Brussels Eurostar > ICE connection time

[AdamWW]

Could it be that you meant to mention the inter-platform subway half way down the E* platforms at Midi?

My interpretation was:

"When I used to travel London to Cologne regularly, and there was passport control at Midi, the inter-platform subway was a real life-saver...."

 

[nw1]

Based on doing what you're planning to do over 3-4 occasions in the past year: about 6-8 minutes between trains is about the fastest it can be done. Best to be in front 8 coaches if possible: there is a passageway that was put to ease the connection at the midpoint of the platform, but this has been shut for security reasons for some years. Although in general there has been no security all pax are funelled through an area beneath Platforms 3/4 where they can be inspected if the security is tightened (it's up to the Belgian authorities what security they impose on any given day). Also, the Belgian customs are there some times presumably looking for drugs, stolen goods and people moving more than EUR 50,000 between EU member states, without filling out the official forms.

I've done the connection at Brussels a few times now and there was never any border-related bureaucracy on Germany or Netherlands-bound trains or even threat of it. Similar, no bureaucracy at Cologne going the other way, either. But perhaps I just got lucky.

The 3rd time I did this journey, the ES was about 8 mins late due to something weird near Halle and the ICE wasn't held. So I had a 2 hour wait. The non-ICE option is OK, but the shuttle from Welkenraedt to Aachen is one of the oldest EMUs on SNCB/NMBS and it really feels like a museum piece.

Is that one of those "boxy" EMUs? Seen those at Liege and they almost look like a 2BIL. Doubt they're quite that old, though, given BILs disappeared circa 1970...

Another time, the ES was late (I think by about 5 mins) but the ICE was held...

The overall reliability of the ICE trains is now very poor so I would always allow a contingency of c.3 hours for any onward connection from Cologne (eg. sleeper trains). It is one of the poorest ICE lines that DB operate -- the catering is totally random as well

I was going to say that does not match my experience, which has been very positive (and I've done a 20-min ICE connection a couple of times) but...

-- and a pale shadow of what it was ten years.

My experience on this route was in 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2014.

 

[MarcVD]

Is that one of those "boxy" EMUs? Seen those at Liege and they almost look like a 2BIL. Doubt they're quite that old, though, given BILs disappeared circa 1970...

Here it is. First ones built right after WW2, last ones early eighties.

 

[riceuten]

Could it be that you meant to mention the inter-platform subway half way down the E* platforms at Midi?

Well yes (slightly amended now) - additionally, the passageway theoretically had a passport control but I never had my passport checked there, but I know other people did

 

[Bikeman78]

To be honest I couldn't see anything wrong with the "museum piece" EMU when I used it. You could certainly tell from the outside that it had been around a bit, but the interior had clearly been refurbished quite recently.

They were built between 1966 and 1980; all refurbished between 1999 and 2009. The first refurb actually went direct from green livery to the present livery missing out the Bordeaux red carried by most of the fleet at some point.

 

[nw1]

Here it is. First ones built right after WW2, last ones early eighties.

Yes, they are the ones I think, thanks for the photo. So the older ones were indeed only 10-odd years newer than 2BILs (admittedly seeing the photo the resemblance isn't so strong).

Interesting also to see them still being built in the early 80s. Thus, for those familiar with Southern Region EMUs, the older ones are older than EPBs and the newer ones the same age as 455s.

 

[Beebman]

There does appear to be some resemblance with the pre-war MS39 units so I'm guessing that their design evolved from them?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/yveslocomot/14060004884

 

[Ian99]

I've done that connection twice - the most recent being 2 weeks ago and both without incident. However neither time was the inter-platform subway open - instead one had to queue to go down through the main hall.

One additional thing I did notice a few weeks back is that the area outside Brussels station looks a lot nicer now with various bars and open seating areas.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, they are the ones I think, thanks for the photo. So the older ones were indeed only 10-odd years newer than 2BILs (admittedly seeing the photo the resemblance isn't so strong).

Interesting also to see them still being built in the early 80s. Thus, for those familiar with Southern Region EMUs, the older ones are older than EPBs and the newer ones the same age as 455s.

I'm wondering if a new thread should be started for this?

The remaining units are all from the series 601 to 782 built 1966 to 1980 (not 1979 as I wrote previously). 30 to 40 were renumbered in the 900 series and designated Cityrail with more standing space.

The current cab shape seems to have started in 1950. I can vaguely remember the AM50/AM53/AM54 series but they went for scrap in the early 1990s.

The AM56 numbered 129 to 150 had Budd stainless steel like the R32 subway cars in New York. I recall these units much better, they lasted until 1999.

The AM62-AM65 numbered 151 to 270 were basically identical to 601 to 782 except that none were refurbished. Aside from going from green to red livery, they essentially ran in as built condition for 50 years; the last run was in October 2013.

Over the years I've travelled on over 300 of them on almost every electric route on the network. The exceptions being a couple of branches and the recently wired routes.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I've done the connection at Brussels a few times now and there was never any border-related bureaucracy on Germany or Netherlands-bound trains or even threat of it. Similar, no bureaucracy at Cologne going the other way, either. But perhaps I just got lucky.

My experience on this route was in 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2014.

Identity and luggage checks were introduced after the Thalys terrorist attack in 2015. It was all rather pointless security theatre because the same train could be boarded at Brussels-Nord without checks, and there was no attempt to check any non-high speed transport links.

These days these checks seems to be rare, but there are as mentioned loitering customs officers mainly interested in potential counterfeit fashion items. I suspect readers of this forum are unlikely to be targeted

 

[duesselmartin]

Checks for ICE don't seem to happen and Thalys only towards Paris. So is it a French requirement or the Belgian attitude of going only half the mile?

 

[nw1]

I'm wondering if a new thread should be started for this?

The remaining units are all from the series 601 to 782 built 1966 to 1980 (not 1979 as I wrote previously). 30 to 40 were renumbered in the 900 series and designated Cityrail with more standing space.

The current cab shape seems to have started in 1950. I can vaguely remember the AM50/AM53/AM54 series but they went for scrap in the early 1990s.

The AM56 numbered 129 to 150 had Budd stainless steel like the R32 subway cars in New York. I recall these units much better, they lasted until 1999.

The AM62-AM65 numbered 151 to 270 were basically identical to 601 to 782 except that none were refurbished. Aside from going from green to red livery, they essentially ran in as built condition for 50 years; the last run was in October 2013.

Over the years I've travelled on over 300 of them on almost every electric route on the network. The exceptions being a couple of branches and the recently wired routes.

Interesting. So Belgium is still running EMUs as old as (to bring another Southern Region comparison in) the oldest VEPs.

I've said this before, but for such a small country Belgium has a remarkable variety of stock (based on visits 2009-14, as I said above).

 

[Bikeman78]

Interesting. So Belgium is still running EMUs as old as (to bring another Southern Region comparison in) the oldest VEPs.

I've said this before, but for such a small country Belgium has a remarkable variety of stock (based on visits 2009-14, as I said above).

Indeed, the age and variety of stock is amazing. The M7 double deckers will wipe out a lot but the AM75 units have all just had a major refurb. The oldest two cars are 56 years old now but the AM75 might well beat that. Just proves how long EMUs can last as long as all the important bits keep getting overhauled.

 

[MarcVD]

I'm wondering if a new thread should be started for this?

The remaining units are all from the series 601 to 782 built 1966 to 1980 (not 1979 as I wrote previously). 30 to 40 were renumbered in the 900 series and designated Cityrail with more standing space.

The current cab shape seems to have started in 1950. I can vaguely remember the AM50/AM53/AM54 series but they went for scrap in the early 1990s.

The AM56 numbered 129 to 150 had Budd stainless steel like the R32 subway cars in New York. I recall these units much better, they lasted until 1999.

The AM62-AM65 numbered 151 to 270 were basically identical to 601 to 782 except that none were refurbished. Aside from going from green to red livery, they essentially ran in as built condition for 50 years; the last run was in October 2013.

Over the years I've travelled on over 300 of them on almost every electric route on the network. The exceptions being a couple of branches and the recently wired routes.

You might add that :
- They were all compatible together, any of them could be MUed with any other;
- Braking systems varied a lot, so there were sometimes strong reactions between units in a varied consist;
- Up to 660, they were equipped with classical rheostat system for starting, as of 660 they switched to thyristors;
- Motor couplings were serial and serial/parallel on the rheostat ones, and serial/parallel only for the thyristor ones; the controller only had those two stable positions - on the thyristor ones, to maintain compatibility, the serial position was simulated;
- Max speed was 130 km/h for units below 600 and 140 km/h for 601 and above
- Maximum consist was 6 units, but this draws too much current so one of the six had to have its traction switched off, unless they were all thyristor units, because they draw less current;
- Only those which are not thyristor-equipped are cleared to run into Aachen;
- the current cab design started with unit 010 (AM50, built 1950).

 

[Bikeman78]

You might add that :
- They were all compatible together, any of them could be MUed with any other;
- Braking systems varied a lot, so there were sometimes strong reactions between units in a varied consist;
- Up to 660, they were equipped with classical rheostat system for starting, as of 660 they switched to thyristors;
- Motor couplings were serial and serial/parallel on the rheostat ones, and serial/parallel only for the thyristor ones; the controller only had those two stable positions - on the thyristor ones, to maintain compatibility, the serial position was simulated;
- Max speed was 130 km/h for units below 600 and 140 km/h for 601 and above
- Maximum consist was 6 units, but this draws too much current so one of the six had to have its traction switched off, unless they were all thyristor units, because they draw less current;
- Only those which are not thyristor-equipped are cleared to run into Aachen;
- the current cab design started with unit 010 (AM50, built 1950).

See reply here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/belgian-emus.237476/

 

[matt]

I attempted the connection last Monday. The 1225 from Brussels to Frankfurt was cancelled. The guard on the Thayls service said no so we took the slower route to Aachen. On the return the service did run but nearly missed it at Köln as my incoming ICE was late but luckily they held the connection.

 

[AdamWW]

I attempted the connection last Monday. The 1225 from Brussels to Frankfurt was cancelled. The guard on the Thayls service said no so we took the slower route to Aachen.

Isn't HOTNAT supposed to let you get the next Thalys if you miss the ICE?
(Edited to add: I wasn't paying attention - I think it's only for delays, not cancelled trains)

Or was the Thalys completely full?

 

[duesselmartin]

Although it would be full if an ICE load gets onto it, Thalys regulary ignores Hotnat if its not a previous Thalys service that was cancelled

 

[AdamWW]

Although it would be full if an ICE load gets onto it, Thalys regulary ignores Hotnat if its not a previous Thalys service that was cancelled

I thought it only covered delays, not cancelled trains.

 

[matt]

I went to the Brussels International ticket office first and at the start of the queue was given the itinerary to Aachen. I'm not sure if the Thalys guard knew the DB was cancelled or not bit he said he would charge a new ticket. As it was about to depart we didn't have time to discuss but arguably we had a more interesting journey.