Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[WizCastro197]

Seen some minor changes on TL (on RTT) where Bedford to Three Bridges stop at South Croydon but no change on Southern yet.

Why?
Just adds journey time to a pointless station?

 

[PGAT]

Why?
Just adds journey time to a pointless station?

Eh I disagree. These trains don’t really pass through South Croydon at high speeds on the slow lines (on average probably 30-35 mph from my experience) and it’s a small station so unloading won’t really take that long. Maybe a minute or 2 onto the journey, but saves passengers 15 on average.

 

[London Trains]

Having had to live with this new considerably slower service from Ockley to and from Victoria stopping at two extra stations (Balham and Ewell East) on all services apart from the last service of the night at 2325 (that used to call at all these stations anyway) and also now calling additionally at Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge (compared to all the services that were formely so called semi-fasts, even though only the 1624 from Ockley to Victoria was an appreciably 5 minutes faster than all the other Up services because it was able to cross over on to the fast lines somewhere near Balham according to a train driver on the service I spoke to 6 or 7 weeks ago) I find its most maddening feature is that even though all trains from Ockley to Victoria now call at all stations the train times London bound from Ockley on weekdays are also not consistent and vary substantially, even though they are absolutely consistent at the same minutes past each hour and taking the same amount of time coming down from Victoria except for the last service of the day at 2325.

So in the morning the 0625 train from Ockley to Victoria that is surely only popular with eager beaver office warriors wanting to make an early start on their day takes a quite ridiculous 81 minutes for 29 railway miles at a time of day when lines would surely not yet be at their very busiest Yet the next train is at 0730 and takes 6 minutes less to cover the same stations in an only slightly less miserably slow 75 minutes. But after that the 0829, 0929, 1029, 1129 and 1229 from Ockley all take 76 minutes for the journey to Victoria until we get to 1324 when suddenly the train has to leave 5 minutes earlier than the previous 5 hourly services and so takes 81 minutes to get to Victoria at 45 minutes past the following hour for no explicable or at least explained reason. This last one I found particularly annoying having missed my train up to London on Wednesday last week only because I naively thought that 29 minutes past the hour going Up and 51 minutes past the hour going Down on weekdays were new consistent times at Ockley given that all trains stop at exactly the same stations and they are all now SuperSlows, something that only the last train of the day at 2325 from Victoria used to be (the only one previously to stop at all stations after Clapham Junction). But just to add to this theme of malevolent and substantial inconsistency in journey times to cover the same stops (5 minutes more on top of 76 minutes is nearly 7%) I see that the 2029 also takes 1 minute longer to get to Victoria from Ockley than any other services in the afternoon and evening (after the inexplicably 81 minutes duration 1324 service) so does not arrive until 2146, even though this is surely not a busy time of day at Victoria.

Yet coming down from Victoria on weekdays every single train takes a significantly shorter 70 rather than 76 minutes to cover the same distance and number of stops to Ockley except for the last train at 2325 that takes 72 minutes, although perhaps that is to do with it leaving Victoria at the old 25 minutes past the hour instead of 41 minutes past the hour that all the other trains now leave at (noting that all Down train times on weekdays are consistent except for the final 2325 service, very much unlike the Up services on the line). But this does also create the ridiculous and very stupid anomaly that there is only a 44 minute gap between the 2241 and 2325 service from London Victoria (on what is otherwise now a consistently hourly service on weekdays coming Down from Victoria) with I'm sure the result that the 2241 service will have a lot fewer passengers on it south of Epsom.

Yet on a Saturday every train from Ockley from 0829 to 1829 leaves at the same 29 minutes past the hour and takes the same 76 minutes to reach Victoria (the typical time of departure and arrival of the majority but not all services on a weekday) but coming down from Victoria to Ockley all trains leave Victoria at 41 minutes past the hour and arrive 70 minutes later at 51 minutes past the hour so taking 6 minutes less for the same journey than the vast majority of Up trains, clearly begging the question why all journeys can't be accomplished in 70 minutes and what it is about going in to London Victoria from Ockley, stopping at all of the same stations now involved on all services, that makes the journey take up to 11 minutes longer than in reverse?

So the huge question for Southern's train planners has to be why is it that even though we understand you have merged slow services to Epsom with former semi fast services to and from Horsham that Down journeys from London Victoria to Ockley all only take 70 minutes on all services apart from the 2325 on weekdays taking 72 minutes (when you would have thought the lines were clearer and trains could go faster at that time of night) while Up services on weekdays vary between the miserably slow 81 minute 0625 and 1324 services and the quickest 75 minute service at 0730 taking 1 minute less than most others. And what in particular is the explanation for the super slow services from Ockley to Victoria on weekdays at 0625 and 1324 taking 81 minutes and why even on Saturday, when journey times in each direction are consistent throughout the day, does it take only 70 minutes to get from Victoria to Ockley but 76 minutes to get from Ockley to Victoria.

Southern has simply imposed these substantially revised services on the travelling public without any consultation or explanation whatsoever (in particular through their now inexplicably abolished Meet The Manager and quarterly online Passenger Panel question asking opportunities) and some of the changes such as the inexplicably extra long (for the same stops) 0625 and 1341 services from Ockley to Victoria on a weekday look like possible mistakes. Also can Southern give any good explanation as why it now takes 6 minutes longer on the vast majority of its pitifully slow services to make the journey from Ockley to London Victoria than it does in the reverse direction coming out of Victoria to Ockley?

Of course other stuff goes on that does not seem to even be explained to passengers waiting at the station such as that last night the 2325 from London Victoria to Ockley left Dorking (where I was connecting from a Gatwick service to Dorking Deepdene) at a scheduled 0030 hours rather than the usual 0026 hours but can I presume this is due to some diversion or other in the normal train route or alternatively due to a lowered line speed caused by temporary works along the route. Anyway I see that today the train leaves Dorking at the usual 0026 timing towards Horsham that predates the institution of the new timetable on 5th September as nothing about the 2325 service was revised or altered by that new timetable (but under which journeys from London Victoria to Ockley still take 2 minutes longer on the 2325 service than all the others all stations services from Victoria leaving at 41 minutes past each hour taking 70 minutes).

But anyway I think that its clear that we have not even gained a boringly consistent and memorable timetable at the same minutes past each hour out of the new timetable imposed on 5th September but we have lost half hourly morning services including the much missed (I'm told by Southern Railway station workers in particular) 0556 from Ockley completing the final coup de gras on top of half hourly evening weekday services south of Dorking never coming back post COVID.

So we have suffered a further substantial reduction in morning rush hour services and a substantial increase in all journey times apart from the 2325 service from London Victoria on weekdays without so much as a poster of any kind from Southern explaining their justification for the substantial disimprovements on services south of Epsom post September 5th and no opportunity to discuss them through the now abolished without explanation Meet The Manager In Person (at Victoria and London Bridge) and Online quarterly Passenger Panel question asking opportunities to senior members of the Southern/Go Via management team responsible for planning Southern's train services.

Honestly the biggest issue on this line has always been the atrocious timings, whether now, before the September change or even pre-2018.

If the service had a good timetable then I reckon with the current stopping pattern Horsham to Victoria could be reduced from 90 to 75 minutes, with the pre-September pattern probably 65-70 minutes and if it also skipped Carshalton and Boxhill & Westhumble (only serving busiest stops north of Dorking) I reckon 60 minutes could maybe be possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

Why?
Just adds journey time to a pointless station?

Only served by 2tph now because of the removal of London Bridge to Caterham via Streatham and London Bridge to Coulsdon Town via Sydenham services.

 

[PGAT]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

 

[Capvermell]

Honestly the biggest issue on this line has always been the atrocious timings, whether now, before the September change or even pre-2018.

If the service had a good timetable then I reckon with the current stopping pattern Horsham to Victoria could be reduced from 90 to 75 minutes, with the pre-September pattern probably 65-70 minutes and if it also skipped Carshalton and Boxhill & Westhumble (only serving busiest stops north of Dorking) I reckon 60 minutes could maybe be possible.

Yes agreed that atrocious timings (total journey times and connections) are a feature of the line and especially between trains to or from Victoria terminating at Horsham and fast services on the Arun Valley coming north under the old timetable (where northbound fast Portsmouth services at Horsham arrived 2 minutes after services left Horsham for Victoria via Dorking). Now Southern's train planners have brilliantly much worsened that situation with the hourly southbound from Dorking also missing the Fast service connection to Portsmouth at Horsham by one minute and although northbound services via Dorking do now leave Horsham at 17 minutes rather than 14 minutes past the hour the 30 second connection northbound at Horsham this provides (scarcely enough time to rush between the trains on Platform 2 and Platform 1) will generally be missed as fast services up the Arun Valley corridor generally arrive at Horsham at least 2 to 3 minutes late the vast majority of the time.

But I think DfT's computer model probably only cared about reducing out of service platform dwell time on turnaround at Horsham on the services from Dorking, which it has substantially achieved but at the price of making the services so slow up the Mole Valley corridor that no long distance user starting at Horsham or south of it will want to consider them. But as fastest journey times from Horsham to Victoria via Gatwick are 53 minutes it would not be exactly hard to devise a once an hour service pattern north from Horsham that matched or exceeded that time.

One possibility that does strike me is why slow Arun Valley services simply can't continue running north from Horsham to Dorking stopping at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham (and vica versa) and then become the hourly fast service from Dorking only calling at probably Leatherhead, Epsom, Sutton and Clapham Junction. This then also makes it much easier to provide hourly services from Dorking to Horsham on Saturday evening and on Sundays. However the problem is passengers from Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction and Hackbridge who would clearly not accept only an hourly train service (as they don't have services that also go to Waterloo) but are not served by any other current train routes other than those travelling to Dorking and Horsham. Ashtead seems to have loads of services to Waterloo so I can't see why it also needs a slower twice an hour service from Dorking.

 

[Capvermell]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

My last post and yours crossed but yes that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. But of course Network Rail and/or DfT will claim it costs some absurd amount of money to reinstall a couple of short distances of rail track and points with appropriate signalling at Cheam, even though I don't really see how it can.

The fast Mole Valley link proposals across to South West's fast lines at https://ukrail.blogspot.com/2013/03/mole-valley-link.html would cost a great deal more money and also face huge planning issues but is the only other way to further speed up services on the line. However not likely to happen in the current environment of substantially lower numbers of peak hour fare paying commuters.

 

[cle]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

Would be tough to path between Sutton and Epsom(/Leatherhead with 2019 restored services in due course.) But probably ok temporarily!

I wonder if this would be better as a SWT route, if a faster path south of Raynes Park could be found. If Sutton is blocked.
Even though it's on the slows through Wimbledon. Hand the Crawley route to Thameslink entirely from Horsham.

 

[Horizon22]

I suppose the last one did make more sense, from a London Bridge Perspective, the new LBG-VIC is a little useless as now it will not connect to East Croydon easily and those wanting to get from Bridge to Victoria would be more than happy to take the tube for a lot cheaper and quicker bear in mind…
Of course I would like to see some peoples opinions



It is only really Metro than has changed
Mainline frequencies have changed slightly but most are the same…

It's better to see it as 2 services; one between Crystal Palace - London Bridge and the other between Gypsy Hill & Victoria. That's not to say people at the mid-point won't go to the "other" terminal, but the numbers are low. Nobody is realistically doing the long rounder route.

No, but people are going to go to Crystal Palace instead of Anerley if the train timetable is suits them better at Crystal Palace. Anyway, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Anerley and Penge West still both have four trains an hour.

Indeed. A bit of a slog up the hill but both Anerley and Penge West commuters could do this instead. You can change en route, but it's certainly a disincentive that didn't exist before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2022 ==

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

It's never been a "fast" line really, and has a fair amount of flat junctions and conflicts en route.

 

[London Trains]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

Not sure about paths being available if taking the pre September timetable into account, but you could extend the Dorking fast service to Horsham and onto the Arun Valley. I would remove its Carshalton stop, so it would call at Clapham Jct, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham and then onwards...

 

[bicbasher]

Alright. Taken aboard. But that is from a business perspective, the ECR stopper was very popular and now is is harder to reach intermediate stations from say LBG.
East Croydon as you are very aware is a large interchange so is handy for those living on the London Bridge to East Croydon via Forest Hill route

Sorry but no one is going to get off at Anerley and walk to Crystal Palace?

They will for cheaper fares as Crystal Palace is zones 3/4 and Anerley is Zone 4.

You're also pretty much guaranteed a seat on the Overground services and direct services to London Bridge which Anerley has lost.

 

[cle]

Not sure about paths being available if taking the pre September timetable into account, but you could extend the Dorking fast service to Horsham and onto the Arun Valley. I would remove its Carshalton stop, so it would call at Clapham Jct, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham and then onwards...

I think you could skip Cheam and Ashtead.

I'd be curious on journey time to Horsham, vs a faster service via Gatwick. Could it unlock a pair of 12 car paths via East Croydon and LB? Corby!

 

[Basil Jet]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

If it's running non-stop from CJ to Epsom, shouldn't it be an SWR service on the direct line rather than take a scenic tour through Balham and Hackbridge? I think the line through Worcester Park is lightly enough used to allow it.

I've never understood why the Victoria service is the main one south of Epsom.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Opinions on a fast service along the Arun valley line via Dorking?

Like stopping at Clapham Junction, Epsom, Dorking and so on.

Would make use of the fast-line connection at Streatham North Junction and fast platforms could be added at Cheam to allow those trains to overtake the stoppers.

Adding fast platforms at Cheam - you make it sound like these could just appear overnight!

The railway is sadly currently going through a massive phase of cutting services to cut costs, I think many people would sooner if some money was to be found to keep these not start building new tracks somewhere.

 

[PGAT]

My train today is booked as 12 carriages (16:30 VIC-EPD)

 

[30907]

My train today is booked as 12 carriages (16:30 VIC-EPD)

And was it?

 

[PGAT]

And was it?

It actually was. Seems the inbound service joined up with a unit from Stewart’s Lane Depot and hasn’t been detached yet.

I looked on the Southern website for any changes in carriage formations and the service didn’t show up on the list, so seems to me it might be permanent? At least for this timetable?

I’ve also heard of 11 cars running along the ECL.

 

[WizCastro197]

It actually was. Seems the inbound service joined up with a unit from Stewart’s Lane Depot and hasn’t been detached yet.

I looked on the Southern website for any changes in carriage formations and the service didn’t show up on the list, so seems to me it might be permanent? At least for this timetable?

I’ve also heard of 11 cars running along the ECL.

Can all stations to Epsom downs take 12 coaches? Including EPD itself?


According to Southern's departure board tool, the 22:41 Epsom Downs to London Victoria is booked also a 12 coaches.

 

[PGAT]

Can all stations to Epsom downs take 12 coaches? Including EPD itself?


According to Southern's departure board tool, the 22:41 Epsom Downs to London Victoria is booked also a 12 coaches.

I believe it cannot. Only Victoria, Clapham Junction and Sutton can take 12. Also the 1508 from EPD (which later forms the 2241) is booked as 4 coaches, so I’m assuming the other 8 join up at Victoria?

 

[WizCastro197]

I believe it cannot. Only Victoria, Clapham Junction and Sutton can take 12

Must be a lot of "if you are travelling to: ......................................., please board the front ..... coaches.

 

[PGAT]

Must be a lot of "if you are travelling to: ......................................., please board the front ..... coaches.

Remember when the 40° heatwave happened? There was a temporary timetable and that was the day CAT/TAT services ran as 12 coaches and i saw WCY-VIC run as 11 coaches. Feel like Southern might finally be introducing longer trains on the metro routes (albeit at low volumes and very subtly)

Also need to make a quick correction: Sutton platforms 1 and 2 allow 12 coaches, but platform 3 only allows 10 and platform 4 is long enough for 11

 

[WizCastro197]

Remember when the 40° heatwave happened? There was a temporary timetable and that was the day CAT/TAT services ran as 12 coaches and i saw WCY-VIC run as 11 coaches. Feel like Southern might finally be introducing longer trains on the metro routes (albeit at low volumes and very subtly)

It is good to add extra capacity but when you think about it, as aforementioned some metro Platforms simply dont have to the space to hold up to 11/12 coaches so some doors are permanently locked out. So those who require stations with short platforms either have to sit in a busy part of the train where every one else getting off at short platform stations will sit as the announcements have guided them there, or they will walk a bit to find the nearest operational door.

Are all 12 needed? Does normally all 8/4 physically exceed standing room only so there is demand for an extra 4/8 coaches? Did all 12 coaches seem to get full on your journey? Only of course if you noticed!

I don't normally use metro services except when travelling between Victoria/Clapham to Balham. So I wouldn't have a very good picture of capacity levels.

 

[PGAT]

It is good to add extra capacity but when you think about it, as aforementioned some metro Platforms simply dont have to the space to hold up to 11/12 coaches so some doors are permanently locked out.

Are all 12 needed? Does normally all 8/4 physically exceed standing room only so there is demand for an extra 4/8 coaches? Did all 12 coaches seem to get full on your journey? Only of course if you noticed!

Got on at the 8th carriage since that’s all the platforms at BAK allow for. The train was decently busy but you could still find an ideal seat. I moved down to carriage 11 and loads of confused passengers started moving up the carriage because of short platforms and there were only a few people there. When it got to CLJ lots of passengers got on (probably unsuspecting since SWR station announcements probably aren’t built for this kind of job) and it mostly stayed calm and relaxed until people heard the short platform announcement as it was approaching and about half the carriage all rushed out. Then I went on my phone for the rest of the journey and didn’t pay much attention to what else happened.

So to answer your question 12 carriages probably wasn’t necessary for a train leaving just before rush-hour, maybe gifting 12 coaches to a train an hour behind would have been far more beneficial. I’m also aware that the train sounded really busy, but that’s because not many people at Victoria bothered to move up (if I were to guess)

 

[London Trains]

I believe it cannot. Only Victoria, Clapham Junction and Sutton can take 12. Also the 1508 from EPD (which later forms the 2241) is booked as 4 coaches, so I’m assuming the other 8 join up at Victoria?

The platforms the Epsom Downs service serves at both Clapham Junction and Sutton can only take 10 coaches.

 

[PGAT]

The platforms the Epsom Downs service serves at both Clapham Junction and Sutton can only take 10 coaches.

Should’ve clarified that only Platform 15 at Clapham Junction can handle 12.

 

[WizCastro197]

Should’ve clarified that only Platform 15 at Clapham Junction can handle 12.

12 can and 13?


the 1508 EPD-Victoria ended up on Plat. 13. why?

 

[PGAT]

12 can and 13?


the 1508 EPD-Victoria ended up on Plat. 13. why?

Platform 13 is the Down fast so if it came from Epsom Downs then it is impossible. Also the 1508 was 8 coaches and ran through Plat 14 as normal.

 

[WizCastro197]

Platform 13 is the Down fast so if it came from Epsom Downs then it is impossible.

Sorry I wasn't being clear. I was replying on the basis that I thought that you had thought that only 15 at Clapham is the only platform of all 16/17 that can take 12. Sorry

Yes 13 is on down fast.
Impossible as it is on the fast and in the southbound direction.

 

[London Trains]

Should’ve clarified that only Platform 15 at Clapham Junction can handle 12.

Forgot about the platform extension on 15. Platform 14 can't take 12 though so would need SDO if it was 12 coaches towards Victoria.

 

[WizCastro197]

Forgot about the platform extension on 15. Platform 14 can't take 12 though so would need SDO if it was 12 coaches towards Victoria.

What was the point in extending it, if most service pre Sept. Timetable change were formed of 4/5/6/7/8 coaches?

 

[PGAT]

Sorry I wasn't being clear. I was replying on the basis that I thought that you had thought that only 15 at Clapham is the only platform of all 16/17 that can take 12. Sorry

Yes 13 is on down fast.
As it is on the fast and in the southbound direction.

Yes so Plat 15 can handle 12 coaches but 16/17 are only 8 and 10 respectively.