Is the use of cash dying out?

[Busaholic]

That's an artificial vision program running in a data centre somewhere. Again, very little cost compared to someone's wages.
On the contrary. If it didn't have the potential to save money they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

How many wonderful potential money-saving new technology systems have been inaugurated to huge fanfares by our government (including its agents), the NHS, NGOs and large private companies over the last two decades and more, only to either collapse ignominiously years later, never work in the first place or bring only a fraction of the 'benefits' claimed? All charged and written off to the poor customer or taxpayer of course. Your faith in all this is, at best, misplaced.

 

[najaB]

How many wonderful potential money-saving new technology systems have been inaugurated to huge fanfares by our government (including its agents), the NHS, NGOs and large private companies over the last two decades and more, only to either collapse ignominiously years later, never work in the first place or bring only a fraction of the 'benefits' claimed?

Correct. It's potentially a cost-saving measure, but perhaps instead of trialling it to see if it works the companies would be better off to hire you as a consultant since you appear to know - for a fact - that it will not work.

 

[Dai Corner]

Correct. It's potentially a cost-saving measure, but perhaps instead of trialling it to see if it works the companies would be better off to hire you as a consultant since you appear to know - for a fact - that it will not work.

If only an ancestor of @Busaholic had been in Merthyr Tydfil in 1804 and told everyone Trevithick's steam powered contraption would never work the taxpayer wouldn't now be saddled with the cost of running the railways.

 

[skyhigh]

How many wonderful potential money-saving new technology systems have been inaugurated to huge fanfares by our government (including its agents), the NHS, NGOs and large private companies over the last two decades and more, only to either collapse ignominiously years later, never work in the first place or bring only a fraction of the 'benefits' claimed? All charged and written off to the poor customer or taxpayer of course. Your faith in all this is, at best, misplaced.

So because there's only a potential it saves money, a private company shouldn't bother in case it doesn't save money? Should everything just be frozen as-is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody has answered my simple question - is access denied to anyone not with an enabled app?

Yes. It is a totally app based setup like the Amazon store almost diagonally opposite it. There are no traditional checkouts.

Outside there is invariably a small collection of puzzled looking people with their heads in their phones. Personally I don't think it is a good model even if I would be totally happy were cash to be abolished entirely, and I normally choose to use self checkouts in preference to staffed ones.

 

[najaB]

Personally I don't think it is a good model even if I would be totally happy were cash to be abolished entirely, and I normally choose to use self checkouts in preference to staffed ones.

I'm on the fence about it - but they represent a way that smaller convenience stores can be kept open where they otherwise would not, then on balance they might be a good thing.

 

[Busaholic]

Correct. It's potentially a cost-saving measure, but perhaps instead of trialling it to see if it works the companies would be better off to hire you as a consultant since you appear to know - for a fact - that it will not work.

It won't cost them much. I'd write them a letter stating 'The chances of this being a success are so remote and, in any case, will only lead to years of strife with both your remaining employees and with most of the sentient population if they retain a choice of shopping destinations, just ditch it now and do us all a favour. Please reimburse me for the postage stamp used.'

Just been reading today's Sunday Times. An article in the magazine by a young, trendy male whose name was Matt something (isn't it always?) which started with his experience of The Queue which quickly became obvious was about his experience at his local Sainsbury's self-scan tills, made much worse since the human tills were halved recently. In fact, because of 'technological issues', only one was in use. He quite rightly analysed the reason why it can take so much longer to use self-service, even if you don't need to wait for an employee to verify your age at some stage, and even if there's sufficient space to deal with a trolley full of shopping. As he says, once you've scanned something it has to meet what he called the 'paranoid Android' test i.e. the scales have to agree that any suspicion you're trying to defraud them hasn't happened on this occasion, and this adds precious seconds with every item before you continue. He's now going to Aldi for his shopping. Then Rod Little, always worth reading imo, with his take on such things. The worm is turning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm on the fence about it - but they represent a way that smaller convenience stores can be kept open where they otherwise would not, then on balance they might be a good thing.

I can't see a way in which you could have one that was totally staffless. If you need a security guard, which you do, they can easily be multiskilled to oversee a few self checkouts.

I think the viable model for "village shops" if you mean that sort of thing is volunteers running them rather than commercial profit making businesses. I have seen some great examples, and you only need a few bored pensioners to cover it opening daily, doing one day each a week.

 

[Bald Rick]

How many wonderful potential money-saving new technology systems have been inaugurated to huge fanfares by our government (including its agents), the NHS, NGOs and large private companies over the last two decades and more, only to either collapse ignominiously years later, never work in the first place or bring only a fraction of the 'benefits' claimed? All charged and written off to the poor customer or taxpayer of course. Your faith in all this is, at best, misplaced.

Remind me how you are communicating this theory to us. Seems to work ok!

 

[najaB]

I can't see a way in which you could have one that was totally staffless. If you need a security guard, which you do, they can easily be multiskilled to oversee a few self checkouts.

Security guards tend to be outsourced though, so it's unlikely the retailer would upskill them to oversee self-service checkouts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Security guards tend to be outsourced though, so it's unlikely the retailer would upskill them to oversee self-service checkouts.

Unless alcohol was not on sale they'd at least need someone to deal with that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nobody has answered my simple question - is access denied to anyone not with an enabled app?

What on earth is an app (let alone an enabled one)...

Is this something that I might have used and being 77 years old, have forgotten?

 

[JamesT]

What on earth is an app (let alone an enabled one)...

Is this something that I might have used and being 77 years old, have forgotten?

An app is short for an application. Usually associated with programs you load onto and run on a smartphone.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

An app is short for an application. Usually associated with programs you load onto and run on a smartphone.

Oh dear...I neither have a smartphone nor a mobile phone, but find I can enjoy life to the full with the landline phone at the age of 77.

 

[Gloster]

What on earth is an app (let alone an enabled one)...

Is this something that I might have used and being 77 years old, have forgotten?

You load apps on to smart ‘phones. It is a bit like getting another thing you can do with it, mostly involving paying money or providing information on your lifestyle to others. You install the app by downloading it, which then allows you to access the Internet service provided by a company. I think that is it, but I do not have a smart ‘phone (just a basic cheapo) and have never knowingly downloaded an app. I think that that is all correct, but then I don’t use the things: there are loads on my small iPad that I have never tried to use, although I have accidentally taken photos of my knees.

 

[Dai Corner]

Desktop computers run app(lication) software too. You're using one now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Desktop computers run app(lication) software too. You're using one now.

Thanks for that information. I never knew that my trusty HP Pavilion desktop computer that my sons bought for me about five years ago to replace the one I had for donkey's years had such a thing. I seem to have managed to use it without the knowledge that it was there, but there are lots of files in my computer operating system that my computer engineer who calls annually (free of charge as this was one of my retirement perks in 2010) says are there, but never to access.

In response to the thread question "Is the use of cash dying out", I just hope that I pop my proverbial clogs before that happens.

 

[Hadders]

The Holborn Tesco is definitely still like that as of about 2 weeks ago.

I walked past it today and it's still app only.

I've been to one of the Amazon convenience stores and there are definitely no tills there. You have to scan a barcode to enter the shop.

Yes, same format as the Tesco Express. There are lots of Amazon Fresh stores like this across London.

It isn't as much about saving staffing costs, but about improving inventory accuracy. One of the issues for all shops is making sure the inventory is correct - the move to self-checkout and scan and go technology in shops introduces more ways for inventory to become corrupted (although store staff on traditional checkouts make enough mistakes of their own). Inventory corruption means gaps on shalves and loss of sales.

I've used the Tesco and Amazon stores a number of times and I've not come across any charging issues, even though I've tried hard to create them!

 

[DelayRepay]

Your last sentence is palpable nonsense I'm afraid. The whole shebang will be costing them far more than keeping two or three peopled checkouts going plus a few self -service ones, aside from the many lost potential and actual customers.

I guess this is why Tesco have decided to run the trial, in one store. They can work out whether it is worth doing - from both a cost and customer satisfaction point of view.

 

[Mojo]

I don't believe there are now any card only supermarkets anywhere in the U.K., of the major groups anyway. Sainsbury's opened the first card only supermarket in Holborn, on the edge of the City of London, a few years ago and coincidentally(?) the firm had a series on the BBC at the time following their operations. It was not just card only, every item removed by a customer from the shelf and put into their basket was observed by a mountain of cameras and tallied up ready for the 'check-out.' The store was deliberately chosen as being optimal for the (initial three month) experiment. It was clear from what was shown that, from the start, this wasn't going to work, with many office workers just wanting to grab a banana and go, and it all taking far too long. After a short while, an unadvertised till at Customer Services had to be re-opened taking cash and doing scanning, with a queue of up to twenty people at times. What Sainsbury's had thought was going to be a free P.R. exercise for the firm, following the uncritical one on Iceland which preceded it, showed them with egg on their faces. The M.D. had to admit the experiment had not been a success, was removed from the branch and would not be 'rolled out' elsewhere as they originally planned.

IIRC the shop on the TV was a different concept, whereby you had to use their ‘SmartShop’ App to scan each item, before paying on your phone and leaving.

The thing you’re thinking of is the ‘Just Walk Out’ technology from Amazon, of which Sainsbury’s is a third party partner to.

The trial on the TV and the trial of this technology is actually being done in the same shop; opposite their HQ and also opposite a “normal” Sainsbury’s Local shop.

As an aside, I often use the SmartShop App at Sainsbury’s in the local branches because you get special prices on your Nectar App. In the real supermarkets you take them to a self service or a real checkout to pay, but at the locals you pay straight from your phone by Apple Pay, without going to a till. Makes me feel very uncomfortable and I always feel like I need to speak to a staff member before leaving else I be accused of shoplifting!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess this is why Tesco have decided to run the trial, in one store. They can work out whether it is worth doing - from both a cost and customer satisfaction point of view.

And in a place where it is unlikely anyone will want to pay cash. And to directly compete with Amazon's store.

As an aside, I often use the SmartShop App at Sainsbury’s in the local branches because you get special prices on your Nectar App. In the real supermarkets you take them to a self service or a real checkout to pay, but at the locals you pay straight from your phone by Apple Pay, without going to a till. Makes me feel very uncomfortable and I always feel like I need to speak to a staff member before leaving else I be accused of shoplifting!

I would feel better if such shops had a "gateline" you scanned to exit so you could be sure you had paid.

 

[DelayRepay]

And in a place where it is unlikely anyone will want to pay cash. And to directly compete with Amazon's store.

And a place where there are other Tesco stores a very short walk away for people who do not want to use the new technology.

But I think these cashless stores are the future. For Tesco not to experiment would have been like banks in the 1960s/1970s saying they didn't need to develop ATMs because everyone preferred to visit the bank during its limited opening hours and queue up to cash a cheque.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But I think these cashless stores are the future. For Tesco not to experiment would have been like banks in the 1960s/1970s saying they didn't need to develop ATMs because everyone preferred to visit the bank during its limited opening hours and queue up to cash a cheque.

But Britain was not the only large country where the introduction of ATMs were introduced in that time period.

 

[johncrossley]

But Britain was not the only large country where the introduction of ATMs were introduced in that time period.

Why is this relevant? And why is the size of the country relevant?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And a place where there are other Tesco stores a very short walk away for people who do not want to use the new technology.

But I think these cashless stores are the future. For Tesco not to experiment would have been like banks in the 1960s/1970s saying they didn't need to develop ATMs because everyone preferred to visit the bank during its limited opening hours and queue up to cash a cheque.

I think cashless stores are the future, I am less convinced that checkoutless ones are (though those checkouts are likely to be self service ones plus scanning on phones on the way round). But we shall see.

If RFID chips get cheaper I could see there being a tag on everything so checkout being vastly simplified (like how Decathlon do - you put the basket in a slot and it immediately rings everything up without scanning) and this sort of thing being an easier option to implement, though.

 

[Edsmith]

I picked up a leaflet the other day warning of the perils of a cashless society calling it an attack our human rights, no financial privacy etc. Whilst I can understand their point I very rarely use cash anymore, my local barber is still cash only although they admit that they'll have to start accepting cards before long. Greggs bakers went cashless during the pandemic (at least some stores) but they they lost so much custom that they had to go back to accepting cash and apparently takings are down by 40% at the De Bradelei Wharf shopping centre in Dover since the car park was made RingGo only, many senior citizens regard it as ageist.

 

[DelayRepay]

But Britain was not the only large country where the introduction of ATMs were introduced in that time period.

Well yes, although the first ATM in the world was installed at a branch of Barclays in Enfield.

But I don't understand your point; other countries are also developing cashless supermarkets. I believe the Amazon Fresh model has been imported from the US, and is the model the trial Sainsburys store is following (they are using Amazon's tech under license).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

I picked up a leaflet the other day warning of the perils of a cashless society calling it an attack our human rights, no financial privacy etc. Whilst I can understand their point I very rarely use cash anymore, my local barber is still cash only although they admit that they'll have to start accepting cards before long. Greggs bakers went cashless during the pandemic (at least some stores) but they they lost so much custom that they had to go back to accepting cash and apparently takings are down by 40% at the De Bradelei Wharf shopping centre in Dover since the car park was made RingGo only, many senior citizens regard it as ageist.

Cash will remain an option for now, but may become more inconvenient as some businesses go cashless.

But in the medium term, as older people die and younger people, who've grown up with tech become older, cashless will become the norm.

I was involved in development of a savings account for children about 10 years ago. It was said even then that they were the first generation for whom cash wouldn't ever be their primary means of payment.

 

[johncrossley]

Maybe banks will get rid of physical bankcards in the medium term and expect customers to have their own contactless payment device? Chip & PIN readers could be replaced by contactless only readers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has there been any recent Governmental statement made concerning the future end-period of cash in Britain and have any other large economic blocs made similar statements?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

Maybe banks will get rid of physical bankcards in the medium term and expect customers to have their own contactless payment device? Chip & PIN readers could be replaced by contactless only readers.

I have just received my new 5-year contactless debit bank card, but once activated, my bank has insisted that I make a purchase using my pin number to fully activate the contactless function of the card.

 

[DelayRepay]

Maybe banks will get rid of physical bankcards in the medium term and expect customers to have their own contactless payment device? Chip & PIN readers could be replaced by contactless only readers.

I don't think we're many years away from this situation. I would expect that in the next couple of years, a card will be an optional extra feature that you can request, but is not automatically provided. Rather like chequebooks are now for most banks. You used to be sent one automatically when you opened a new account, now you have to specifically ask for one from most of the banks.

Obviously before this can become widespread, ATMs will have to be modified (although my bank, NatWest, allow me to generate a code in their mobile app, that I can use to withdraw cash from their ATMs without my card - this would need to be extended to work across all ATMs), and there will still need to be cards for overseas in countries who are not moving as quickly as we are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

Has there been any recent Governmental statement made concerning the future end-period of cash in Britain and have any other large economic blocs made similar statements?

I don't think the government need to make a statement. The shift away from cash will happen naturally as people and business make more and more use of electronic payments. I don't think the cashless society will ever mean an end to physical cash, it's just it won't be very common and people won't want to deal with it (a bit like cheques now - they still exist but they are nowhere near as popular as they used to be).

I have just received my new 5-year contactless debit bank card, but once activated, my bank has insisted that I make a purchase using my pin number to fully activate the contactless function of the card.

Remember that with a physical card you will always have to enter the PIN occasionally even if you only make low value transactions. This doesn't apply if you load the card to a mobile wallet.