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Apart from Luxembourg, Belgium probably has the best value single fares in an otherwise high cost of living country, certainly in western/northern Europe. Excluding the airport surcharge, their maximum single fare is 21.80 EUR and you can get 10 any distance singles for 84 EUR.
And return fares for the price of a single at weekends (including Friday evenings). The airport surcharge is pretty steep though.
Some interesting trains too - plenty of loco hauled (albeit push pull) trains, rather nice double decker coaches with big windows and EMUs with a most unusual design for corridor connections through intermediate cab ends.
I've visited briefly and would rather like to spend some more time travelling on trains there.
Was there access between the single and double deck coaches? The ones I've seen in Switzerland had high level corridor connections (which is a design I like) so would need some kind of transition coach to provide access into single deck coaches.
I’ve just seen an IC headed for Interlaken Ost with 8 DD and 5 single deck coaches (all ably powered by a single 460) and indeed there was no gangway connection between the two types.
Personally I much prefer the German ICE appoach over the French model of fully reserved and demand priced TGVs (never mind the fact that they are now split into regular and "budget" services, the latter having compulsory check-in times and luggage charges etc. in a creditable attempt to erode the advantages of trains over air travel).
Same here. I consider Ouigo a joke and the style of operation of TGV services counterproductive on some classic lines: for instance, between Rennes and Brest or Bordeaux and Hendaye, TGVs and TER alternate, but one is compulsory reservation, the other is not, and they have non-compatible ticketing. As a result, you have two separate offers with, accordingly, an unattractive and infrequent timetable, whereas the offer would be very attractive if they were integrated.
I think the French are extremely good at shooting themselves in the foot.
I’ve just seen an IC headed for Interlaken Ost with 8 DD and 5 single deck coaches (all ably powered by a single 460) and indeed there was no gangway connection between the two types.
I did see a combination like that in Zurich(?) some years ago but I wasn't sure if it was in service like that or not.
I do like high gangway connection coaches - it somehow seems neater as well as it being more convenient not having to go up and down steps constantly to walk down a train. But gangway connections are also quite useful (and I also enjoy the novelty of being able to walk from one type of coach into the other - especially impressive on the "Alex" trains to/from Munich where you can have a non air conditioned, manual door, compartment coach coupled to an extremely modern looking double decker.)
It's fairly standard practice, the additional couple of coaches plus driving trailer sets are treated as multiple units and put on the end with the gangway closed. They don't remove the loco or existing driving trailer to accommodate them.
I do like high gangway connection coaches - it somehow seems neater as well as it being more convenient not having to go up and down steps constantly to walk down a train. But gangway connections are also quite useful (and I also enjoy the novelty of being able to walk from one type of coach into the other - especially impressive on the "Alex" trains to/from Munich where you can have a non air conditioned, manual door, compartment coach coupled to an extremely modern looking double decker.)
It's an interesting idea, but it gains nothing with those coaches as the bottom deck is only about the half-coach between the doors plus the bogs - they make incredibly inefficient use of space for a hauled coach. I personally don't like them, the windows are small, the seats too narrow (about 3+2 width) and the legroom is poor, plus luggage space is lacking. The regional FLIRTs and refurbished DOMINO EMUs are nice, but as far as IC goes SBB hasn't built anything decent since the standard EW IV hauled coach, and hadn't built much good before that either - the EW I/II are just too small and a waste of the large loading gauge, for instance, and were extremely Spartan.
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Same here. I consider Ouigo a joke and the style of operation of TGV services counterproductive on some classic lines: for instance, between Rennes and Brest or Bordeaux and Hendaye, TGVs and TER alternate, but one is compulsory reservation, the other is not, and they have non-compatible ticketing. As a result, you have two separate offers with, accordingly, an unattractive and infrequent timetable, whereas the offer would be very attractive if they were integrated.
I think the French are extremely good at shooting themselves in the foot.
Ouigo I can see the sense in, in the UK we have Lumo after all which is similar, but its deliberate disintegration is unnecessary, as are the silly "airline like" features intended to make it worse like check-in and luggage limits. Lumo manages to do the same thing without any of that nonsense. But overall, a Standard only budget high speed train I have no issue with, that, Lumo and LNR are just a variation on a theme.
In the situation you mention above, it'd not be hard to have an unreserved coach for that section on which TER tickets could be accepted. Until DB had a big falling out with them, Thalys had an unreserved coach for domestic German journeys, it was in the planners as a separate train, either a D or a RE, I forget.
It's an interesting idea, but it gains nothing with those coaches as the bottom deck is only about the half-coach between the doors plus the bogs - they make incredibly inefficient use of space for a hauled coach.
That’s not true. An IC2000 2nd class coach has 126 seats, so about 50% more than a comparable single-deck coach. That is extremely worthwhile when, as is the case in Switzerland, train-length is maxed out and capacity not enough.
I understand that you don’t like them, but there really is no alternative. As it is, in the peak, these trains are still overcrowded.
Ouigo I can see the sense in, in the UK we have Lumo after all which is similar, but its deliberate disintegration is unnecessary, as are the silly "airline like" features intended to make it worse like check-in and luggage limits. Lumo manages to do the same thing without any of that nonsense. But overall, a Standard only budget high speed train I have no issue with, that, Lumo and LNR are just a variation on a theme.
Not the same thing at all. Lumo is real competition, Ouigo is just an SNCF-subsidiary pretending to be competition, but in reality really an abuse of monopoly power.
That’s not true. An IC2000 2nd class coach has 126 seats, so about 50% more than a comparable single-deck coach. That is extremely worthwhile when, as is the case in Switzerland, train-length is maxed out and capacity not enough.
I understand that you don’t like them, but there really is no alternative.
I thought the suggestion was that the "unconventional" (high level gangway) design reduced capacity compared to a more conventional double decker coach (though it's not clear to me why that should be)
Not the same thing at all. Lumo is real competition, Ouigo is just an SNCF-subsidiary pretending to be competition, but in reality really an abuse of monopoly power.
And putting aside the fact that Ouigo is also run by SNCF, I thought (happy to be corrected) that the Ouigo services generally replaced conventional trains in the timetable rather than being additional to them. Also I believe that Ouigo has an entirely separate (on-line) ticket system to the rest of SNCF, whereas Lumo is part of the National Rail ticket system - even if most passengers are probably going to be on Lumo specific advances they can still buy them from the same place as other tickets, and non operator specific tickets can be used on Lumo (though they seems to be immune from the rule that all operators should call advance tickets just that, with their "LumoFixed" tickets that remind me of the days when every operator had its own silly name for advance tickets).
(Amusingly, the LNER travel planner's system of showing an operator logo against services means that Lumo services are nicely shown up with a logo even more prominent than the LNER one).
I thought the suggestion was that the "unconventional" (high level gangway) design reduced capacity compared to a more conventional double decker coach (though it's not clear to me why that should be)
But I agree with you, there is no reduced capacity. A Stadler KISS has less seats. OTOH, once you are on the upper deck, much easier to move around and also to have a trolley circulating (though I am not sure that SBB still does that). They also have a much-more „long-distance feel“ than normal DD stock to me.
But I agree with you, there is no reduced capacity. A Stadler KISS has less seats. OTOH, once you are on the upper deck, much easier to move around and also to have a trolley circulating (though I am not sure that SBB still does that). They also have a much-more „long-distance feel“ than normal DD stock to me.
For what it's worth I liked them on the couple of journeys I've done on them (chose them for part of a journey rather than ICE all the way).
Though DB and Belgian IC double decker coaches have also felt like "proper" long distance ones despite having conventional height gangways.
I'm not sure comparing with a EMU is appropriate though as they will need space to stuff equipment in. (I seem to recall the KISS I went on a few years ago having an area which just had a corridor and the rest was taken up by some part of the workings).
For what it's worth I liked them on the couple of journeys I've done on them (chose them for part of a journey rather than ICE all the way).
Though DB and Belgian IC double decker coaches have also felt like "proper" long distance ones despite having conventional height gangways.
As far as double deck coaches go the best I've used myself are the recent DB regional ones, which are similar to the IC2. DB's have always had bigger windows. SBB's decision to have very small ones is bizarre given the scenic nature of their country - even the Giruno has very small windows compared with most Stadler single deck kit.
As far as double deck coaches go the best I've used myself are the recent DB regional ones, which are similar to the IC2. DB's have always had bigger windows. SBB's decision to have very small ones is bizarre given the scenic nature of their country - even the Giruno has very small windows compared with most Stadler single deck kit.
The new (Skoda?) DD coaches on the Munich-Nurnburg Express seem to have a somewhat smaller double deck section than the usual regional ones - I think because the bogies are further inboard. I don't know if they are designed for higher speeds than usual regional stock, and if so that's why they have that arrangement.
The smallest windows I've come across on DD coaches are in the Netherlands, though I never noticed until I did a trip where I got to go on Dutch and other countries DD coaches in reasonably close succession. While they seem to have a rather different design to other countries (with the lower deck sides angling inwards towards the bottom) which is maybe due to a more restriced loading gauge, I don't know if that fully explains the lack of window.
The smallest windows I've come across on DD coaches are in the Netherlands, though I never noticed until I did a trip where I got to go on Dutch and other countries DD coaches in reasonably close succession. While they seem to have a rather different design to other countries (with the lower deck sides angling inwards towards the bottom) which is maybe due to a more restriced loading gauge, I don't know if that fully explains the lack of window.
Probably worth mentioning that double-deck stock is almost always outside UIC gauge and usually gauge-restricted, not able to run on many routes. Also that the Swiss loading gauge is more restricted than the German one.
I would assume the loading gauge does not change much anyway anymore, because train builders build what can run in most places and the IC2 sets were meant to run to Zurich. There might be more route restrictions though.
Later in the day today I noticed something else that the SBB was doing well. I realised that there were many school groups on the move, all teenagers. What it was all about I don’t know but departure indicators were showing where groups with reservations should stand on the platform for each train concerned, and it could be why DD IC trains had extra single deck coaches.
In addition to all of this, as I was arriving at Zurich HB just now an Re 4/4 II was departing with a rake of Bpm-type ‘fresh air’ coaches full of these teenage groups. Good to see the SBB could run such an extra train especially in the middle of the evening peak.
Later in the day today I noticed something else that the SBB was doing well. I realised that there were many school groups on the move, all teenagers. What it was all about I don’t know but departure indicators were showing where groups with reservations should stand on the platform for each train concerned
Yep. SBB mostly don't do reservations, but they are mandatory for groups of 12 or larger and an area of the train is marked out - any train, even a local stopper. It's pretty much always done at one end so it's Sector A.
The Swiss are also good at industrial relations. When was the last time trains in Switzerland were affected by industrial action, apart from those caused by foreign train companies?
Finland is very good at maintaining affordable and comfortable intercity services, but very poor at offering local or regional passenger rail outside the Helsinki area. It's also very bad at making it possible for new entrants. Politically, few in Finland want to see VR lose its monopoly. VR has actively scrapped older surplus rolling stock to make it harder for new entrants to secure vehicles with the unusual Finnish track and loading gauge.
Across the Gulf of Bothnia, Sweden is very good at maintaining low access charges and good conditions for new passenger and freight operators. Although I don't have the figures, I believe it's one of the cheapest countries per km and most receptive environments in which new operators (eg Snälltåget, MTRX, Flixtrain) can enter the market and compete with the state-owned incumbent.
Depending on whether you thinking this is a good thing or not, Sweden is very good at the digitalisation of passenger rail: there are no more ticket offices and almost everyone buys tickets digitally through apps or websites. It is consequently very bad at making the rail system accessible for foreigners, refugees or anyone without a smartphone or credit/debit card.
VR's board have been very political for many years, hence the rise of OnniBus (ex-VR managers). The scrapping of old trains has now stopped (ex-single deck IC carriages and the Sm1/Sm2 units) so that other passenger operators can obtain cheap Finnish gauge stock. I understand the OnniBus has obtained some Sm2's and is planning Turku-Uusikaupunki in 2023 ... though news has been sparse. Freight is open fully now with FenniaRail and OpeRail running. There's also a major digitalisation project with KoKoHa (Kotka-Kouvola-Hamina) ongoing -- hopefully going to contribute to that in the coming years
While they seem to have a rather different design to other countries (with the lower deck sides angling inwards towards the bottom) which is maybe due to a more restriced loading gauge, I don't know if that fully explains the lack of window.
The Dutch loading gauge is not really more restrictive than elsewhere. Reason for the angled sides of VIRM is that they have been built to make maximum use of the available space within the loading gauge.
A VIRM is actually 240 mm wider than DDZ (which has a more conventional doubledecker design.
The Dutch loading gauge is not really more restrictive than elsewhere. Reason for the angled sides of VIRM is that they have been built to make maximum use of the available space within the loading gauge.
A VIRM is actually 240 mm wider than DDZ (which has a more conventional doubledecker design.
SNCB/Infrabel are quite good at maximizing the usage of the infrastructure. Two exemples :
1) while the station of Antwerp was being rebuilt, I réd an article in ”La vie du rail” explaining that the station of Lille Flandres was saturated. During those works, station Antwerp only had 3 tracks. Yet we managed to accept on those 3 tracks more trains than those serving Lille Flandres, everyday.
2) yesterday I red an article in "Rail Passion" explaining how badly the station of Lyon Part Dieu needed a 12th track to accommodate the some 480 trains serving this station daily. Brussels Central has 1200 trains per day on 6 tracks only, Brussels North on 12 tracks.
The enormous effort of completely renewing the signaling of the whole network in a 20 years time frame, installing ETCS everywhere and consolidating some 500 signaling cabins into only 10 computerized signaling centres must also be noted.
SNCB/Infrabel are quite good at maximizing the usage of the infrastructure. Two exemples :
1) while the station of Antwerp was being rebuilt, I réd an article in ”La vie du rail” explaining that the station of Lille Flandres was saturated. During those works, station Antwerp only had 3 tracks. Yet we managed to accept on those 3 tracks more trains than those serving Lille Flandres, everyday.
Just to add to my post yesterday about the groups of teenagers being transported by SBB, it seems that they were going to and from a national careers fair in Bern called Swiss Skills 2022. Right now in track 15 at Zurich HB is sitting 460 111 with an Extrazug to Bern formed of a set of IC DD coaches.
I agree about Belgium being the leader in low-fares, it's extremely good value. There's also the senior ticket, a flat €7,20 fare for people over 65 to go anywhere in the country.
From my travels I would say the UK's main strong point is the frequency of services. Even quite rural stations can get end up with trains every 15 minutes, though there are of course exceptions. Intercity frequencies are top of the pack as well.
Germany I think does S-Bahns very well, and also a consistent national brand in ICE, with their very nice train interiors.
1) while the station of Antwerp was being rebuilt, I réd an article in ”La vie du rail” explaining that the station of Lille Flandres was saturated. During those works, station Antwerp only had 3 tracks. Yet we managed to accept on those 3 tracks more trains than those serving Lille Flandres, everyday.
2) yesterday I red an article in "Rail Passion" explaining how badly the station of Lyon Part Dieu needed a 12th track to accommodate the some 480 trains serving this station daily. Brussels Central has 1200 trains per day on 6 tracks only, Brussels North on 12 tracks.
Everytime I read about the justification of the French (and Spanish) for certain investments that are „urgently needed because we have run out of capacity“, I have to ask myself: Have you guys forgotten how to run trains or are you just desperate to support your building industry? Shouldn’t you just do a short trip to the UK, the Netherlands, Switzerland or (obviously) Belgium to learn how it is done? Or indeed just ask your counterparts in the Ile-de-France, where there is some impressive capacity utilization as well?
That said, the numbers for Belgium you cite are truly impressive.
SBB isn't perfect, some parts of it have a very rough feel, and it can be expensive (the Halbtax works on the basis of "think of a fare, double it then sell a discount card to discount it back to reasonable levels"). However it does feel and operate like a solid, trustworthy piece of infrastructure, and just exudes operational competence.
100% agree. Competence, general ease of using the service, cleanliness.
Worst part is probably lack of disabled access on the older (but comfortable) stock.
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