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Stagecoach East Scotland

Blindtraveler

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Having sat and had a more detailed look at what they are proposing to do with the express services, I think they're probably attempting to balance supply and demand. Supply being drivers and demand being the number of passengers that have continue to use the services and indeed no doubt a fair number gained through the ongoing in competence of Scotrail. I know that there's no doubt plenty of these on corridors such as Dunfermline and Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy and Cupar towards Edinburgh in particular and wonder if the increasing of services via Dalgety Bay has a bearing on this as well
 
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computerSaysNo

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I haven't had a full look at the service changes and I don't use Stagecoach Fife services very much.
If they're cutting the frequency of some of the Express routes, would it not be beneficial to use much larger capacity vehicles on them? I was waiting for a local bus at Craigleith at about 4pm a few weeks ago and every Fife-bound Stagecoach bus which went past was showing "bus full".
Having been on Panoramas recently, it's noticeable how few seats the shorter Elites have in comparison. Maybe that's just an issue during the rail strikes though.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Having sat and had a more detailed look at what they are proposing to do with the express services, I think they're probably attempting to balance supply and demand. Supply being drivers and demand being the number of passengers that have continue to use the services and indeed no doubt a fair number gained through the ongoing in competence of Scotrail. I know that there's no doubt plenty of these on corridors such as Dunfermline and Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy and Cupar towards Edinburgh in particular and wonder if the increasing of services via Dalgety Bay has a bearing on this as well
With the number of cuts being made elsewhere, I don't imagine there will be much in the way of driver shortages at depots from October 31st. As per the post quoted below, I don't think demand is the issue on the Edinburgh/Glasgow expresses; buses leave both termini full frequently. Glasgow is a much greater issue as it's now a half-hourly service (every 15 mins pre-covid), so if one trip is dropped it's a 60 minute gap in service and folk are usually left behind.

On the Edinburgh services you also have the issue of local passengers (going from the City Centre to Craigleith, Barnton, etc.) taking up seats when they could be using alternative local services.
I haven't had a full look at the service changes and I don't use Stagecoach Fife services very much.
If they're cutting the frequency of some of the Express routes, would it not be beneficial to use much larger capacity vehicles on them? I was waiting for a local bus at Craigleith at about 4pm a few weeks ago and every Fife-bound Stagecoach bus which went past was showing "bus full".
Having been on Panoramas recently, it's noticeable how few seats the shorter Elites have in comparison. Maybe that's just an issue during the rail strikes though.
Panoramas are unsuitable for the Fife bus stations due to the middle door wheelchair access. 15 meter coaches are also unsuitable for parts of the (current) X60 and X61 routes. You also have the issue of the Tay and Forth Road Bridges. IIRC, the short Elites on Fife express have 49 seats, Panther LEs have 55 seats and the tri-axle Elites have either 57 or 61 seats. It's possible to allocate double decks to the Express services, and it's common during the Festival and on Sundays, but then you get folk moaning that it's not a coach and "that's not what I've paid for", or you upset cyclists as they're unable to carry their bike on the bus unfolded (it can go in the luggage holder on coaches).

It's probably worth remembering that although Stagecoach market the Fife "X" services as an express network, they're really just local services which go to Edinburgh/Glasgow and are operated by coaches. It shouldn't really be compared to the likes of Citylink/Megabus. This was apparent during The Open when Stagecoach were inundated with queries on how to book these services or how guarantee as seat, when you can't - just like you can't on your local town service.
 

kez19

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Regarding the 42 route in general, happy to stand corrected but wasn’t that a Tayport only, it then got extended to St Andrews and now Glenrothes?

Also to add was the 42 a renumber of the old 96 that went that way?

Wasn’t there an X42 though that went Glenrothes direct? I admit I have only used the 99 St Andrews bus but no further services into Fife.
 

Stan Drews

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Regarding the 42 route in general, happy to stand corrected but wasn’t that a Tayport only, it then got extended to St Andrews and now Glenrothes?

Also to add was the 42 a renumber of the old 96 that went that way?

Wasn’t there an X42 though that went Glenrothes direct? I admit I have only used the 99 St Andrews bus but no further services into Fife.
The 42 was Cupar - Tayport - Dundee and the 96 was St.Andrews - Tayport - Dundee. Indeed for many years, prior to the Strathtay acquisition, they both extended to/from Ninewells Hospital. They were inter worked at Ninewells, and operated from St.Andrews depot. It’s all been downhill since then!
 

kez19

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The 42 was Cupar - Tayport - Dundee and the 96 was St.Andrews - Tayport - Dundee. Indeed for many years, prior to the Strathtay acquisition, they both extended to/from Ninewells Hospital. They were inter worked at Ninewells, and operated from St.Andrews depot. It’s all been downhill since then!

I’m surprised at that, so there was a direct link from St Andrews to Ninewells!

It does seem like Stagecoach is trying to have as many routes connecting to Ninewells too these days!

On the Dundee side for Ninewells I’m aware of the X7, 16, 39, 73

What routes are they from Fife to Ninewells (or Seagate)?
 

NorthOxonian

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With the number of cuts being made elsewhere, I don't imagine there will be much in the way of driver shortages at depots from October 31st. As per the post quoted below, I don't think demand is the issue on the Edinburgh/Glasgow expresses; buses leave both termini full frequently. Glasgow is a much greater issue as it's now a half-hourly service (every 15 mins pre-covid), so if one trip is dropped it's a 60 minute gap in service and folk are usually left behind.
I saw first hand how bad the Glasgow services can get a few weeks ago. I was at Cumbernauld on a Saturday lunchtime, and most of the services towards Glasgow were badly disrupted with either cancellations or services running extremely late. The X24 and X27 were the only reliable routes... but the two that came through while I was waiting were both full. Even if it's not covering the full route, shuttles between Dunfermline, Kincardine, Cumbernauld, and Glasgow during these busiest times would surely break even?
 

overthewater

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Having sat and had a more detailed look at what they are proposing to do with the express services, I think they're probably attempting to balance supply and demand. Supply being drivers and demand being the number of passengers that have continue to use the services and indeed no doubt a fair number gained through the ongoing in competence of Scotrail. I know that there's no doubt plenty of these on corridors such as Dunfermline and Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy and Cupar towards Edinburgh in particular and wonder if the increasing of services via Dalgety Bay has a bearing on this as well

I wish was the company was, but no demand is outstripping supply by wide margins.

I saw first hand how bad the Glasgow services can get a few weeks ago. I was at Cumbernauld on a Saturday lunchtime, and most of the services towards Glasgow were badly disrupted with either cancellations or services running extremely late. The X24 and X27 were the only reliable routes... but the two that came through while I was waiting were both full. Even if it's not covering the full route, shuttles between Dunfermline, Kincardine, Cumbernauld, and Glasgow during these busiest times would surely break even?

Alas there is no spare driver to provide such a shuttle.

I’m surprised at that, so there was a direct link from St Andrews to Ninewells!

It does seem like Stagecoach is trying to have as many routes connecting to Ninewells too these days!

On the Dundee side for Ninewells I’m aware of the X7, 16, 39, 73

What routes are they from Fife to Ninewells (or Seagate)?

If you mean a bus which went around the houses and took an hour then yes. There is no service from Fife to Ninewells anymore, the old X42 used to, then it was the X54 but then stuck up people complained about the tri-axle coaches.



Some say the proposed timetable will force them into using or buying a car just to be able to travel to work.
Transport remains the leading cause of emissions as Scotland battles the climate emergency.

Stagecoach – which made an operating profit of around £72m last year – is proposing hundreds of timetable changes in the Fife and Perth area. The company has been regularly cancelling services due to a shortage of drivers.

That proposed changes include a wide range of cuts and altered services. The company is cancelling its 77 daily service linking Dundee, Newport-on-Tay, Wormit and Gauldry. That comes despite nearly 300 new houses in Wormit, and 30 in Gauldry, approaching completion.

Perthshire cuts include the end to a direct service between Alyth and Perth. While there will be no bus to either Dundee or Perth from Errol and St Madoes in the Carse of Gowrie until after 7am.

The changes are slated to come into affect on Monday, October 31.

Stagecoach cuts show ‘complete lack of appreciation’
Invergowrie Labour councillor Alasdair Bailey called for a rethink over the proposed timetable. He said: “To leave Errol and St Madoes without a bus to either Dundee or Perth until after 7am shows a complete lack of appreciation for the workers who keep our world ticking over.“I’ve heard from so many people, from nurses at Ninewells to lollipop men in Perth who will be completely stuck if this change goes ahead.”

He continued: “The reality is that, unless Stagecoach relent, this will lead to many more people being forced to either quit their jobs or buy a car. “Neither outcome is good for our economy or our planet and I hope that Stagecoach sees sense and puts the early buses back.” One regular bus commuter from Alyth, who didn’t wish to be named, added: “One of the great attractions of living in Alyth is that we are connected by bus to two cities, Dundee and Perth.
“Removing the direct link to Perth will mean I have to drive to the city for work, adding pollution and congestion to already choked roads.

“This is a backwards move that will affect others as well.”
 

kez19

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I wish was the company was, but no demand is outstripping supply by wide margins.



Alas there is no spare driver to provide such a shuttle.



If you mean a bus which went around the houses and took an hour then yes. There is no service from Fife to Ninewells anymore, the old X42 used to, then it was the X54 but then stuck up people complained about the tri-axle coaches.



I’m now curious what has Stagecoach got planned for the Dundee side (or does that fall under Angus?)

I do wonder how Stagecoach will operate the new spilt service in October around St Andrews which I believe parts of the 99 cover (90/91/93), I seen the map above for it, will it be 3 buses or will it be just one going round in circles changing destination?
 

Simon75

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I wish was the company was, but no demand is outstripping supply by wide margins.



Alas there is no spare driver to provide such a shuttle.



If you mean a bus which went around the houses and took an hour then yes. There is no service from Fife to Ninewells anymore, the old X42 used to, then it was the X54 but then stuck up people complained about the tri-axle coaches.



Typical media article
As group they may have made £72 million, but they haven't printed a break down of each division, so unless we look at annual reports, we don't which divisions are making money
Bus companies don't change routes for no reason
 

PaulMc7

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Typical media article
As group they may have made £72 million, but they haven't printed a break down of each division, so unless we look at annual reports, we don't which divisions are making money
Bus companies don't change routes for no reason
99% of passengers don't even get why they do it let alone the media and politicians etc. Is East Scotland even that profitable? I've never seen actual figures for past years but it never ever seemed that good especially when you look at Fife in particular.
 

overthewater

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The media attention is growing. That early morning X56 at 4.30am journey keeps on getting mentioned. Alot of MSP, and councillors are also jumping in with feedback.


Stagecoach has been warned that its new timetable proposal involving the removal of early morning services in Perth and Kinross could force some workers to “quit their jobs or buy a car”.

The Dunkeld Road-based national bus operator published a public consultation on its website last week detailing mooted service changes across the network, taking affect from October 31.

The revised timetables would see the deletion of a number of early morning bus routes as well as the removal of an entire day’s service in one instance.

Among the changes, travellers would see the X56 service from Perth to Edinburgh have its hourly Monday to Saturday schedule restored - but the Sunday service would be withdrawn “due to low usage”.

The 15A service from Perth to Stirling via Crieff would be reduced to every two hours and the 34 ( Perth to Blairgowrie ) and 57 (Perth to Dundee) would have their Saturday frequency reduced to “reflect current usage”.

Meanwhile, the number 16 service between Perth and Dundee will see “some am and pm journeys withdrawn”, which Carse of Gowrie Councillor Alasdair Bailey warns will be detrimental for key workers.

The service would no longer have any pre-7am departures from St Madoes and Errol to Dundee with still no services set up between 7.20am and 9.30am.

Errol to Perth departures at 5.59am and 6.37am have also been removed with the first bus for Perth set at 7.16am.
And the village would continue without a service leaving for Perth between 7.49am and 9.25am.

Cllr Bailey warned: “To leave Errol and St Madoes without a bus to either Dundee or Perth until after 7am shows a complete lack of appreciation for the workers who keep our world ticking over.

“I’ve heard from so many people, from nurses at Ninewells to lollipop men in Perth who will be completely stuck if this change goes ahead.

“The reality is that, unless Stagecoach relent, this will lead to many more people being forced to either quit their jobs or buy a car. Neither outcome is good for our economy or our planet and I hope that Stagecoach sees sense and puts the early buses back.”

Closer to the Fair City, a new number 8 service would partly replace the number 7 between the city centre and Hillend and a new number 18 would replace the number 9 between the city centre and Aviva.

The earliest weekday 23/27 service to and from Perth and Aberfeldy, which leaves Mill Street at 5.50am, would also be axed.

The deletion means that the first bus leaving the Highland Perthshire town for Perth would become the 8.45am service - arriving on Mill Street at 10.15am.

Highland ward councillor John Duff fears this will be calamitous for local residents who work and study in the Fair City.

“Stagecoach has indicated that they are proposing these changes due to the current low usage figures for these services,” he commented.

“I am concerned about these possible changes to services, especially the early morning departure from Aberfeldy.

“It means that bus travellers will not arrive in Perth until 10.15am at the earliest during the week. That may be too late for some workers or students. I would urge anyone who may be affected by the proposals to go online and complete a consultation response.”


He has written to Stagecoach urging the bus company to re-think - and he urged commuters affected by the proposed changes to get involved in the consultation possess which ends this month.

Weekend services are not affected by the proposal, but the changes have raised concerns.
Cllr Leslie, who represents Kirkcaldy North, said: “This is the only bus that covers the estate to remove the daytime service will leave some residents unable to travel to work during the day.
“I have had people contact me to express their concerns as to this change. If you don’t have a car what are you to do?”He added: “This seems a very short-sighted approach by Stagecoach, particularly when people are being encouraged to use public transport more often.

“I have written to Stagecoach as a matter of urgency to request they reconsider this.” The evening and Sunday services remain unaffected because they are subsidised by Fife Council.

But Cllr Leslie said: “This is not much help to those who rely on the bus for getting into the town for work or onward travel during the day.”He encouraged locals to complete the online consultation which runs until September 12.

A spokesperson for Stagecoach East Scotland, said "All of the changes proposed for October are currently under consultation.

“We encourage feedback to be submitted via our website, and we're also still in active discussion with local authorities.

"The Scottish Government's Covid recovery funding for bus services ends on October 9, and all operators will be similarly impacted.

“Travel habits have changed since the pandemic and fewer people are now using some bus services, while the cost of operating is rising sharply.

“We will always try to keep routes operational where we can, however where there are very low passenger numbers it is sometimes just not possible to do so.

“We have designed a new core network for East Scotland to provide a sustainable bus network.”
 

Stan Drews

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It’s amazing how many elected representatives are completely clueless about how public transport funding works!
If all these links are essential then the appropriate councils will clearly fund their retention. That is their role, not that of Stagecoach or any other commercial operator in the area.
The Scottish Government are apparently adamant that they will not continue the National funding beyond October, unlike in England, so presumably they have been made aware of the likely consequences …or perhaps they didn’t believe them?
 

PaulMc7

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It’s amazing how many elected representatives are completely clueless about how public transport funding works!
If all these links are essential then the appropriate councils will clearly fund their retention. That is their role, not that of Stagecoach or any other commercial operator in the area.
The Scottish Government are apparently adamant that they will not continue the National funding beyond October, unlike in England, so presumably they have been made aware of the likely consequences …or perhaps they didn’t believe them?
The problem is a large chunk of society are naive enough to blame the companies making cuts rather than the government for cutting funding. They don't realise that if funding wasn't being cut and the government actually helped companies get new drivers in these cuts wouldn't be happening.

The average passenger will call a bus being 2 mins late a disgrace and that every bus would be uber frequent if the government ran them.

I've seen it enough times here in Glasgow too. People whinge at drivers for being late while totally ignoring the 500 cars that have gone by within 7-8 mins and the roadworks at the next corner.
 

Simon75

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The problem is a large chunk of society are naive enough to blame the companies making cuts rather than the government for cutting funding. They don't realise that if funding wasn't being cut and the government actually helped companies get new drivers in these cuts wouldn't be happening.

The average passenger will call a bus being 2 mins late a disgrace and that every bus would be uber frequent if the government ran them.

I've seen it enough times here in Glasgow too. People whinge at drivers for being late while totally ignoring the 500 cars that have gone by within 7-8 mins and the roadworks at the next corner.
I've often argue on social media explaining to people that.
The ones that agree with me are often in the industry (where I'm not, or ever have been)
 

PaulMc7

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I've often argue on social media explaining to people that.
The ones that agree with me are often in the industry (where I'm not, or ever have been)
I had someone wanting to meet me to fight me because their partner couldn't accept that roadworks make buses late one time. Social media just seems to bring out the worst in them but in public they can be just as bad.

Stagecoach are just the big bad guy to most and always will be unfortunately.
 

overthewater

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With the amount of feedback and political response, what are the chance some minor improvements could be made to soften the blow of these changes?
 

JamesT

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I think the writing has been on the wall for the 14 for a while given the service it currently gets. Mostly only hourly, even then they skip the 4pm service to staff school buses instead. So it’s the usual chicken and egg, nobody uses an infrequent service which gives the company no reason to increase frequency.
It’s a far cry from the old K4 days when there were periods of 3 buses an hour.
 

traction22

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Apologies for tagging this here, it's sort of related, sort of should be a new thread.

I'm doing research into Strathtay. Does anyone know where I might obtain local news sheets (Not PSV Circle) which included Strathtay from around 1993 to 2006?
Might anyone also point me in the right direction for a final Strathtay fleet list prior to takeover by the Traction Group?

Thanksl.
 

DunsBus

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With the amount of feedback and political response, what are the chance some minor improvements could be made to soften the blow of these changes?
From my own experience, these passenger surveys mean very little. My local operator, Borders Buses, has released several surveys since the first lockdown ended in 2020 and each time all that's come out of them have been timetable tweaks, rather than any actual service improvements (the exception being the X62, which was only improved after the local MSP kicked up a stink.)
 

overthewater

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It does look like some of these changes are rather brazen, and make no sense. They seem to be cutting the busier early morning runs and replacing them with pointless later journeys which are no good to man nor beast.

I think the writing has been on the wall for the 14 for a while given the service it currently gets. Mostly only hourly, even then they skip the 4pm service to staff school buses instead. So it’s the usual chicken and egg, nobody uses an infrequent service which gives the company no reason to increase frequency.
It’s a far cry from the old K4 days when there were periods of 3 buses an hour.

The trouble is even back when it was every 30mins it was still carrying fresh air. The real trouble is the people of Dunnikier only have one option where the bus goes, Kirkcaldy town centre and well it not exactly the bees knees anymore. So if people want to go to Reject, or Retail park etc it would mean changing buses at Valley gardens
 

overthewater

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So the consultation closes tomorrow morning, but how will this play out during this week? Will the Stagecoach & the politicians come to some agreement to stop some of the cuts from happening?

Some of the complaints have no merit but, that all down to the extremely poor explanation about the changes, making it near impossible to figure what some of the replacement services are. It's clear someone has taken a knife to the network and the changes are not good.

I think most of the changes will go ahead but we might see some roll back on the following points:

* Early morning journeys ( across Fife and Perthshire)
* X37 being kept once an hour Glenrothes - Kirkcaldy bus stance
* Extra runs on the 30 ( maybe the should combine the 30 and 38)
* Parts of the Express network
* Fife council tender for 14 during the daytime
 

kez19

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Just a small question of the split of the 99 sevices within St Andrews splitting to be other numbers, I understand for reliabilty as at times the town centre can get busy but having the other numbers act as a mini circular is there any point to it? You could ask how many circulars does one town need?

Just to quote a page back:

90/91: St Andrews Circular
New town service split from the service 99 to improve reliability and cross-town links.

93: St Andrews – Morrisons
New town service split from the service 99 to improve reliability.

I didn't even know that one of the 99s had went to a Morrisons! When I have used the service I have been use to it going into the bus station to then go along the main road then come round and back.
 

Stan Drews

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Just a small question of the split of the 99 sevices within St Andrews splitting to be other numbers, I understand for reliabilty as at times the town centre can get busy but having the other numbers act as a mini circular is there any point to it? You could ask how many circulars does one town need?

Just to quote a page back:



I didn't even know that one of the 99s had went to a Morrisons! When I have used the service I have been use to it going into the bus station to then go along the main road then come round and back.
I think all the current 99 variations pass the Morrison’s store in the town.
 

Fifescottish

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I wonder if the 89 being Mon-Fri only is correct, this leaves some areas without a service on Saturdays and Pitcorthie which is currently serviced every 30 mins will have an hourly service on a Saturday but still every 30 mins Mon-Fri.
 

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