Railway-wise, what is each country best at?

[Bletchleyite]

I think the complication with OVFiets is that they need to be able to bill you the cost of the bike if you steal it.

 

[AlexNL]

With credit cards it'd be possible to place a € 250 reservation on your card (the replacement value of the bike) which gets changed to the rental fee once you've handed the bike in and it's verified to still be in good condition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With credit cards it'd be possible to place a € 250 reservation on your card (the replacement value of the bike) which gets changed to the rental fee once you've handed the bike in and it's verified to still be in good condition.

Yeah, that is how car hire companies do it, and is why they only accept credit and not debit cards, as for a car you need a far higher hold than anyone would be willing to lose out of their current account.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Albania for somehow keeping a tiny operation running despite no maintenance whatsoever other than what the driver can do himself.

Haha! On a similar note, Andorra is the best at having one station but having never had a single metre of track. Surprisingly for somewhere so mountainous and reliant on winter sports there are no funiculars either.

Watching Munich S-bahn trains couple together is certainly interesting. Done somewhat more briskly than in the UK - the trains are together and doors released almost before you know it.

A few years ago I was on the French sleeper from Latour-de-Carol to Paris (which calls at "Andorra Parkway") and was impressed and slightly alarmed at the speed that another portion was attached at Bordeaux. I was in the last set of seats at the rear of the last coach, and the two bits coupled with a fair old whack. For those who had already fallen asleep in their berths I'd be surprised if they weren't woken up. Wish I'd realised what was happening sooner so I could have caught it on camera!

 

[DanielB]

I think the complication with OVFiets is that they need to be able to bill you the cost of the bike if you steal it.

As long as they've got an IBAN they'll able to do that. And as they accept German and Belgian IBANs it shouldn't be that much of a difference when you provide an UK IBAN.

 

[philg999]

As long as they've got an IBAN they'll able to do that. And as they accept German and Belgian IBANs it shouldn't be that much of a difference when you provide an UK IBAN.

Unless a UK person has a Euro account (not possible with a normal bank), providers charge a €25 fee to do any kind of transaction through a UK IBAN as you have to use SWIFT for the GBP switch since Brexit. So it’s not practical to use these for small/frequent charges anymore. (They also don’t support direct debits).

 

[johncrossley]

There’s a €25 fee to do any kind of transaction through a UK IBAN as these have to be SWIFT transactions since Brexit. So it’s not practical to use these for small/frequent charges anymore. (They also don’t support direct debits).

The UK is still in the SEPA payment system despite Brexit. My Revolut account (with GB IBAN) does instant bank transfers to Euro bank accounts in other countries at no cost.

 

[DanielB]

Unless a UK person has a Euro account (not possible with a normal bank), providers charge a €25 fee to do any kind of transaction through a UK IBAN as you have to use SWIFT for the GBP switch since Brexit. So it’s not practical to use these for small/frequent charges anymore. (They also don’t support direct debits).

OV fiets has monthly invoices, so no frequent charges. But the problem might be that direct debit is not possible.
OVpay won't change that as OV fiets is already completely back office based. The OV chipcard is only linked to your subscription, it's not a product loaded onto the chipcard.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Thanks for the replies re OV-Fiets - it is a shame that a potentially large customer base, namely foreign tourists, are effectively barred from using it. On my last visit to Utrecht I had to scrabble around finding a bike shop to hire privately. NS doesn't really encourage you to take your own bike on trains either.

 

[johncrossley]

Thanks for the replies re OV-Fiets - it is a shame that a potentially large customer base, namely foreign tourists, are effectively barred from using it. On my last visit to Utrecht I had to scrabble around finding a bike shop to hire privately. NS doesn't really encourage you to take your own bike on trains either.

Couldn't you get one from the bike shop in Utrecht Centraal station?

 

[TheSeeker]

Another good thing about Belgium is that my employer pays for my season ticket. I have the choice of a parking space at the office or to come by train. Not sure exactly how much I contribute but it is very small and pre-tax. I've talked with people working in other companies and they have received upgrades to first class season tickets in lieu of a pay rise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another good thing about Belgium is that my employer pays for my season ticket. I have the choice of a parking space at the office or to come by train. Not sure exactly how much I contribute but it is very small and pre-tax. I've talked with people working in other companies and they have received upgrades to first class season tickets in lieu of a pay rise.

The UK doesn't allow "ordinary commuting" by any mode other than bicycle* or free on premise car parking to be tax deductible. This is in my view a bit inconsistent. I don't have an issue with cycling, but the car parking is a bit of an anomaly.

* That is the Cycle to Work Scheme.

 

[nw1]

Approach speeds are generally much higher in other countries than the UK - the speed DB trains go into bays is quite something, I remember going from Munich to Salzburg on DB a while back, had my head out of the window on the approach and we were near enough at linespeed at the end of the bay - of course the brakes were chucked in hard and we stopped, almost in one go, in a perfect position. Not much room for error though!

That is something I definitely remember from places like Germany or Austria - IC trains coming into the station at quite a rate and decelerating fast. Not sure if the reason is technical (their stock was built for it) or legal (different health and safety rules), though.

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I think the UK excels in the growth of buddleia...

Germany excels in the growth of some plant with similar spreading characteristics, but not sure what it is. Something large that looks a bit exotic, as if it were more suited to a warmer climate than that of Germany, and whatever it is, I've seen quite a lot on the continent, but not here. No visible flowers, a woody stem, and narrow, oval-shaped leaves I think? (sorry for vagueness).

 

[DanielB]

The UK doesn't allow "ordinary commuting" by any mode other than bicycle* or free on premise car parking to be tax deductible. This is in my view a bit inconsistent. I don't have an issue with cycling, but the car parking is a bit of an anomaly.

* That is the Cycle to Work Scheme.

The Netherlands has a bit of a mix of what's mentioned here for Belgium and the UK. Anyone is eligible for a tax free compensation of travel expenses being 19 cent per km, regardless you commute by car, public transport or bike.
However employers are also allowed to pay 100% of a public transport season ticket. And employees not receiving any or just a partial compensation from their employer can deduct their expenses for public transport from income taxes.

 

[nw1]

And return fares for the price of a single at weekends (including Friday evenings). The airport surcharge is pretty steep though.

Some interesting trains too - plenty of loco hauled (albeit push pull) trains, rather nice double decker coaches with big windows and EMUs with a most unusual design for corridor connections through intermediate cab ends.

I've visited briefly and would rather like to spend some more time travelling on trains there.

I have been to, or passed through, Belgium on the train multiple times from 2009-19.

The variety of stock, and in particular the large number of EMU designs (some very interesting looking, and many of them very 'classic' in look), struck me. The Netherlands too, with their yellow EMUs which look a bit like a Class 37 from the front, but I think they have now been withdrawn.

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Answering the thread's question in general, sorry the posts have been auto-combined:

Germany (in 2009-14 at least, when I visited regularly) is good at combining a clockface timetable with wide variety of final destinations.

The philosophy in Germany in this period seemed to be to offer clockface timetables on "segments" between key "node" stations (let's say, Frankfurt to Munich via either route), but the destination beyond the "node" would not be the same each hour. However, good connections at the "nodes" were provided, so, with a change (or not), the same journey could be made each hour.

A bit like the old (and much more interesting) XC operations in the UK back in BR and early Virgin days with New Street obviously being the key "node" but variations in destination - e.g. trains north from Reading going to a different final destination each hour, but all heading for New Street and (mostly) running at the same time each hour.

Germany also was good at keeping a relatively large number of small branch lines open, sometimes run by a local operator. Bad Krozingen to Münstertal, just south of Freiburg for example. A charming single line branch, run (when I visited in 1987 and later 2009) with single-car DMUs and serving one medium-sized (Staufen) and one small town (Münstertal itself). I suspect there would be zero chance of such a branch surviving Beeching in the UK.

 

[AdamWW]

When OV-Pay rollout is complete, the Netherlands will presumably be the first country to have touch in touch out contactless, just like it was the first country to have nationwide touch in touch out smartcards. It must be stressed though that if you only use the train and not local or regional transport, you don't need an OV-Chipkaart and you can buy tickets in the same way as you can in other countries. Either as an e-ticket or from the machine or even ticket office (if available).

And if I've understood correctly, an e-ticket is the same price as using the OV-Chipkaart but with the addition of allowing breaks of journey, whereas with the Chipkaart it will generally count as separate journeys and thus cost more.

And the large discounts for off peak group travel are only available as e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

Unless a UK person has a Euro account (not possible with a normal bank), providers charge a €25 fee to do any kind of transaction through a UK IBAN as you have to use SWIFT for the GBP switch since Brexit. So it’s not practical to use these for small/frequent charges anymore. (They also don’t support direct debits).

I recently had to make a small payment by bank transfer to Germany and was very pleased to see that from my ordinary UK bank account I could do it without costing me (or the recipient) anything. The only problem was that I could only specify the amount in pounds, and having selected the right value to get the correct one in Euros you then had a very short time to submit the form before the exchange rate updated itself.

I have been to, or passed through, Belgium on the train multiple times from 2009-19.

The variety of stock, and in particular the large number of EMU designs (some very interesting looking, and many of them very 'classic' in look), struck me. The Netherlands too, with their yellow EMUs which look a bit like a Class 37 from the front, but I think they have now been withdrawn.

I've found the limited amount I've seen of Belgium trains a lot more interesting than the Netherlands - NS seems to have done a good job at replacing many of the older (but - to me - interesting) trains with newer ones. And there are very few loco hauled services left apart from the top and tailed trains using the high speed lines, which themselves won't be around for much longer I think. (I'm also probably a bit biassed because I've had quite a few trips to the Netherlands and I've spent very little time in Belgium so it has much more novelty value).

NS used to have some short loco hauled double deck push pull trains that were treated as EMUs and sometimes worked in multiple, giving the interesting sight of trains with one or even two locomotives in the middle. They still seem to have some of the stock though, with the loco replaced with a three bogie power unit with a similar height to the coaches but with only one level of seating to allow for the power equipment.

In my brief recent forays into Belgium I came across plenty of loco hauled push pull trains mostly with double decker coaches, including some with a mix of single and double deck (something I haven't seen in many parts of the world) as well as EMUs ranging from ancient to modern. (And Antwerp has some impressively ancient trams too). Brussels also has (or at any rate used to have) a train themed hostel which incoporates some old sleeper coaches into the building. I really must go and spend some time in Belgium.

 

[nw1]

And if I've understood correctly, an e-ticket is the same price as using the OV-Chipkaart but with the addition of allowing breaks of journey, whereas with the Chipkaart it will generally count as separate journeys and thus cost more.

And the large discounts for off peak group travel are only available as e-tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==



I recently had to make a small payment by bank transfer to Germany and was very pleased to see that from my ordinary UK bank account I could do it without costing me (or the recipient) anything. The only problem was that I could only specify the amount in pounds, and having selected the right value to get the correct one in Euros you then had a very short time to submit the form before the exchange rate updated itself.



I've found the limited amount I've seen of Belgium trains a lot more interesting than the Netherlands - NS seems to have done a good job at replacing many of the older (but - to me - interesting) trains with newer ones. And there are very few loco hauled services left apart from the top and tailed trains using the high speed lines, which themselves won't be around for much longer I think. (I'm also probably a bit biassed because I've had quite a few trips to the Netherlands and I've spent very little time in Belgium so it has much more novelty value).

Does the old hourly loco-hauled Brussels to Amsterdam, calling at principal stations, still exist? xx18 from Brussels, xx03 2h45mins later at Amsterdam I think. Holds a special place for me as it was the second train (after Eurostar) that I used when I travelled round that part of the continent (as far as Austria and Switzerland) in 2009. The 1418 from Brussels, arr. Amsterdam 1703 I think, connecting (well) off the 1057 ex-St Pancras.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can see loco hauled "MUs" on the Zuerich S Bahn. And our Voyagers almost took that approach. I wonder can two 68+Mk5a sets be coupled like that?

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany excels in the growth of some plant with similar spreading characteristics, but not sure what it is. Something large that looks a bit exotic, as if it were more suited to a warmer climate than that of Germany, and whatever it is, I've seen quite a lot on the continent, but not here. No visible flowers, a woody stem, and narrow, oval-shaped leaves I think? (sorry for vagueness).

That is due to the warmth of the German people.
Best wishes from Germany.
Martin

 

[AdamWW]

Does the old hourly loco-hauled Brussels to Amsterdam, calling at principal stations, still exist? xx18 from Brussels, xx03 2h45mins later at Amsterdam I think. Holds a special place for me as it was the second train (after Eurostar) that I used when I travelled round that part of the continent (as far as Austria and Switzerland) in 2009. The 1418 from Brussels, arr. Amsterdam 1703 I think, connecting (well) off the 1057 ex-St Pancras.

Yes and no. It still runs but it's a bit faster and the "principal stations" are no longer the same as it now uses the high speed lines. I believe the coaching stock is the same, but the push-pull cab no longer used as it isn't compatible with the HSL signalling - instead there's a locomotive at each end. Though despite using the high speed lines it only gets up to 100 mph.

But I think it's supposed to be replaced with EMUs soon which will be able to go a bit faster on the high speed lines.

There's quite an interesting bit north of Breda where having had left hand running in Belgium, after Breda it switches to right hand running as is the norm in the Netherland, then after running parallel to it for a while it rejoins the high speed line which at this point is still on left hand running.

Of course now you can get the Eurostar all the way to Amsterdam, which is quite an interesting journey as in Belgium and the Netherlands despite using high speed lines when it can, there's plenty of running on conventional lines too with lots of other trains to see, unlike when on the high speed lines.

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You can see loco hauled "MUs" on the Zuerich S Bahn. And our Voyagers almost took that approach. I wonder can two 68+Mk5a sets be coupled like that?

I think for it to be really effective you want automatic couplers on the outer end of the locomotive and on the DVTs. Which I think I saw in Belgium a few years ago but might have imagined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think for it to be really effective you want automatic couplers on the outer end of the locomotive and on the DVTs. Which I think I saw in Belgium a few years ago but might have imagined.

The Zuerich ones do. In Germany only multiple units have autocouplers, but having shunters around to couple and uncouple hauled stock is still not that unusual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

Germany also was good at keeping a relatively large number of small branch lines open, sometimes run by a local operator. Bad Krozingen to Münstertal, just south of Freiburg for example. A charming single line branch, run (when I visited in 1987 and later 2009) with single-car DMUs and serving one medium-sized (Staufen) and one small town (Münstertal itself). I suspect there would be zero chance of such a branch surviving Beeching in the UK.

East Germany didn't have a Beeching, but those lines are slowly closing, a bit like UK rural bus services, where the Bundesland doesn't fund a service - "nichts bestellt" (nothing ordered) is the fatal phrase.

There are UK lines like those, though. I think the Marston Vale very much has that sort of feel. Most of them, where they do exist, are Beeching survivors - e.g. the Marston Vale was to have closed but United Counties refused to operate a replacement bus service for it which was a condition of its closure. St Albans would probably have that feel had it not been electrified. Lymington to Yarmouth similarly. These use 4-car EMUs as it's easier, but don't even remotely justify that capacity, but use of a 4-car EMU rather than a 153 or 230 affects the "feel".

 

[AlexNL]

Which I think I saw in Belgium a few years ago but might have imagined.

You are correct, the M6 and M7 end vehicles have automatic couplers (of the GF type) and NMBS have a fleet of electric locomotives (named HLE 19) which are also fitted with those couplers.

 

[AdamWW]

You are correct, the M6 and M7 end vehicles have automatic couplers (of the GF type) and NMBS have a fleet of electric locomotives (named HLE 19) which are also fitted with those couplers.

Are they still running them? I don't think I saw any in my recent brief trips to Belgium but I thought I saw a train with an engine in the middle on a web site showing formations.

 

[AlexNL]

Yes, those still run. But there's only a few routes where NMBS need the capability to split/join trains en route, I believe that's on trains from Brussels to Knokke and Blankenberge.

On other routes NMBS will just run long formation of up to 10 dostos.

 

[Gostav]

On Japan Railways l think this is the fastest reversal as a EMU.

 

[DanielB]

And if I've understood correctly, an e-ticket is the same price as using the OV-Chipkaart but with the addition of allowing breaks of journey, whereas with the Chipkaart it will generally count as separate journeys and thus cost more.

Correct, albeit only full fare. There are discounted e-tickets available, but those are only valid when accompanied by someone with a subscription who can take up to three people with them at 40% discount.

With an OV-chipcard breaking the journey will only cost more when you break it for more than 35 minutes.

NS used to have some short loco hauled double deck push pull trains that were treated as EMUs and sometimes worked in multiple, giving the interesting sight of trains with one or even two locomotives in the middle. They still seem to have some of the stock though, with the loco replaced with a three bogie power unit with a similar height to the coaches but with only one level of seating to allow for the power equipment.

Yes, the units with power car (which already existed since 1996) were overhauled and converted into the current DDZ fleet. Some of the carriages from the loco hauled sets where utilised to lengthen some of the 50 4-car units to 6-car units. The remainder of the fleet has temporary been in use as 3-car loco hauled sets (with some Bv cars converted to ABv cars as there weren't enough cars with first class section left). But those have now all been scrapped.

 

[AdamWW]

Correct, albeit only full fare. There are discounted e-tickets available, but those are only valid when accompanied by someone with a subscription who can take up to three people with them at 40% discount.

With an OV-chipcard breaking the journey will only cost more when you break it for more than 35 minutes.

Yes, the units with power car (which already existed since 1996) were overhauled and converted into the current DDZ fleet. Some of the carriages from the loco hauled sets where utilised to lengthen some of the 50 4-car units to 6-car units. The remainder of the fleet has temporary been in use as 3-car loco hauled sets (with some Bv cars converted to ABv cars as there weren't enough cars with first class section left). But those have now all been scrapped.

Thanks. Which has reminded me...I may have misunderstood but it looks as if SNCB is buying EMU power cars to work in a similar way with a set of coaches and a push-pull driving car to provide more flexibility than a regular EMU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Which has reminded me...I may have misunderstood but it looks as if SNCB is buying EMU power cars to work in a similar way with a set of coaches and a push-pull driving car to provide more flexibility than a regular EMU.

The Swiss "Domino" sets are like that. They do make sense if you have a load of suitable coaches spare - BR never did (being early adopters of multiple units) which is why they probably never looked at this approach. In Switzerland they used to work with EW I/II coaches in the middle, since replaced with new low-floor coaches. Though on the Vevey-Puidoux "Train des Vignes" they worked without intermediates and went like an absolute rocket!

Edit: I believe all work with at least one low floor trailer now so as to meet accessiblity requirements.

Edit edit: though weren't there those "tadpole" DEMUs which were a pair of Hastings DEMU coaches with a Mk1 hauled coach in the middle?

 

[DanielB]

Don't know how exactly NMBS is planning to use it's M7 stock, but the Dutch DDAR never was that flexible as the Swiss domino sets seem to be.
A "treinstam", which is the Dutch name for sets like the former DDAR (now DDZ) and actually also VIRM, has the flexibility to be able to relatively easily swap a carriage.
However, this has rarely been used to lengthen or shorten trains as there are no spare cars. Swapping cars was mostly used in the past to replace cars that were damaged by accidents or fire. However it seems to have been a bit of an headache when revisions started, as there were VIRM-2/3 sets around with a VIRM-1 cab car for example.

 

[43096]

Edit edit: though weren't there those "tadpole" DEMUs which were a pair of Hastings DEMU coaches with a Mk1 hauled coach in the middle?

The Tadpoles had the driving trailers from disbanded 2-EPB EMUs in the middle.