Is the Oyster system now closed to new extensions?

[Kite159]

And also astonishingly difficult to see how those conditions could be communicated by letter to everyone involved...

Especially at how many unregistered oyster cards there is, can't send a letter to an address which has never been given by someone getting an oyster card from a machine.

 

[Horizon22]

I doubt that Oyster will be expanding the focus is on Contactless now

All well and good, but somehow a system needs to be worked out with discounts which I imagine requires bank cooperation and sounds like a complete minefield. Also children don't tend to have bank cards, another issue.

Isn't the Oyster zones limit something to do with hexadecimal system?

 

[matt_world2004]

Zone 15 was reserved for the Elizabeth line out to Reading but didn't get used.

If you ask for a an extension ticket to zone 15 to Heathrow airport from an Elizabeth line station it lists it at zone 0 or 15

 

[Alex365Dash]

Isn't the Oyster zones limit something to do with hexadecimal system?

As I understand it, it's more to do with the limits of storing zones as a binary 4-bit number, as 4 bits can only store 0 to 15 inclusive, and binary numbers are what computers actually handle rather than base-10 numbers.
I imagine your confusion might come from a singular hexadecimal digit having the same capacity as 4 bits in binary?

 

[Horizon22]

As I understand it, it's more to do with the limits of storing zones as a binary 4-bit number, as 4 bits can only store 0 to 15 inclusive, and binary numbers are what computers actually handle rather than base-10 numbers.
I imagine your confusion might come from a singular hexadecimal digit having the same capacity as 4 bits in binary?

Possibly - I knew it was 16 either way.

 

[etr221]

The problem is that there will always be some people who do not have a contactless bank card, for one reason or another.

If TfL wish to get rid of the Oyster card, they will have to find a solution for those who do not have a contactless bank card, who will otherwise be excluded from the transport network.

Considering the number of people who use TfL, 1% or 2% of travellers is still a substantial amount of people.

I have picked up the idea that there is a plan for a 'new generation' Oyster Card (TfL issued) which will function the same way (as far as the Oyster/Contactless system is concerned) as a Bank/Financial Institution Contactless card - but at the end of day, after the day's 'bill' has been calculated, it will be deducted from the holder's Oyster balance stored in the backend system (rather than on the card). Or there is the possibility that it could be linked to a bank, etc. account from which funds could be drawn. (This is I think what the GW Bristal area PAYG system is doing).

The advantage - for the railway/TfL - is that it is THEIR card, so they can set its conditions of use, such as only to be used by the issuee (registered holder), which they cannot for a bank card, as the bank's conditions apply.

 

[JonathanH]

The advantage - for the railway/TfL - is that it is THEIR card, so they can set its conditions of use, such as only to be used by the issuee (registered holder), which they cannot for a bank card, as the bank's conditions apply.

That may be true but I thought that Contactless was actually cheaper for TfL to operate than Oyster.

 

[Trainbike46]

When contactless is 98% of transactions? 99%?

Do you have any data to back that up?

I was just typing in a question about railcards when the above two posts popped up. So, giver there is a fraudulent discount issue with railcards, is this seriously being addressed, or it there an agenda to hope that such discounts fade away as they are in the 'too difficult' box so let's drive them out?

I suspect the solution will be something like a TfL-issued card that uses the same backend processing as the contactless payments do, both for people who can't/don't want to use contactless bank cards and people with various discounts (children/railcard etc.). But I'm not involved so I don't know what is actually happening behind the scenes.
Ideally you would be able to use the current oyster cards for that, and just use them as an identifier - no need to ask people to switch out cards that way

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

I have picked up the idea that there is a plan for a 'new generation' Oyster Card (TfL issued) which will function the same way (as far as the Oyster/Contactless system is concerned) as a Bank/Financial Institution Contactless card - but at the end of day, after the day's 'bill' has been calculated, it will be deducted from the holder's Oyster balance stored in the backend system (rather than on the card). Or there is the possibility that it could be linked to a bank, etc. account from which funds could be drawn. (This is I think what the GW Bristal area PAYG system is doing).

The advantage - for the railway/TfL - is that it is THEIR card, so they can set its conditions of use, such as only to be used by the issuee (registered holder), which they cannot for a bank card, as the bank's conditions apply.

Just saw this, sounds like a sensible plan. I was wondering, would you need to use new cards for this, or could the backend processing of existing cards be changed over?

 

[etr221]

I suspect the solution will be something like a TfL-issued card that uses the same backend processing as the contactless payments do, both for people who can't/don't want to use contactless bank cards and people with various discounts (children/railcard etc.). But I'm not involved so I don't know what is actually happening behind the scenes.
Ideally you would be able to use the current oyster cards for that, and just use them as an identifier - no need to ask people to switch out cards that way

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==


Just saw this, sounds like a sensible plan. I was wondering, would you need to use new cards for this, or could the backend processing of existing cards be changed over?

I think it will require - or at least be much simpler with - new cards. But changeover could be phased over time - potentially years.

 

[MikeWh]

Do you have any data to back that up?

The bit you quoted was a question, asking when the poster thought that non-contactless payments might be deemed irrelevant.

 

[jon81uk]

They could say that but they would be in breach of contract, because the Oyster conditions that people signed up to do not state an expiry date for credit.

Royal Mail are currently swapping out all standard stamps for barcoded versions, but the old ones were thought to last forever, they now need to be swapped or used by January 2023.
It is possible to remove outdated technology if needed and as and when TfL need to get rid of Oyster I expect a large scale communication campaign with a two year deadline to cash in old cards would be fine.

 

[swt_passenger]

Royal Mail are currently swapping out all standard stamps for barcoded versions, but the old ones were thought to last forever, they now need to be swapped or used by January 2023.
It is possible to remove outdated technology if needed and as and when TfL need to get rid of Oyster I expect a large scale communication campaign with a two year deadline to cash in old cards would be fine.

They could even have a system like that for dormant savings accounts. I think that’s effectively what unused PAYG funds are.

 

[Watershed]

Royal Mail are currently swapping out all standard stamps for barcoded versions, but the old ones were thought to last forever, they now need to be swapped or used by January 2023.
It is possible to remove outdated technology if needed and as and when TfL need to get rid of Oyster I expect a large scale communication campaign with a two year deadline to cash in old cards would be fine.

The fact that organisations sometimes do it doesn't mean it's no longer a breach of contract.

Royal Mail have clearly taken the decision that they would rather deal with (at worst) a few low value claims than continue to support old-fashioned stamps. There is nothing, in theory, stopping TfL from doing the same - but it would be a breach of contract all the same.

 

[Haywain]

The fact that organisations sometimes do it doesn't mean it's no longer a breach of contract.

Royal Mail have clearly taken the decision that they would rather deal with (at worst) a few low value claims than continue to support old-fashioned stamps. There is nothing, in theory, stopping TfL from doing the same - but it would be a breach of contract all the same.

It would be a breach if they refused to pay them back, but they can simply set aside a contingency for the (likely) very small number of claims and remove the ability to do it through machines. I would guess they could disable inactive cards to force people down that route.

 

[Watershed]

It would be a breach if they refused to pay them back, but they can simply set aside a contingency for the (likely) very small number of claims and remove the ability to do it through machines. I would guess they could disable inactive cards to force people down that route.

There is no facility in the Oyster Conditions of Use for TfL to arbitrarily decide to stop Oyster cards from working. Thus doing so is a breach of contract.

However, given that damages are likely to be limited to the value of any credit or ticket held on the Oyster card, most claims will be of a low value and so it could be seen as a low-risk strategy.

 

[infobleep]

I doubt that Oyster will be expanding the focus is on Contactless now

Which doesn't support discount cards.

 

[Haywain]

Which doesn't support discount cards.

Yet.

 

[Horizon22]

Yet.

Surely a massive hurdle to overcome though? Perhaps progress is being made but I see it being a a major regulatory nightmare.

 

[londonbridge]

And also astonishingly difficult to see how those conditions could be communicated by letter to everyone involved...

In days gone by I would have said public notices in newspapers…..but obviously in the digital age readership of printed newspapers has declined, so…..

Notices on the TFL website

Notices on the appropriate TOC websites

Notices on buses and tubes, and at bus, tube and national rail stations

Notices at Oyster retailers, newsagents and such.

That would probably be enough that the majority of Oyster users would see or read it SOMEWHERE, although of course there’s the cost of producing thousands of notices and publicity material to take into account.

 

[Starmill]

In days gone by I would have said public notices in newspapers…..but obviously in the digital age readership of printed newspapers has declined, so…..

Notices on the TFL website

Notices on the appropriate TOC websites

Notices on buses and tubes, and at bus, tube and national rail stations

Notices at Oyster retailers, newsagents and such.

That would probably be enough that the majority of Oyster users would see or read it SOMEWHERE, although of course there’s the cost of producing thousands of notices and publicity material to take into account.

And the opportunity cost of advertising space if any has to be sacrificed for the message, which is likely. Also it's likely that the Evening Standard / Metro would still have circulation so advertising space there too.

 

[matt_world2004]

And the opportunity cost of advertising space if any has to be sacrificed for the message, which is likely.

TfL wouldn't have to withdraw oyster cards even if they wanted to replace them . Set the legacy oyster system to charge the highest possible fare from the station if touched in eg (London to reading ) and then advise the customer they can contact customer services for a free new card and to get any excess they paid over what would have been the typical fare.

Keep oyster capability on flat fare services like the tram or bus network

 

[jon81uk]

Surely a massive hurdle to overcome though? Perhaps progress is being made but I see it being a a major regulatory nightmare.

Why would it be that much worse than it is currently with Oyster?
Right now if you have a railcard, you go to a member of staff who bring up their menu in a ticket machine and add the discount to the Oystercard.
Can't see why it couldn't be enabled so that staff can bring up a customers card on a handheld device after tapping the bank card and add the railcard discount to that card on their account. It would work almost exactly the same, just needs the technology to be set up.

 

[SynthD]

It would work almost exactly the same, just needs the technology to be set up.

Yes, it just needs bank cards to hold info. They won’t. One problem is that some cards, some payment devices, can change their number.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, it just needs bank cards to hold info. They won’t.

No, it needs a way of connecting a contactless payment card or device to an account and prompt for revenue protection to check a railcard.

 

[jon81uk]

Yes, it just needs bank cards to hold info. They won’t. One problem is that some cards, some payment devices, can change their number.

All the contactless processing is done on TfLs backend system later, the bank card doesn't need to hold anything just the user account.
The member of staff sets it in the user account that when the card ending 1234 is used then railcard discount should be applied until X date. Then the system works it out. The user needs to ensure they always use that card and not a different device.

In fact there is nothing stopping someone showing the same railcard currently to different staff with different Oyster cards and getting the discount set on multiple Oyster card, then multiple people can use the Oyster with the discount.
Whereas if it is linked to their TfL account that would mean only one contactless card per account per railcard as the system could flag that a railcard discount is already present on that TfL account.

 

[Hadders]

With Oyster the railcard discount is flagged on the card itself, so in the event of the Oyster card being scanned during a revenue inspection the officer’s handset will show that there is a railcard discount set, triggering a request for the railcard to be shown.

If the railcard is only stored in the back-end system this prompt won’t be shown.

 

[paul1609]

My Key Card has Key Go linked to my veterans railcard. I think it only shows the station I started my journey at not any railcard details. I dont understand why a contactless card would be any different?

 

[mattdickinson]

My Key Card has Key Go linked to my veterans railcard. I think it only shows the station I started my journey at not any railcard details. I dont understand why a contactless card would be any different?

Linking a railcard to KeyGo is a manual process which TfL probably wouldn't consider to be scalable.

 

[miklcct]

With Oyster the railcard discount is flagged on the card itself, so in the event of the Oyster card being scanned during a revenue inspection the officer’s handset will show that there is a railcard discount set, triggering a request for the railcard to be shown.

If the railcard is only stored in the back-end system this prompt won’t be shown.

In contactless systems, the list of registered discounts (in token form) can be downloaded onto an inspector's device in the office. The requirement is that the discount is only active a day after registration, as in the case in the Stockholm system.

 

[jon81uk]

Linking a railcard to KeyGo is a manual process which TfL probably wouldn't consider to be scalable.

Linking a railcard to Oyster was fairly manual too, needed staff to do it at a ticket machine.