Chiltern considers Turbo future

[Nicholas Lewis]

Modern Railways Newsletter today are reporting that Chiltern are to run a market testing exercise

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/chiltern-considers-turbo-future

In early September Chiltern Railways was preparing to launch a market sounding exercise to consider options for the future of its Class 165 Turbo DMU fleet.

The operator has 28x2-car and 11x3-car ‘165s’, which operate alongside its more modern Class 168 DMUs and its loco-hauled sets. The market sounding exercise will consider two options for the future of the fleet – some form of hybrid conversion, or outright replacement.

The hybrid conversion is sensible but is surely only a short term solution and that electrification should be the long term solution especially as the key issue is fumes and noise at Marylebone where i would question that the battery on a hybrid could hold up air con and internal lighting for very long.

Also goes onto say that 175's maybe a suitable replacement for MkIII sets.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Modern Railways Newsletter today are reporting that Chiltern are to run a market testing exercise

This is very interesting and I would be keen to hear further developments as they’re released.

I don’t pay for Modern Railways. Can anyone possibly quote the article please?

 

[Mikey C]

It 100% makes sense to start planning for the future, but the key question if considering new stock is the timetable for electrification, which will drive whether to keep the current stock until the lines are wired then introduce new electric trains, or introduce bimodes, ready for wiring when it eventually happens. Or a bit of both

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s pretty clear from recent experience that converting c30 year old rolling stock into hybrids is a ’courageous’ option. Chiltern will no doubt be reminded of how successful their hybrid unit has been.

If a battery on a hybrid can power a train for, say, 20 miles miles, it sure can delivery lighting / heat / aircon for half an hour.

 

[CR165022]

Chiltern will no doubt be reminded of how successful their hybrid unit has been.

Not so sure about that, 168329 had to be boxed in by 2 165s the other week as it couldn't move by itself, it was going to Wolverton to have it fixed however it caused so many issues it didnt even make it there, and has been stored in Wembley ever since. However, apart from that, it seems to have done well!
Hopefully 165004 will be back soon so that they can test it finally and see if its a viable option for the rest of the fleet

 

[Jonny]

Chiltern has the additional complication (in terms of electrification) of sharing tracks with London Underground, and their third-fourth rail electrification system, from Amersham to Harrow-on-the-Hill, so if 25kV AC electrification is desired you would either need to stay with diesel over that section, have a dual-voltage unit or use some combination such as a dual-voltage EDMU (depending on the scheme).

 

[xotGD]

Replace the plastic with more loco hauled sets. Happy days.

 

[D365]

Replace the plastic with more loco hauled sets. Happy days.

Why are multiple units always equated with 'plastic'?

 

[Wolfie]

Replace the plastic with more loco hauled sets. Happy days.

No chance. If anything the exact opposite.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Why are multiple units always equated with 'plastic'?

Because this forum is full of cranks

 

[jackot]

It's sad to hear they are considering replacing the MkIIIs with 175s. Only travelled on a set a few weeks back, and it might have been my most comfortable train journey for years in the UK - I forget how nice it is not to have a 750hp engine chugging under your seat (cough.. voyagers). I can see the 175s being a good addition to the Chiltern Mainline fleet - not to replace the loco-hauled sets - but to displace some existing DMUs on longer workings, maybe allowing for some older 165s to be released.

As for hybridising the Turbos, I'm not very optimistic after seeing the "progress" of the 769s for GWR, but maybe the Turbos will be better, especially if they do lots of trials first.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if the lightweight bogies on a CAF DMU be modified to support the Tripcock bits to allow operation over LU metals between Harrow & Amersham.

In my eyes, the best solution will be something like a 197, maybe fitted with batteries to allow it to run on batteries in those areas where required (Marylebone station). Lets face it, the odds of wiring appearing on the Chiltern line anytime soon is remote, better areas for the wiring to go to fill in islands.

Order extras to bin off the old Mk3 coaches with IC70 seats for an extra bonus.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not so sure about that, 168329 had to be boxed in by 2 165s the other week as it couldn't move by itself, it was going to Wolverton to have it fixed however it caused so many issues it didnt even make it there, and has been stored in Wembley ever since. However, apart from that, it seems to have done well!
Hopefully 165004 will be back soon so that they can test it finally and see if its a viable option for the rest of the fleet

I perhaps didn’t indicate my sarcasm in the use of the word ‘successful’. Lowest form of wit, I know.

Chiltern has the additional complication (in terms of electrification) of sharing tracks with London Underground, and their third-fourth rail electrification system, from Amersham to Harrow-on-the-Hill, so if 25kV AC electrification is desired you would either need to stay with diesel over that section, have a dual-voltage unit or use some combination such as a dual-voltage EDMU (depending on the scheme).

from a technical point of view, dual voltage electrification of 25kV AC over 4th rail 750v DC is much, much easier than 25kV AC over 3rd rail 750vDC. Absolutely no reason they couldn’t work together.

Only travelled on a set a few weeks back, and it might have been my most comfortable train journey for years in the UK

funnily enough I travelled on one a few weeks ago and I’d forgotten how uncomfortable those seats were!

 

[Fincra5]

I perhaps didn’t indicate my sarcasm in the use of the word ‘successful’. Lowest form of wit, I know.




from a technical point of view, dual voltage electrification of 25kV AC over 4th rail 750v DC is much, much easier than 25kV AC over 3rd rail 750vDC. Absolutely no reason they couldn’t work together.




funnily enough I travelled on one a few weeks ago and I’d forgotten how uncomfortable those seats were!

I was going to say there is no massive reason that 4th Rail DC can't work below AC....

Really that's the most sensible option at least to Banbury... so it will be Bi-Mode 165s

 

[GEC465]

If anything the loco hauled sets are plastic but really it's probably best for 175s to replace the MK3 sets and aswell boosts operating flexibility

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If anything the loco hauled sets are plastic but really it's probably best for 175s to replace the MK3 sets and aswell boosts operating flexibility

Indeed if by plastic the @xotGD means new rolling stock the cl68s which haul the mk3s are the newest vehicles on the entire Chiltern operation.

 

[GEC465]

Indeed if by plastic the @xotGD means new rolling stock the cl68s which haul the mk3s are the newest vehicles on the entire Chiltern operation.

The MK3 DVTs also have plastic cabs.

 

[xotGD]

Because this forum is full of cranks

A rail forum populated by rail enthusiasts. It's outrageous!

Sadly I think that the loco hauled sets on Chiltern are on borrowed time.

 

[tbtc]

Only right that TOCs occasionally run “market testing exercises” to check that they are getting value for money

But I wonder if we’ll look back nostalgically at this thread as one of the last times that a TOC was allowed to use some initiative in terms of future stock procurement, rather than the DfT organising everything for them

(Would be happy if Chiltern got the 175s, at least it’ll stop people wasting crayons coming up with reasons why Northern “need” these 100mph end door DMUs)

 

[brad465]

Presumably outright DMUs won't be ordered as, without further hybrid conversion in future, legislation will render them useless in less than 20 years. How much is electrification complicated by sharing LUL tracks?

 

[D365]

Presumably outright DMUs won't be ordered as, without further hybrid conversion in future, legislation will render them useless in less than 20 years. How much is electrification complicated by sharing LUL tracks?

Scroll up; this discussion has taken place already

 

[Techniquest]

funnily enough I travelled on one a few weeks ago and I’d forgotten how uncomfortable those seats were!

I last did a MK3 set from Solihull to Leamington Spa on 30th June 2022, especially to have some 68 push-age. Those armrests in the MK3s are a part of the past, and the MK3 seats weren't as good as my rose-tinted glasses were telling me they were. Add in some gymnastics to get to/from the window seat at a table seat, and I was re-writing my memory of the MK3s simply as 'time to retire these things'. Thankfully the rest of the world has updated itself with better seating configurations!

Chiltern looking at Turbo replacements is interesting. I wonder how much longer it'll be before the 168s get the same consideration, they must be getting on a bit by now, especially the 168/0s.

 

[Mikey C]

I last did a MK3 set from Solihull to Leamington Spa on 30th June 2022, especially to have some 68 push-age. Those armrests in the MK3s are a part of the past, and the MK3 seats weren't as good as my rose-tinted glasses were telling me they were. Add in some gymnastics to get to/from the window seat at a table seat, and I was re-writing my memory of the MK3s simply as 'time to retire these things'. Thankfully the rest of the world has updated itself with better seating configurations!

Chiltern looking at Turbo replacements is interesting. I wonder how much longer it'll be before the 168s get the same consideration, they must be getting on a bit by now, especially the 168/0s.

If/when the line is electrified, then all stock will go, but you'd have thought the 168s would survive until them.

The 165s on the mainline stopping services are a pain as they're 75 mph units on a 100 mph railway. But with their effective air cooling and 2+2 seating at the ends of the carriages, they're not bad units, if looking a bit tired inside now.

 

[A0]

I was going to say there is no massive reason that 4th Rail DC can't work below AC....

Really that's the most sensible option at least to Banbury... so it will be Bi-Mode 165s

I suspect the bigger problem is whether LUL want 25kv wires over their lines - my suspicion is they won't, especially as that particular bit of infrastructure would be owned by Network Rail.

Dual voltage units would make more sense and use the 4th rail between Harrow and Amersham, on the proviso the 4th rail can handle the additional traffic.

The Wycombe line 25kv is the right answer, providing the clearances are sufficient through the approach tunnels to Marylebone.

 

[A0]

If/when the line is electrified, then all stock will go, but you'd have thought the 168s would survive until them.

The 165s on the mainline stopping services are a pain as they're 75 mph units on a 100 mph railway. But with their effective air cooling and 2+2 seating at the ends of the carriages, they're not bad units, if looking a bit tired inside now.

Well it depends on how often the top speed is actually achieved, compared to the better acceleration a low geared unit has. If the 75mph units have better acceleration away from stations that can offset a lower top speed.

 

[RailWonderer]

Because this forum is full of cranks

*Pre-Beeching cuts 1960s cranks.

 

[Mollman]

Chiltern has the additional complication (in terms of electrification) of sharing tracks with London Underground, and their third-fourth rail electrification system, from Amersham to Harrow-on-the-Hill, so if 25kV AC electrification is desired you would either need to stay with diesel over that section, have a dual-voltage unit or use some combination such as a dual-voltage EDMU (depending on the scheme).

Shouldn't be an issue as the District line out of Richmond has been used by both 4th Rail LU trains and 3rd rail BR / National Rail trains for a long time.

 

[A60stock]

If overhead wires are chosen, where would the switch over from overhead to third rail and vice versa for Aylesbury via Amersham/Marylebone via Amersham trains take place? I am guessing Harrow/Amersham but there are some peak hour trains that bypass Harrow on the Hill and Amersham and do not stop, in particular, the morning peak trains going south pass through at some speed so would need to switch over on the move from third rail to overhead. The shared bits with the Underground are probably more complicated than one would think!

Either way, overhead wires would be required at Harrow?Amersham and go into LU territory (just about). LU may have issue with this

 

[Wolfie]

Shouldn't be an issue as the District line out of Richmond has been used by both 4th Rail LU trains and 3rd rail BR / National Rail trains for a long time.

Very different to 4 rail LU and 25kV overhead power.

 

[bramling]

Shouldn't be an issue as the District line out of Richmond has been used by both 4th Rail LU trains and 3rd rail BR / National Rail trains for a long time.

The problem is it would require a redesign of LU’s electrification between Harrow and Amersham (and potentially implications for Chesham and Watford too). Who is going to pay for that?