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Russia invades Ukraine

OhNoAPacer

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Doesn't any "swap" of land have to go throught the United Nations or similar body? Surely you can't just claim territory on fixed referendums?
You can claim anything you like, whether it follows international law or accepted treaties is another thing, but in reality if you do claim territory then, short of authorising an armed assault to remove the invaders, what in reality could the UN do, remembering that in this case the offending state has a veto, and if China was on board then a double veto and not forgetting all those countries where China has invested money, lots of influence there.
 
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adc82140

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RT is really trying to downplay the nuclear threats. And RT is the mouthpiece of the Kremlin.
 

DustyBin

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One thought, if they can't train, equip or feed their regular army properly, what chance the reservists? They would have been last in line for any such training/equipment, and I doubt they will get much before being thrown to the wolves, and add there's a very severe winter ahead of them - they will probably be extremely cold, hungry, frightened, homesick....basically a ticking bomb. I frankly can't see it any other way....if they wanted to fight the war, they'd already be there?

I completely agree.

But back home, if Putin starts to call up the police then I bet they won't be as keen to break up the demonstrations. The key phrase that the Russians are "googling" is "how to break an arm" apparantly - a disability like that means you don't get called up I suppose. What price an arm and a leg??



A video has appeared on Twitter of a dead female protester, apparently beaten to death by the police (I won’t link it). Things appear to be turning very ugly.
 

Howardh

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I completely agree.



A video has appeared on Twitter of a dead female protester, apparently beaten to death by the police (I won’t link it). Things appear to be turning very ugly.
I've not seen that, but if confirmed it doesn't surprise me. The last thing Putin needs to do is scorn the mothers (or even wives - especially if they have children) of those called up. Presumably a huge number will be 18-21 (younger??), still living "at home" under the care of their mother/father...and they will defend/protect their youngsters to the n'th degree - they won't wnat them going to war to face death/wounding.

It just needs the police to back off and it's all over for Putin. But the'll be paying/threatening them to keep them in line no doubt.
 

brad465

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Howardh

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Russia has achieved a "mobilisation", in the form of a 35km queue on the Finnish border to escape Russia:

If they arrived at the border without a Schengen Visa, could reservists they claim asylum with just cause? Would be very difficult - after all when joining up they would assume that they could be called up full-time even though at the time war was almost unheard of?

But as I alluded to, if they were granted asylum it would be one less joining the forces against Ukraine. Multiply that by those wishing asylum - could only be a net benefit to Ukraine/Europe?
 

bspahh

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The queue at the border may be fake news based on a very quick Google search
Rajavartiolaitos is the Finnish Border Guard account. It tweeted this yesterday:
Situation at Finland's borders has not changed with the announcement of Russian moilization. There are videos circulating on social media, at least some of which have already been filmed before and now taken out of context. There is incorrect information in circulation.
 

Gloster

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What is the situation with Russian soldiers who have been wounded, but not captured? Are they being released to their homes from hospitals to recuperate after treatment, which would spread the word of how badly things are going. (Although it is possible that many of those who are career professionals will parrot the line that all is going swimmingly.) Or are they ‘recuperating’ in barracks or isolated hospitals with no contact with the general public?
 

najaB

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What is the situation with Russian soldiers who have been wounded, but not captured? Are they being released to their homes from hospitals to recuperate after treatment, which would spread the word of how badly things are going. (Although it is possible that many of those who are career professionals will parrot the line that all is going swimmingly.) Or are they ‘recuperating’ in barracks or isolated hospitals with no contact with the general public?
Interestingly, I was just watching a video that said that Russia claims that 90% of injured soldiers are back on the front already. Not sure how that's possible though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Interestingly, I was just watching a video that said that Russia claims that 90% of injured soldiers are back on the front already. Not sure how that's possible though.

I don't think I would trust anything Russia or for that matter China said as far as I could physically throw it.
 

brad465

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The BBC live feed has referred to the above tweet and said that it was taken a few days ago, so unrelated to Putin's speech. However they do report increasing numbers crossing the relevant border:


The number of people crossing Finland's eastern border "intensified" overnight, but the Finnish Border Guard said the situation was under control.

Earlier today, Finnish Defence Minister Antti Kaikkonen said Finland is closely monitoring the situation in light of President Vladimir Putin's order of military mobilisation for the war in Ukraine.

Yesterday, Finnish border authorities issued a statement to combat misinformation circulating on social media, which suggested an alarming number of people were crossing the Russian-Finnish border.

Following Vladimir Putin’s announcement of a call-up for thousands of extra reservists to fight in Ukraine, rumours were circulating online that people were fleeing Russia and crossing the border to neighbouring Finland.

A Twitter post purported to show a border queue stretching “over 35km” (16 miles), it was liked and retweeted many thousands of times.

But the video embedded in the tweet was originally posted three days ago on a TikTok account and is unconnected with President Putin’s speech.

Finland has the longest land border with Russia in the European Union, spanning 1,300km (800 miles).

The author of that feed update also doesn't know unit conversions well, as "over 35km in miles is longer than 16 miles" (35km is nearer 22 miles).
 

Annetts key

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If 90% of injured Russian soldiers were back on the front, and the number of Russian deaths was as per the official published figures, why would Russia need to have 300000 more personnel deployed to Ukraine?

Russia only ever misleads in the “information” they release. I’m not sure if you asked an official spokesperson what the time is, that they would tell you the real time…
 

Strathclyder

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Interestingly, I was just watching a video that said that Russia claims that 90% of injured soldiers are back on the front already. Not sure how that's possible though.
I wouldn't trust any 'information' Moscow - or for that matter Beijing - officially puts out.

If 90% of injured Russian soldiers were back on the front, and the number of Russian deaths was as per the official published figures, why would Russia need to have 300000 more personnel deployed to Ukraine?
Putting the credibility of the official 'information' out of Moscow aside for just a moment, Russia has a track record during times of conflict for throwing thousands of personnel at the enemy to overwhelm them through sheer force of numbers but with utterly no regard for the carnage that results among their ranks. Quantity over quality in the most horrendous way possible.
 

Broucek

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I wouldn't trust any 'information' Moscow - or for that matter Beijing - officially puts out.


Putting the credibility of the official 'information' out of Moscow aside for just a moment, Russia has a track record during times of conflict for throwing thousands of personnel at the enemy to overwhelm them through sheer force of numbers but with utterly no regard for the carnage that results among their ranks. Quantity over quality in the most horrendous way possible.
The difference today is that they don't have the right military hardware or other supplies and so the marginal impact of another x,000 soldiers could be pretty limited....
 

Strathclyder

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The difference today is that they don't have the right military hardware or other supplies and so the marginal impact of another x,000 soldiers could be pretty limited....
Oh but of course. Doesn't stop the propganda machine in the Kremlin from throwing that kind of utter BS out there though, if for no other reason than to try and scare, mislead & manipulate the Russian populace.

I don't believe it either, just wanted to share their claim, if only to show how ridiculous it is.
Gotcha. And yes, it should be taken for what it is: utter nonsense.
 

Howardh

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From being the regular army to 300000 virtually civilians, with up to 600000 parents, add wives, children, grandparents, you now have over a million Russians with active interest in the war who will only take so much fake news when it come to their sons/husbands.

They won't be bothered one iota about annexing parts of Ukraine, they just want their loved ones back, the sooner the war is over for them the better even if they lose.
 

TwoYellas

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I think this on/off Cold War nonsense is totally preventable, idiotic madness. The article below is about how it nearly went to all out WW3 before. If at first you don't succeed keep trying!





Quote:

"Had it been launched, the fate of the world would have been very different: the attack would probably have started a nuclear war which would have caused global devastation, with unimaginable numbers of civilian deaths."
 

yorksrob

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I think this on/off Cold War nonsense is totally preventable, idiotic madness. The article below is about how it nearly went to all out WW3 before. If at first you don't succeed keep trying!





Quote:

"Had it been launched, the fate of the world would have been very different: the attack would probably have started a nuclear war which would have caused global devastation, with unimaginable numbers of civilian deaths."

What is the solution when you're dealing with the deranged ?

We've all heard half-wit Medvadev sounding off. Moscow is doubtless full of the type.
 

Trackman

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I think this on/off Cold War nonsense is totally preventable, idiotic madness. The article below is about how it nearly went to all out WW3 before. If at first you don't succeed keep trying!

Quote:

"Had it been launched, the fate of the world would have been very different: the attack would probably have started a nuclear war which would have caused global devastation, with unimaginable numbers of civilian deaths."
There was a film about it.
There's a nuke threat thread somewhere- I'll be worried when it's pinned to the main forums like Covid!
 

TwoYellas

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What is the solution when you're dealing with the deranged ?

In my view not to be so cozy with the 'deranged' in the first place and listen more to voices that say you shouldn't be so friendly with them (before it became fashionable). Another solution is to not be so friendly with other deranged heads of state, I don't think it's a good idea in the long run. But I realise we need resources. And finally to push for war crimes trials for any war criminals regardless of where they're from.






Quote:

““Human rights groups are urging Mr Blair to turn up the heat on Mr Putin over his war against Chechen rebels.“
 

yorksrob

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In my view not to be so cozy with the 'deranged' in the first place and listen more to voices that say you shouldn't be so friendly with them (before it became fashionable). Another solution is to not be so friendly with other deranged heads of state, I don't think it's a good idea in the long run. But I realise we need resources. And finally to push for war crimes trials for any war criminals regardless of where they're from.






Quote:

““Human rights groups are urging Mr Blair to turn up the heat on Mr Putin over his war against Chechen rebels.“

Make sure they know that if they burn us, they will burn as well. It's the only language they understand.
 

TwoYellas

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There was a film about it.
There's a nuke threat thread somewhere- I'll be worried when it's pinned to the main forums like Covid!
Cheers will look this movie up.

Make sure they know that if they burn us, they will burn as well. It's the only language they understand.
No, I'd rather live in a world with nuclear de-escalation as a city is a city and I don't want anyone to “burn" despite the kleptocrat currently in charge or no matter which piece of land a civilian happens to live on.

But we probably won't agree so I bid you goodnight.
 

ainsworth74

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In my view not to be so cozy with the 'deranged' in the first place and listen more to voices that say you shouldn't be so friendly with them (before it became fashionable). Another solution is to not be so friendly with other deranged heads of state, I don't think it's a good idea in the long run. But I realise we need resources. And finally to push for war crimes trials for any war criminals regardless of where they're from.
Well yes. But the boat sailed on that twenty years ago so we are where we are...
 

yorksrob

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Cheers will look this movie up.


No, I'd rather live in a world with nuclear de-escalation as a city is a city and I don't want anyone to “burn" despite the kleptocrat currently in charge or no matter which piece of land a civilian happens to live on.

But we probably won't agree so I bid you goodnight.

We'd all rather live in that world, but we don't, i'm afraid.

Good night.
 

TwoYellas

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Well yes. But the boat sailed on that twenty years ago so we are where we are...
I disagree. Look closely you'll see the boat returns again and again. In short the powers that be tell us who to be mad at, at any given time. We really haven't moved on a lot from the WW1 when the main countries riled their populations into an utter war frenzy to hate the 'enemy'. Well in my view, there is no enemy, just ordinary people in different parts of the world manipulated by their government's through a propaganda prism.

It's the same nonsense over and over and I'm not buying the tired 'good vs evil' narrative; I saw through that years ago.
 

Annetts key

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It’s humans just being tribal, but on a larger scale.

But with someone like Putin, you have to be strong in making sure he knows that you mean that you are serious. Giving concessions without reciprocal arrangements will be seen as a weakness to be exploited…

Hence why if he sabre rattles about his nuclear weapons, Western nuclear powers should firmly remind him that any use of his nuclear weapons will be seen as an act of aggression and that they will respond with their own nuclear weapons.

Of course this would be done via diplomatic channels and not publicly. In public, the word ‘will’ would be replaced with ‘may’ so that it’s not seen as escalating a problem.

That’s the whole point of a nuclear deterrent…
 

gingerheid

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I disagree. Look closely you'll see the boat returns again and again. In short the powers that be tell us who to be mad at, at any given time. We really haven't moved on a lot from the WW1 when the main countries riled their populations into an utter war frenzy to hate the 'enemy'. Well in my view, there is no enemy, just ordinary people in different parts of the world manipulated by their government's through a propaganda prism.

It's the same nonsense over and over and I'm not buying the tired 'good vs evil' narrative; I saw through that years ago.
These are really lovely thoughts. But we have to live in the world that exists not the one we wish exists, and we can't make what we wish existed happen by pretending it already has.

A great evil is currently being brought to tens of millions of people in Europe, and we can't make it go away by being nice to it. And, undoubtedly, the evil is evil. Only evil destroys people and things the way they are being destroyed.
 
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