Before WW1, there was a through train from Manchester Oxford Road to Crewe via Knutsford, which connected with a London Euston express and had through carriages for at least part of the time it ran.

By August 1946, the local passenger service had been reduced to six trains each way just between Crewe, Middlewich and Northwich, each offering only third class accommodation

 

[apk55]

As well as reinstating sevices to Middlewich the link could benefit many other people who would use the line as a through service. For example where I live (Altrincham) it would be a viable route to Crewe and onward connections rather than going via Manchester or Stockport. For people in Knutsford this would be even more beneficial.

 

[LOL The Irony]

As well as reinstating sevices to Middlewich the link could benefit many other people who would use the line as a through service. For example where I live (Altrincham) it would be a viable route to Crewe and onward connections rather than going via Manchester or Stockport. For people in Knutsford this would be even more beneficial.

Likewise for Northwich, with Chester vice Stockport.

 

[Jack Hay]

I suggest the answer to this is that the necessary infrastructure upgrades to enable 2tph on the Mid Cheshire Line (MCL), which are being investigated now, will happen before Middlewich is re-opened and so the likely service pattern is indeed Piccadilly-Crewe via Altrincham and Middlewich, using the second path on the MCL. The upgrades to Crewe station that are needed to support HS2 have not been finalised yet but it is hard to imagine they won't include more capacity for turning back trains from the Manchester direction (or through running towards Shrewsbury via the independent lines) because that is a significant constraint already, whereas HS2 will require greater capacity for connections at Crewe.

In the other direction, if the Airport Western Link is ever built (see other thread today) then that provides a much more direct route to Manchester than via Stockport.

 

[The Planner]

I suggest the answer to this is that the necessary infrastructure upgrades to enable 2tph on the Mid Cheshire Line (MCL), which are being investigated now, will happen before Middlewich is re-opened and so the likely service pattern is indeed Piccadilly-Crewe via Altrincham and Middlewich, using the second path on the MCL. The upgrades to Crewe station that are needed to support HS2 have not been finalised yet but it is hard to imagine they won't include more capacity for turning back trains from the Manchester direction (or through running towards Shrewsbury via the independent lines) because that is a significant constraint already, whereas HS2 will require greater capacity for connections at Crewe.

In the other direction, if the Airport Western Link is ever built (see other thread today) then that provides a much more direct route to Manchester than via Stockport.

Crewe is nailed down, but will probably get value managed down at some point. Nothing extra from the Manchester side is planned and any through running via the very slow independents would be non stop by default.

 

[Jack Hay]

Crewe is nailed down, but will probably get value managed down at some point. Nothing extra from the Manchester side is planned and any through running via the very slow independents would be non stop by default.

You believe that the Crewe hub design is 'nailed down' - indeed from your previous posts I believe you are a railway professional and so you may be working on the project. I am an outsider but I suggest it is not 'nailed down' for two external reasons:-

1. Local politics. If residents of some towns have to be told "You cannot have a train service to Crewe (and by implication cannot access HS2) because we have designed the new Crewe hub now and it will not be big enough", there is going to be a backlash. MPs for affected towns will turn against the project. Borough Councillors who have been previously supportive will change their minds. Both Cheshire East and Cheshire West borough councils are marginals and councillors don't take risks with voters' perceptions.
2. National politics. There has been no update to the HS2 business case since 2019 and therefore not since the pandemic changed peoples' work patterns, perhaps for good. There is about to be a change of government and the new one is already under huge pressure to increase public spending massively in other areas. It is certain to revisit the HS2 business case and might even cancel the northern part outright.

Therefore there is nothing at all that is 'nailed down' about HS2. Knowing what will happen from here on is a complete guessing game. My guess, for what it's worth (which is no more than anybody else's) is that HS2 will get built as far as Birmingham because it is well advanced now, and it will get cancelled north of there. The Crewe hub project however will survive in some form because the station desperately needs a better track plan and more capacity even without HS2, but the design will be more focussed on local needs (like Middlewich, to return to the thread topic). Influential northern politicians such as Andy Burnham will be appeased with a commitment to build NPR (which he has said he prefers) and he'll be told that, freed from the constraints of HS2, the design for the new Manchester station can be looked at again and may go underground.

I appreciate that I may have gone off-topic here...

 

[The Planner]

You believe that the Crewe hub design is 'nailed down' - indeed from your previous posts I believe you are a railway professional and so you may be working on the project. I am an outsider but I suggest it is not 'nailed down' for two external reasons:-

1. Local politics. If residents of some towns have to be told "You cannot have a train service to Crewe (and by implication cannot access HS2) because we have designed the new Crewe hub now and it will not be big enough", there is going to be a backlash. MPs for affected towns will turn against the project. Borough Councillors who have been previously supportive will change their minds. Both Cheshire East and Cheshire West borough councils are marginals and councillors don't take risks with voters' perceptions.
2. National politics. There has been no update to the HS2 business case since 2019 and therefore not since the pandemic changed peoples' work patterns, perhaps for good. There is about to be a change of government and the new one is already under huge pressure to increase public spending massively in other areas. It is certain to revisit the HS2 business case and might even cancel the northern part outright.

Therefore there is nothing at all that is 'nailed down' about HS2. Knowing what will happen from here on is a complete guessing game. My guess, for what it's worth (which is no more than anybody else's) is that HS2 will get built as far as Birmingham because it is well advanced now, and it will get cancelled north of there. The Crewe hub project however will survive in some form because the station desperately needs a better track plan and more capacity even without HS2, but the design will be more focussed on local needs (like Middlewich, to return to the thread topic). Influential northern politicians such as Andy Burnham will be appeased with a commitment to build NPR (which he has said he prefers) and he'll be told that, freed from the constraints of HS2, the design for the new Manchester station can be looked at again and may go underground.

I appreciate that I may have gone off-topic here...

Yes, I work on the railway but not on the project. Its nailed down and detailed design is taking place for delivery. Crewe is a NR renewal that is accomodating the arrival of HS2. Its not a HS2 scheme. If phase 2A is cancelled (unlikely) then the only thing that would be removed is the Basford Hall remodelling. The scheme has already started anyway with the Independent lines resignalling.
HS2 phase 1 doesnt end at Birmingham, it ends at Handsacre, north of Lichfield, so even if it gets cancelled then we are knackered as Colwich won't work.

 

[Jack Hay]

Thanks for the extra information, Planner. I think my point no. 1 still stands because when the public and local politicians find out that Crewe is being remodelled to accommodate HS2, but not to accommodate extra local services, there's going to be a backlash. It won't matter then whose project it is. I do understand your point about Colwich Jn. However, if HS2a/2b were to be cancelled because the forecast growth has reduced, then the future train service will have to be re-planned, and will be less frequent than current plans assume.

 

[The Planner]

Thanks for the extra information, Planner. I think my point no. 1 still stands because when the public and local politicians find out that Crewe is being remodelled to accommodate HS2, but not to accommodate extra local services, there's going to be a backlash. It won't matter then whose project it is. I do understand your point about Colwich Jn. However, if HS2a/2b were to be cancelled because the forecast growth has reduced, then the future train service will have to be re-planned, and will be less frequent than current plans assume.

The new layout will be capable of all sorts, there is more flexibility there with new parallel moves and platforms on the high side etc.. but its designed to a post HS2 train service spec and local politicians, councils etc are well aware of it and have been for a long time. I still think you are looking at the growth in a short time scale, all we will likely be doing with cancelling is kicking the problem down the road. If 2A is cancelled, old designs for Colwich will being dusted off rapidly and criticisms galore as we are re-signaling it in Summer 2023 which won't account for any changes.

 

[Jack Hay]

More flexibility in the Crewe layout... that's interesting, thank you again. Perhaps we aren't as far apart in our opinions as it first appeared. I would like to see the new layout. is it published anywhere yet? As to whether I am looking at growth in a short time scale - yes, I probably am. The difficulty, though, is that the medium and long term are much more uncertain than they were. If I was a politician (I'm not) contemplating very large spending in very constrained financial circumstances, i think I would hesitate before committing to future HS2 stages now.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks for the extra information, Planner. I think my point no. 1 still stands because when the public and local politicians find out that Crewe is being remodelled to accommodate HS2, but not to accommodate extra local services, there's going to be a backlash. It won't matter then whose project it is. I do understand your point about Colwich Jn. However, if HS2a/2b were to be cancelled because the forecast growth has reduced, then the future train service will have to be re-planned, and will be less frequent than current plans assume.

As a resident of the Crewe area and a former "local politician" in the area (20+ years a councillor) I suspect any backlash will be limited in scale, and even smaller in impact.

Thinking specifically of Middlewich they elect 3 (out of 82) councillors on Cheshire East Council so although I'm sure there will be angry comments to the local press I doubt it will have any impact on decisions made.

 

[The Planner]

More flexibility in the Crewe layout... that's interesting, thank you again. Perhaps we aren't as far apart in our opinions as it first appeared. I would like to see the new layout. is it published anywhere yet? As to whether I am looking at growth in a short time scale - yes, I probably am. The difficulty, though, is that the medium and long term are much more uncertain than they were. If I was a politician (I'm not) contemplating very large spending in very constrained financial circumstances, i think I would hesitate before committing to future HS2 stages now.

I will call on @swt_passenger and their forum searching skills for the video presentation.

 

[swt_passenger]

I will call on @swt_passenger and their forum searching skills for the video presentation.

Is this it? I still haven’t watched it all the way through though…

HS2 - What will happen next

There's zero chance this government would cancel the eastern leg (as exists in the current plans) as the Tories would be decimated across the East Midlands

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[The Planner]

Is this it? I still haven’t watched it all the way through though…

HS2 - What will happen next

There's zero chance this government would cancel the eastern leg (as exists in the current plans) as the Tories would be decimated across the East Midlands

www.railforums.co.uk

That's the one.

 

[Jack Hay]

As a resident of the Crewe area and a former "local politician" in the area (20+ years a councillor) I suspect any backlash will be limited in scale, and even smaller in impact.

Thinking specifically of Middlewich they elect 3 (out of 82) councillors on Cheshire East Council so although I'm sure there will be angry comments to the local press I doubt it will have any impact on decisions made.

It only needs Labour to lose a few councils seats to lose control of Cheshire East again, however. That's how it starts to have an effect. Same in Cheshire West. Middlewich is not the only town affected,

 

[Almyle503]

If passenger services were brought back to the 'Middlewich branch' between Sandbach and Northwich with the reopening of Middlewich Station, what would be the best way to incorporate the new service into the existing timetable and which TOC should run it?

Would a service from Northwich to Crewe work?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Would a service from Northwich to Crewe work?

Very limited platforming options at Crewe.