East West Rail: Bedford - Cambridge will it ever get built?

[Bletchleyite]

"Varsity" just refers to the concept of a university and going to one. It doesn't have to be more than one.

I suppose you could call it the Three Counties Line if the BBC* didn't mind (Oxon, Beds, Bucks - yes, I know MK is a unitary but it's in ceremonial Bucks).

* I know BBC Three Counties Radio doesn't serve the same three!

 

[mwmbwls]

"Varsity" just refers to the concept of a university and going to one. It doesn't have to be more than one.

I suppose you could call it the Three Counties Line if the BBC* didn't mind (Oxon, Beds, Bucks - yes, I know MK is a unitary but it's in ceremonial Bucks).

* I know BBC Three Counties Radio doesn't serve the same three!

Clairvoyant?
There have been moves by the Government to reform Local Government to move on from Redcliffe Maud. The Local Government Chronicle reported recently on a plan to link Derbyshire/the City of Derby?the City of Nottingham and Nottinghamshire as one authority with an elected Mayor. This stems from the inability to coordinate Local Plans and difficulties with the duty to cooperate. Not if this were to apply to the Ox-Cam arc...................................Tf3C+?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2022 ==

The (thin?) blue line?
Spy Line (Philby etc) with a stop at Bletchley Park-way
Bunyan Line
The George VII Line
The Sachdev Line
Neil [Sachdev] has been appointed for a term of 3 years and will oversee the delivery of the East West Rail project, which will deliver a new direct rail link between Oxford and Cambridge, serving towns and cities along the Oxford-Cambridge arc.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/neil-sachdev-appointed-as-permanent-chair-of-ewr-co , dated March 2021, so complete Oxbridge March 2024

Rather than "Spy" - How about the ENIGMA line?

Sorry, something has gone wrong with this web page - Derbyshire County Council

www.derbyshire.gov.uk

 

[BrianW]

"Varsity" just refers to the concept of a university and going to one. It doesn't have to be more than one.

I suppose you could call it the Three Counties Line if the BBC* didn't mind (Oxon, Beds, Bucks - yes, I know MK is a unitary but it's in ceremonial Bucks).

* I know BBC Three Counties Radio doesn't serve the same three!

Bicester- Bletchley- Bedford- Cambridge; choose three from four- BBC line; B Line; Flat Line? Mayor Dave Line? Not The London Line?

 

[mwmbwls]

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/bui...s-the-business-imperative-for-east-west-rail/

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/wp-...usiness-Imperative-for-East-West-Rail-1mb.pdf

In terms of Who/What/Why/Where/When - this documents detail the Why?

Academics and business have responded to Grant Shapps quixotic decision to cancel EWR. Given current economic trurbulence it will be interesting to see how large a part supply side issues play the Chancellors forthcoming/ in progress statement. I suggest you watch the DfT web site for the next couple of days as they (and all other ministries) will put out clarification notices.

 

[Verulamius]

It has just been announced that East West Rail will be prioritised.

The Growth Plan 2022 (HTML)

www.gov.uk

Rail​

87. Cambridge South Station

88. Northumberland Line

89. White Rose Station

90. Thorpe Park

91. Transpennine Route Upgrade

92. East West Rail

93. Leeds Station Enhancement

94. Manchester Improvements

95. Midland Main Line Phase 3

96. Northern Powerhouse Rail

 

[Bald Rick]

It has just been announced that East West Rail will be prioritised.

The Growth Plan 2022 (HTML)

www.gov.uk

Rail​

87. Cambridge South Station

88. Northumberland Line

89. White Rose Station

90. Thorpe Park

91. Transpennine Route Upgrade

92. East West Rail

93. Leeds Station Enhancement

94. Manchester Improvements

95. Midland Main Line Phase 3

96. Northern Powerhouse Rail

Noting it doesn't say which part.

 

[mwmbwls]

Noting it doesn't say which part.

The ordinal position looks like a "low hanging fruit" order, the cheapest/least complex get built first. Does anybody know the GRIP status of the listed projects - if indeed they have got that far?

 

[swt_passenger]

The ordinal position looks like a "low hanging fruit" order, the cheapest/least complex get built first. Does anybody know the GRIP status of the listed projects - if indeed they have got that far?

Aren’t details of the current status of almost all those listed projects in existing dedicated threads? Unless you wish to make this into yet another all purpose discussion thread maybe you‘d be better searching elsewhere?

 

[snowball]

The projects in the list vary greatly, from ones that will be finished in a couple of years to ones that may with luck be finished in 30 years.

 

[BrianW]

Noting it doesn't say which part.

Maybe that's the part to be 'accelerated'- i.e re-reviewing which part to take forward to the next stage of review.

My 'take' is that the 'floating' votes are in Bedford but it's too hard to be certain about which way to go (let alone the way to Cambridge!)

Maybe a rethink about reaching MK (looking at a range of technologies- like a pilot of human Starships using 'Oxbridge' innovations) and linking to Aylesbury Vale New Town (the latter like a 'Beeching reopening')

 

[zwk500]

Maybe that's the part to be 'accelerated'- i.e re-reviewing which part to take forward to the next stage of review.

My 'take' is that the 'floating' votes are in Bedford but it's too hard to be certain about which way to go (let alone the way to Cambridge!)

Maybe a rethink about reaching MK (looking at a range of technologies- like a pilot of human Starships using 'Oxbridge' innovations) and linking to Aylesbury Vale New Town (the latter like a 'Beeching reopening')

I suspect the parts currently 'in hand' will be the bits accelerated - I.e. To Bedford but no further East. Aylesbury may get revived to try and make it look like they're still encouraging non-car travel but I won't be holding my breath for it (If it comes, it will be after Oxford-Bedford/MK has bedded in properly, possibly 5-10 years if lucky)

 

[Magdalia]

It has just been announced that East West Rail will be prioritised.

The Growth Plan 2022 (HTML)

www.gov.uk

Rail​

87. Cambridge South Station

88. Northumberland Line

89. White Rose Station

90. Thorpe Park

91. Transpennine Route Upgrade

92. East West Rail

93. Leeds Station Enhancement

94. Manchester Improvements

95. Midland Main Line Phase 3

96. Northern Powerhouse Rail

For Cambridge South, the Transport and Works Act Order inquiry report is with the Secretary of State for Transport. I expect an imminent announcement, complete with tango suit and hard hat photo opportunity.

For East West Rail, I expect spades in the ground for Bedford-Cambridge before the next General Election. These are people in a hurry not bothered about opposition.

 

[bspahh]

For Cambridge South, the Transport and Works Act Order inquiry report is with the Secretary of State for Transport. I expect an imminent announcement, complete with tango suit and hard hat photo opportunity.

This thread has more on Cambridge South (and would be a better place for continued discussion on it). Branch Line news reports that "It is planned that enabling work will start in November 2022, with the main works on site starting in December this year"

Cambridge South new station opening

More objections on the basis is that it's "not big enough" https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/cambridge-south-station-won-t-cope-with-demand-and-that-co-9240025/ A transport group dismantled the plans of Network Rail for Cambridge South at the inquiry into the new railway station...

railforums.co.uk

For East West Rail, I expect spades in the ground for Bedford-Cambridge before the next General Election. These are people in a hurry not bothered about opposition.

I'm not sure where the money would come for that.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/bui...s-the-business-imperative-for-east-west-rail/

https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/wp-...usiness-Imperative-for-East-West-Rail-1mb.pdf

In terms of Who/What/Why/Where/When - this documents detail the Why?

Academics and business have responded to Grant Shapps quixotic decision to cancel EWR. Given current economic trurbulence it will be interesting to see how large a part supply side issues play the Chancellors forthcoming/ in progress statement. I suggest you watch the DfT web site for the next couple of days as they (and all other ministries) will put out clarification notices.

I think his comments on EWR during the leadership election were one of the reasons he was sacked as Transport Secretary.

For Cambridge South, the Transport and Works Act Order inquiry report is with the Secretary of State for Transport. I expect an imminent announcement, complete with tango suit and hard hat photo opportunity.

For East West Rail, I expect spades in the ground for Bedford-Cambridge before the next General Election. These are people in a hurry not bothered about opposition.

Agreed, I wouldn't be surprised if the EWR corridor is designed as one of the new low tax 'growth zones' with deregulated planning and environmental protections to drive growth and house building along the route.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm not sure where the money would come for that.

Neither are they.

 

[Bald Rick]

For East West Rail, I expect spades in the ground for Bedford-Cambridge before the next General Election.

Absolutely no chance!

 

[zwk500]

For East West Rail, I expect spades in the ground for Bedford-Cambridge before the next General Election. These are people in a hurry not bothered about opposition.

They might be in a hurry, but they can't send a digger to just rock up on a Monday morning. Expect the opposition from Cambridgeshire residents to be well-organised and substantive. There's a lot of legal process still to go through, and I'd be astonished if there wasn't at least one judicial review that gets heard in full.

 

[Magdalia]

Absolutely no chance!

They might be in a hurry, but they can't send a digger to just rock up on a Monday morning. Expect the opposition from Cambridgeshire residents to be well-organised and substantive. There's a lot of legal process still to go through, and I'd be astonished if there wasn't at least one judicial review that gets heard in full.

The impossible will be done at once, the miracle will take a little longer!

 

[Wynd]

Isn’t the whole point of this line to connect Oxford and Cambridge?

I’m a distant observer, but even I can see benefits of not having to go all the way in to London to get back out to Cambridge of Oxford from all the way up here.
Changes on the ECML/WCML to go east/west would be very welcome.

Get it built please.

 

[D365]

Why is it laughable that a public transport link is being built for a large local population increase?

It's the other way round: the homes are relying on EWR being built.

Or not, in the case of the St Neots & South Cambridgeshire NIMBYs!

 

[Mark J]

This is a post from 2014 which explains why it is unlikely

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/maidnehead-marlow.102859/#post-1852671

I used this service yesterday.

The bus onwards to High Wycombe was late and the last one returning to Bourne End was 8:37pm from High Wycombe Town centre. It was also stuck in traffic around the A40.

The bus service is every hour on a Sunday.

Hardly a decent replacement for a rail service that would run later, could possibly have a ½ hour service and not be subjected to traffic jams.

The last train back to Maidenhead from Bourne End was past midnight.

As for the actual route.

The industrial estate could easily be demolished on one side. They look relatively low density units anyway. As for other parts, deviations are possible around Wooburn, skirting the old station site to the west.

Problems start to occur around Loudwater. Would it not possible to join the Chiltern line further South?

I don't know why many think a reopened route has to exactly follow the line of an old route that used to exist.

I think a single track route with passing loops at Cookham, Wooburn, or Loudwater would possibly work.

Would Tram-Trains not be suitable for this line, allowing dedicated street running past Loudwater?

 

[Bald Rick]

I used this service yesterday.

The bus onwards to High Wycombe was late and the last one returning to Bourne End was 8:37pm from High Wycombe Town centre. It was also stuck in traffic around the A40.

The bus service is every hour on a Sunday.

Genuine question. Which do you think would be harder to achieve:

1) Building a brand new railway through Buckinghamshire, involving widespread land take, demolition, a crossing of the M40 and several other roads, which would take not less than 7-8 years from now to deliver, then paying c £2-3m pa for the additional operation and maintenance costs of a half hourly service, or,

2) Paying the bus company to run more and later buses, which could start next month.

 

[zwk500]

I used this service yesterday.
The bus onwards to High Wycombe was late and the last one returning to Bourne End was 8:37pm from High Wycombe Town centre. It was also stuck in traffic around the A40.
The bus service is every hour on a Sunday.
Hardly a decent replacement for a rail service that would run later, could possibly have a ½ hour service and not be subjected to traffic jams.
The last train back to Maidenhead from Bourne End was past midnight.

I've never understood the logic that says the bus cannot possibly run late at night, but that the train will always run late enough for me to get back from the pub. Plenty of places have buses long into the night, and plenty of others have train services finishing before 9pm.

As for the actual route.
The industrial estate could easily be demolished on one side. They look relatively low density units anyway. As for other parts, deviations are possible around Wooburn, skirting the old station site to the west.
Problems start to occur around Loudwater. Would it not possible to join the Chiltern line further South?
I don't know why many think a reopened route has to exactly follow the line of an old route that used to exist.
I think a single track route with passing loops at Cookham, Wooburn, or Loudwater would possibly work.

Most don't. They do, however, acknowledge that digging a brand new cutting/building a brand new embankment isn't a simple thing when you're working with properties very close to the boundary line. Soil strength and stability are concerns. There's also the environmental damage of major earthworks. At least if you're only skimming the topsoil off an old embankment to lay new ballast you're not making major changes to the local ecosystem.

Would Tram-Trains not be suitable for this line, allowing dedicated street running past Loudwater?

Depends what service you wanted. It's less than 15km Maidenhead-High Wycombe and probably doesn't need to be above 60mph but it wouldn't be the most comfortable ride in the world. There's also a very big question about whether the roads it would run on are suitable for trams.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t the whole point of this line to connect Oxford and Cambridge?

No. It is a regional service which will be used for many different overlapping local journeys, a bit like EMR's Liverpool to Norwich.

 

[Speed43125]

No. It is a regional service which will be used for many different overlapping local journeys, a bit like EMR's Liverpool to Norwich.

In the main those routes function like OXF-CAM, as they are currently unviable either outright or without a ridiculous (both in time and cost) out and back trip down to London. Granted going as far as Bedford connects the Chiltern, West Coast, and Midland Mainlines but I can see Wynd's point that missing out the final connecting options to the WA and ECML is a backstep for the goals of EWR.

 

[cle]

In the main those routes function like OXF-CAM, as they are currently unviable either outright or without a ridiculous (both in time and cost) out and back trip down to London. Granted going as far as Bedford connects the Chiltern, West Coast, and Midland Mainlines but I can see Wynd's point that missing out the final connecting options to the WA and ECML is a backstep for the goals of EWR.

It will be many things. But getting to Cambridge is the definite jewel - highest use station on the axis, and one of few booming/boomed, most successful (who knows right now!) city economies in the UK (to be fair, Oxford and Milton Keynes are among the other buoyant ones - Reading too if it ever gets there)

So it links many strong 'not-London, alt thriving' places people might want to live in/near, or commute to, due to their employment prospects - but it also connects a lot of the mainlines - admittedly not all at core nodes (Bletchley over MKC etc) - but still new connectivity. I'd expect a lot of homebuilding at Bicester, Bletchley, Bedford.

 

[Magdalia]

getting to Cambridge is the definite jewel - highest use station on the axis, and one of few booming/boomed, most successful (who knows right now!) city economies in the UK

Cambridge is already growing rapidly, and population rose by more than 15% between 2011 and 2021. But it could grow even more quickly, if not constrained by lack of homes, inadequate infrastructure, and planning restrictions.

I'd expect a lot of homebuilding at Bicester, Bletchley, Bedford.

The key places for housebuilding are at Cambourne and St Neots. There are 2 major proposals near to St Neots: Wintringham and Dennybrook.

A month ago I was pessimistic about the prospects for the Bedford-Cambridge section of EWR. Having watched the Special Economic Operation being set out on Friday, I'm now much more optimistic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it links many strong 'not-London, alt thriving' places people might want to live in/near, or commute to, due to their employment prospects - but it also connects a lot of the mainlines - admittedly not all at core nodes (Bletchley over MKC etc) - but still new connectivity. I'd expect a lot of homebuilding at Bicester, Bletchley, Bedford.

There isn't really anywhere, bar the old C&W site which is being done plus a couple of brownfield sites, to develop near Bletchley station. Though I suppose they could close the cement works and develop that - I had heard a suggestion that one option was to build a new multi storey station car park there and build houses on the existing one. Bicester has also gone from a small town to a large one in the time I've lived anywhere near it - quite a transformation really, and a bit New Town esque.

I'd look to build eco-villages centred on Marston Vale stations if it was me.

I also suspect Winslow will grow in a very Bicester like fashion.

 

[nw1]

Once that's in, see if there's room left for an MKC-Aylesbury service but it doesn't need to go any closer to London, so no extension of Marylebone trains. If need be the Bedford-Bletchley stopper could be extended to Aylesbury if the connections are reasonable, but Aylesbury traffic north is heading for central MK in my experience.

Why would you have separate MKC-Aylesbury and Aylesbury-London trains though? Surely you may as well run them through as one service rather than having two terminating trains meeting head-to-head.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you have separate MKC-Aylesbury and Aylesbury-London trains though? Surely you may as well run them through as one service rather than having two terminating trains meeting head-to-head.

Different needs, in particular train lengths and I suspect DOO-or-not. The one thing that might make sense operationally to attach to the Aylesbury EWR is the daytime Aylesbury to Risborough branch service.

The Aylesbury needs to go to MKC or there's no point doing it at all.