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Can anyone tell me what route the Eurostars used before HS1 phase 2 and before HS1 phase 1 was completed? I can find photos of the trains going via Olympia, although as far as I can remember the trains didn't run to Waterloo at all when HS1 phase 2 was complete. There is curve of track just before St Pancras coming off HS1, so would that be where the trains joined HS1 when they went via Olympia?
I agree with Peter that the Olympia route was only used for ECS between Waterloo and North Pole Depot only
HS1 phase 1 Eurostars ran from Waterloo, Linford Street, Bromley South, Fawkham Jn (over part of former Gravesend West line) to Springhead Jn then HS1.
when HS1 was fully open then trains ran to/from St. Pancras accordingly Waterloo International plus North Pole Depot was closed.
Just to add further detail, before HS1 Phase 1 was opened, the trains ran from Ashford to Bromley South via Tonbridge (mostly), or via Maidstone East and Swanley (a small number of services). From Bromley South trains could be routed via Herne Hill or Catford.
Many a memory of quaffing pints in the beer garden at The Falcon in Clapham and seeing the occasional Eurostar set trundle over the viaduct above! That must be nigh on 20 years ago now
There have been a range of posts on here over time regarding the Eurostar routes from Waterloo through Kent before HS1 opened. Broadly they used much the same options as the old boat trains had long used, even via Bat & Ball on occasion, both scheduled and being dynamically sent different ways if needed, and crews knew all the options.
There were "Eurostar Link" services via Olympia, which were operations to make up for abandoning direct Channel Tunnel services from elsewhere. They were HSTs, running from points like Edinburgh, Manchester and Cardiff direct to Waterloo, for transfer to mainstream Eurostar. They were hardly used, and given up after a few years. You could only use them with Eurostar tickets, and seemed operated under contract to Eurostar by Cross Country, whose normal liveried fleet the trains were taken from.
Did the Eurostar trains ever operate via Edenbridge and Redhill and East Croydon at any point? I know it was not a booked route but i am wondering if it ever happened during disruptions or engineering works?
Did the Eurostar trains ever operate via Edenbridge and Redhill and East Croydon at any point? I know it was not a booked route but i am wondering if it ever happened during disruptions or engineering works?
I believe not, it was anticipated they should , as this was one of the boat train diversion routes but at a late stage in the project it was discovered that there were loading gauge issues for the Eurostar sets at East Croydon which led to them being banned.
Meanwhile the Class 92 locomotives, built specially for Channel Tunnel freight services, and for which the Redhill to Tonbridge line was specifically electrified as it avoids the heavy gradients of the Sevenoaks route, were at an even later stage discovered to be electrically incompatible with the signalling at Croydon as well, so the same happened. The only international services to use the line have thus been freight services hauled by diesels, and the electrification was wasted for its original purpose.
Just to add further detail, before HS1 Phase 1 was opened, the trains ran from Ashford to Bromley South via Tonbridge (mostly), or via Maidstone East and Swanley (a small number of services). From Bromley South trains could be routed via Herne Hill or Catford.
Via Bat and Ball (mentioned also by Taunton) was a booked route for a couple of evening Down trains because of pathing issues through Knockholt. I thought Maidstone was diversions only, but may well be wrong.
I did one of each. Maidstone was August 2003, weekday mid-morning. We ran from Waterloo to Swanley Junction, where there was a signal stop of 10 minutes or more, which I suspected was a discussion about what routes the driver signed. Onwards, I recall grinding round the curves at Maidstone East at about 30 mph, then we got behind a lorry shuttle climbing slowly out of the Tunnel, and despite an uninterrupted run across France were an hour late into Paris.
Bat & Ball (in old Southern style, named after an adjacent pub, recently closed) is not as silly a routing as might be first suspected, notwithstanding that at one moment on this line trains towards the Tunnel are running due west. The main line from Orpington to Sevenoaks is just double track, steeply graded, has three intermediate local stations, and the long tunnel under the North Downs, and can be completely full, so sending trains round through Otford and then back through Bat & Ball is not that impractical. Old boat trains occasionally did the same. The two routes are still pretty close at Otford, I've wondered if you can see trains from one on the other there in wintertime when the leaves are off the trees.
I did one of each. Maidstone was August 2003, weekday mid-morning. We ran from Waterloo to Swanley Junction, where there was a signal stop of 10 minutes or more, which I suspected was a discussion about what routes the driver signed. Onwards, I recall grinding round the curves at Maidstone East at about 30 mph, then we got behind a lorry shuttle climbing slowly out of the Tunnel, and despite an uninterrupted run across France were an hour late into Paris.
Bat & Ball (in old Southern style, named after an adjacent pub, recently closed) is not as silly a routing as might be first suspected, notwithstanding that at one moment on this line trains towards the Tunnel are running due west. The main line from Orpington to Sevenoaks is just double track, steeply graded, has three intermediate local stations, and the long tunnel under the North Downs, and can be completely full, so sending trains round through Otford and then back through Bat & Ball is not that impractical. Old boat trains occasionally did the same. The two routes are still pretty close at Otford, I've wondered if you can see trains from one on the other there in wintertime when the leaves are off the trees.
As I think I have posted elsewhere - at least one train did run to Olympia in "normal" passenger service. This was EST9132, the 12.27 Waterloo - Brussels on 30/07/2001 which was sent in service to Olympia to turn the set as, IIRC, the air conditioning in what would otherwise have been the leading cab had failed. I'm sure it wasn't the only one in all the years of working into Waterloo, but it was the only one that I happened to be on! Eventual arrival in Brussels was 1hr 44mins late, much of which was caused by a points failure at Latchmere Junction trapping us up the branch.
As I think I have posted elsewhere - at least one train did run to Olympia in "normal" passenger service. This was EST9132, the 12.27 Waterloo - Brussels on 30/07/2001 which was sent in service to Olympia to turn the set as, IIRC, the air conditioning in what would otherwise have been the leading cab had failed. I'm sure it wasn't the only one in all the years of working into Waterloo, but it was the only one that I happened to be on! Eventual arrival in Brussels was 1hr 44mins late, much of which was caused by a points failure at Latchmere Junction trapping us up the branch.
They're different chords accessed by the same jn. Nothing is regularly booked to use either of the Chords from Camden Road East Jn to HS1 or St Pancras International platforms 5-10, AFAIK.
Bat & Ball (in old Southern style, named after an adjacent pub, recently closed) is not as silly a routing as might be first suspected, notwithstanding that at one moment on this line trains towards the Tunnel are running due west. The main line from Orpington to Sevenoaks is just double track, steeply graded, has three intermediate local stations, and the long tunnel under the North Downs, and can be completely full, so sending trains round through Otford and then back through Bat & Ball is not that impractical.
The time penalty in the Down direction is only about 5min IIRC. It's not so convenient going Up because of the flat junction at Sevenoaks, but fortunately London-bound Eurostars in the morning peak were (and are) uncommon.
No idea whether there was somewhere at the Brussels end where they could easily turn a set (as in sonewhere that Eurostars were cleared for). If not - they presumably had to repeat the operation on the way back (once the aircon problem had been fixed)
Is there a "wrong way round" for 373s? With first class being in the middle, surely it wouldn't matter from a passenger perspective?
Edit- if you just mean from the point of view of having a defective cab, would they not take the set out of service as soon as possible? Presumably each set will only make a few trips a day anyway.
No idea whether there was somewhere at the Brussels end where they could easily turn a set (as in sonewhere that Eurostars were cleared for). If not - they presumably had to repeat the operation on the way back (once the aircon problem had been fixed)
I suspect empty to depot (if need be round the ring line through the W suburbs - which I have used on an ICE) and a set swap or step-up. By the time it got to Brussels it would have been at least 1800 and too late to form the back working.
There was a contingency plan to divert E* into Kensington Olympia even in my day on North London Railways , in the event of Waterloo International being unavailable for any reason.
Lo and behold it happened for one afternoon. For one train.
So shoals of Black cabs were summoned for hire purposes (not free) , and we scrambled a 313 for a couple of extra trips to Clapham.
I believe not, it was anticipated they should , as this was one of the boat train diversion routes but at a late stage in the project it was discovered that there were loading gauge issues for the Eurostar sets at East Croydon which led to them being banned.
Meanwhile the Class 92 locomotives, built specially for Channel Tunnel freight services, and for which the Redhill to Tonbridge line was specifically electrified as it avoids the heavy gradients of the Sevenoaks route, were at an even later stage discovered to be electrically incompatible with the signalling at Croydon as well, so the same happened. The only international services to use the line have thus been freight services hauled by diesels, and the electrification was wasted for its original purpose.
Many thanks. That is interesting to hear. I am surprised that there was loading gauge issues at East Croydon station. This route and station has had such a wide variety of stock over the years but i suppose the 373s probably had a larger loading gauge than most of our other trains.
So if i am understanding correctly between the Channel Tunnel and the Petts Wood or St Mary Cray area there were just three routes permitted:
• via Ashford - Maidstone East - Swanley
• via Ashford - Tonbridge - Sevenoaks - Swanley
• via Ashford - Tonbridge - Sevenoaks - Orpington
So between the Petts Wood and St Mary Cray area and London Waterloo there are six routes but were all of them permitted to be used by Eurostar if necessary?
• via Grove Park - Lewisham - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Catford - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Catford Bridge - Lewisham - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Sydenham Hill - Herne Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Birkbeck - Crystal Palace - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Birkbeck - Crystal Palace - Balham - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo
It would be interesting to know whether all six of these were used at some point?
Also what is that bit of track just East of Farningham Road that connects on to the line just east of Ebbsfleet on the HS1 line? Was this originally intended to allow Eurostar trains to divert to London Waterloo if Kings Cross St Pancras was closed?
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There was a contingency plan to divert E* into Kensington Olympia even in my day on North London Railways , in the event of Waterloo International being unavailable for any reason.
Lo and behold it happened for one afternoon. For one train.
So shoals of Black cabs were summoned for hire purposes (not free) , and we scrambled a 313 for a couple of extra trips to Clapham.
How did that work? I thought both of the platforms at Kensington Olympia are far too short for the 373s to fit in? I do not think the 373s have SDO on them? Perhaps local door only but thinking about it i am not sure that the 373s even have the ability for the Guard to open the local door?
Out of interest did the Eurostar ever terminate at or call additionally at any other Southeastern stations in Kent or South London during disruption? It would be interesting to know if that ever happened?
Also was London Victoria ever used as an alternative when London Waterloo was unavailable? I am surprised they chose Kensington Olympia as surely London Victoria would be a much better diversion destination?
The Channel Tunnel opened in 1994, but until 2003 the only routes to it from London were traditional ones. The line from Fawkham Junction to Southfleet Junction opened (*) in 2003, as did HS1 on to the tunnel. The line from St Pancras to Southfleet Junction only opened in 2007, but the Fawkham Junction-Southfleet Junction line closed soon after.
* - Actually, most of it was the reopening of the old LCDR Gravesend West Branch.
As I think I have posted elsewhere - at least one train did run to Olympia in "normal" passenger service. This was EST9132, the 12.27 Waterloo - Brussels on 30/07/2001 which was sent in service to Olympia to turn the set as, IIRC, the air conditioning in what would otherwise have been the leading cab had failed. I'm sure it wasn't the only one in all the years of working into Waterloo, but it was the only one that I happened to be on! Eventual arrival in Brussels was 1hr 44mins late, much of which was caused by a points failure at Latchmere Junction trapping us up the branch.
I can confirm that this was not a unique diversion. On Friday 07/02/2003 I travelled in 9O50 1827 Waterloo - Paris Nord which reversed in one of the centre roads at Kensington Olympia. This was due to a prior departure suffering a brake fault on Nine Elms flyover, which if I recall correctly, was stuck there for several hours before being rescued.
Diversions via Bat & Ball or Maidstone East and/or Catford were regularly encountered when returning home from the continent on Sunday evenings. Via Orpington & Herne Hill seemed to be the rarest route on Sundays!
Also was London Victoria ever used as an alternative when London Waterloo was unavailable? I am surprised they chose Kensington Olympia as surely London Victoria would be a much better diversion destination?
A 373 would not fit in the platforms at Victoria, probably not even in platform 2 without fouling a lot of the throat area, plus it would be difficult to secure a sterile area for the customs and security measures.
So if i am understanding correctly between the Channel Tunnel and the Petts Wood or St Mary Cray area there were just three routes permitted:
• via Ashford - Maidstone East - Swanley
• via Ashford - Tonbridge - Sevenoaks - Swanley
• via Ashford - Tonbridge - Sevenoaks - Orpington
So between the Petts Wood and St Mary Cray area and London Waterloo there are six routes but were all of them permitted to be used by Eurostar if necessary?
• via Grove Park - Lewisham - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Catford - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Catford Bridge - Lewisham - Denmark Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Sydenham Hill - Herne Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Birkbeck - Crystal Palace - Tulse Hill - Herne Hill - Wandsworth Road - London Waterloo
• via Bromley South - Beckenham Junction - Birkbeck - Crystal Palace - Balham - Clapham Junction - London Waterloo
It would be interesting to know whether all six of these were used at some point?
The only two routes used inwards to Waterloo were the main line through Herne Hill and the Catford Loop through Peckham. The junction at Shortlands was specifically rebuilt for Eurostar to allow high speed divergences to either route. Everything passed through Bromley South. South Eastern fast trains still use both options as necessary, the local timetables on these lines still seem arranged so if a fast is just behind a stopper on one of the routes, it can take the other and overtake. I used to visit Ravensbourne (ah ... ... never mind) on the Catford Loop in the late 1980s, a station doubly surprising, firstly for having such a rural-old world feeling in London (apparently since destroyed by fire and rebuilt), and secondly for the complete main line operation passing through, sometimes fasts on a 2-3 minute headway in both directions.
Shortlands was rebuilt as a result of HS1 phase 1, which resulted in the Eurostar services always coming from the Swanley rather than Orpington direction When approaching Bromley South.
Shortlands was rebuilt as a result of HS1 phase 1, which resulted in the Eurostar services always coming from the Swanley rather than Orpington direction When approaching Bromley South.
Sorry dont think thats right Shortlands was rebuilt as part of the original Channel Tunnel enhancements to allow a direct connection from the Bromley South Lines to the Fast Lines of the SEML. The route to Swanley for the route via Maidstone East and Fawkenham Junction for HS1 phase 1 was always the straight ahead route at line speed. The now disused route via Fawkenham to HS1 was as far as Southfleet the route of the old Gravesend West Branch.
The shortlands work was needed as the the previous connection from the Bromley South Lines was a 30 mph junction to the slow lines plus a 40mph cross to the fast lines. The length of time it would have taken for a 16 coach train to traverse the layout was thought to be unacceptable for capacity reasons.
Sorry dont think thats right Shortlands was rebuilt as part of the original Channel Tunnel enhancements to allow a direct connection from the Bromley South Lines to the Fast Lines of the SEML. The route to Swanley for the route via Maidstone East and Fawkenham Junction for HS1 phase 1 was always the straight ahead route at line speed. The now disused route via Fawkenham to HS1 was as far as Southfleet the route of the old Gravesend West Branch.
The shortlands work was needed as the the previous connection from the Bromley South Lines was a 30 mph junction to the slow lines plus a 40mph cross to the fast lines. The length of time it would have taken for a 16 coach train to traverse the layout was thought to be unacceptable for capacity reasons.
The Transport and Work Order for the Shortlands Junction rebuild was made in June 2001, and it was rebuilt after that. @Nicholas Lewis will settle the matter!
... never mind) on the Catford Loop in the late 1980s, a station doubly surprising, firstly for having such a rural-old world feeling in London (apparently since destroyed by fire and rebuilt), and secondly for the complete main line operation passing through, sometimes fasts on a 2-3 minute headway in both directions.