Avanti M.D. quits.

[Falcon1200]

Totally incapable of answering the question about how long it will take to sort the issue and says its an industry wide problem with endemic shortage of train drivers.

Not sure anyone, even those within the industry never mind without, could answer that just now; It's a 'how long is a piece of string question'! But at least the issue has now been raised and discussed in Parliament.

 

[jfollows]

Labour got an urgent question in after PMQs about future of Avanti. Trudy Harrison deputised to answer says no decision yet taken but does then go onto to explain the issue with drivers not working rest days. Manchester is the priority service group to receive increased service levels but unable to say when that will happen.

The written version of the discussion won't be uploaded till tomorrow though but you can watch it here starts at 1238.

From https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...D-BF83-4C0B-BCA7-8C51F8CE8071/AvantiWestCoast

Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)

The inflammatory tone and language the outgoing Secretary of State used regarding the ongoing industrial relations dispute has been echoed by many operators, including Avanti. That is very much to be regretted, and I hope that new leadership changes this.

Ends up with wind-up from the government:

Trudy Harrison

This Government are absolutely backing the rail sector, with more than £90 billion being invested in the integrated rail service. Great British Railways will seek to address many of these challenges, not least the modernisation of the workforce, which is absolutely necessary. I have absolutely not condemned the workers for this situation, but the fact remains that workers have been willing to work on their rest days for something like 20 years and they are no longer willing to do so, certainly with Avanti. We need to find a solution to that challenge, working with the unions but also recruiting more drivers and a more diverse set of drivers, and ensuring that we have drivers who are trained to safely, affordably and reliably operate the train service we all want - particularly this Conservative Government.

 

[bramling]

Not sure anyone, even those within the industry never mind without, could answer that just now; It's a 'how long is a piece of string question'! But at least the issue has now been raised and discussed in Parliament.

At least things are now being discussed in a more mature way. Let’s hope the various departures we’ve seen recently (Whittingham, Johnson, Shapps) will open the doors to something better than the gutter politics / gutter management we’ve seen recently. Will believe it when I see it, though.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

From https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...D-BF83-4C0B-BCA7-8C51F8CE8071/AvantiWestCoast

Thanks for adding in link didn't realise they were as fast as that but probably automated these days with someone just sense checking it before its uploaded

Ends up with wind-up from the government:

I listened to her for an hour and have never heard her before and whilst that response was a bit of a wind up by and large she did a far better job than Shapps or Morton ever did in at least trying to respond to the issue. Given Anne-Marie Trevelyan has only been in post 18hrs she probably had her hands tied behind her back.

The positive you have to take from it is she is clear there aren't enough train drivers to run train services across the UK full stop and that needs sorting. Yes her government is part of the problem but maybe one good thing that comes from DfT having their sticky fingers all over everything is they see below the bonnet what actually happens to keep the show on the road. Lets hope she can persuade the new SoS that in short term reaching an accommodation with drivers is the best way to at least give a starting point to begin to sort the industry out rather than a spiral decline that this will lead to.

 

[ScottGallagher]

That transcript was pretty brutal and the fact a question was tabled shows the strength of feeling for the constituents on the line. Surely the message that renewing Avantis contract will be politically unwise even though nothing would change in the short term?

Surprised Tim Farron wasn't there to table a question though.

 

[Pinus contorta]

I just hope Ms Harrison won't get told off by the new incumbent for being conciliatory.

 

[JamieL]

Government response to Labour on Avanti in the Commons this afternoon. Reported on a few news feeds - below taken from the Guardian:

The government is considering withdrawing Avanti’s contract to run train services on the West Coast Mainline, as ministers insisted “all options” would remain on the table once the agreement ended.

Rail operator Avanti has run fewer than half of its normal services since 14 August and blamed the reduction on “unofficial strike action” by drivers.

Transport minister Trudy Harrison insisted restoring the service between London and Manchester to full strength was an “absolute priority” for the government.

In the Commons, she faced calls from Labour to strip Avanti of the contract when it expires in October.

The firm says it normally runs around 400 trains per week with drivers voluntarily working on their rest days – for extra pay – but that “dropped suddenly to fewer than 50”.

 

[jfollows]

Post #85 above points to last week's Railway Gazette article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/avanti-west-coast-managing-director-to-leave/62490.article ; registration required but it's free) which ties in with the October 16 date in the answers in the Commons today. It's when Avanti/First Trenitalia's Emergency Recovery Measures Agreement (ERMA) contract expires, having been extended once already by a further six months from earlier this year. The options appear to be not to renew the contract, to renew the contract for a short period (The RG suggests to December 2022 or March 2023) or to establish a long-term direct award agreement which replaces the previous franchise and could run for up to ten years. Given the tenor of the comments on all sides I'm thinking it highly unlikely that a long contract would be given to Avanti next month, so presumably the options are around another extension to the ERMA (so that they can sort themselves out and fix the problems etc. etc.) or to terminate all contracts (which would lead to a lot of work required by a lot of people in a short time).

I've no knowledge, but the easy option is to extend the status quo for a further few months, or has patience now run out and the "nuclear" option will be invoked?

Anyway, I reminded myself that October 16 is the key date next here.

I know I'm only restating things that have been said already, but I had to work quite hard to find them all and pull them together in my mind. I'd be happy and grateful for any corrections to this, of course!

EDIT For completeness, here's the text of the Railway Gazette article:

Avanti West Coast Managing Director to leave​

2 September 2022

UK: Phil Whittingham is to step down as Managing Director of Avanti West Coast with effect from September 15 ‘in order to pursue other executive leadership opportunities’, the West Coast Main Line inter-city passenger operator’s parent company First Trenitalia announced on September 2.
Whittingham joined Virgin Trains West Coast in August 1999, becoming Finance Director in January 2008 and Managing Director in January 2015. He remained in post when the Inter-City West Coast franchise was taken over by First Trenitalia and branded Avanti West Coast in December 2019.

Last month, Avanti West Coast was forced to introduce a significantly reduced service. Only four trains per hour are now operating out of London Euston to WCML destinations because of ongoing driver shortages, compared to a standard pattern of nine trains/h in the pre-pandemic timetable.
At the time Whittingham said the cuts were due to ‘the current industrial climate’ and added that a decision by drivers not to work on rest days was unofficial strike action by ASLEF members. This caused a strong reaction within the company, with even moderate drivers angered by the comment.
Other industry leaders have suggested to Rail Business UK that the choice of words was ‘unwise’ and even ‘inflammatory’.
Announcing Whittingham’s departure, First Rail Managing Director Steve Montgomery said ‘having led the team through the challenges presented by the pandemic over the last two years and into the recovery period, Phil leaves with the team ready for the challenges in delivering the future service requirements. I would like to thank Phil and wish him well in the future.’
The reduction in services and impending loss of the Managing Director is particularly challenging for the operator because the Emergency Recovery Measures Agreements contract under which it is currently operating expires on October 16.

The Department for Transport and First Trenitalia are currently involved in discussions over a direct award agreement which could run for up to 10 years. However, industry sources suggest that awarding such a contract might be perceived as a ‘reward for failure’, and an extension of the ERMA to December 2022 or March 2023 could be more likely. The operator would be expected to deliver significant improvements in the timetable by that time.
Sources within the government’s operator of last resort have confirmed to Rail Business UK that it has not been asked to do any work towards taking over the business.
For the immediate future, Steve Montgomery will provide ‘executive leadership support’ to Avanti West Coast, with briefings to staff indicating that he will be assisted by other members of FirstGroup’s executive team, including Managing Director for Non-Franchised Businesses Andy Mellors and First Rail Director of Consultancy, Planning & Performance Rebecca Holding.
Staff have also been told that Avanti’s Operations & Safety Director Gus Dunster is shortly to retire, and his position will be taken by Barry Milsom who is currently Train Service Delivery & Performance Director at GWR.

 

[scrapy]

You don't need to. You may for example have 3 different Driver's contracts, rates of pay and ts & cs nationally.

1 set for "Local" train drivers, eg Northern, parts of GWR, etc.

1 set for "Regional Express" train drivers, eg TPE, parts of EMR, etc.

1 set for "Intercity" train drivers, eg LNER, Avanti, parts of GWR, etc.

You also standardise Ts & Cs within each band above which always means some people gain and some people lose, so a combination of wage and terms changes together means it isn't as difficult as it sounds.

What about drivers who drive a mix of local and express work? If pay and terms are being rewritten why should a driver who works mainly stopping services for TPE between Manchester and Hudersfield be on more favorable terms and pay than one that does regional work for Northern such as Leeds to Nottingham?

Hopefully with GBR there will be more efficiency so a driver who currently drives a what's currently an Avanti service between Preston and Glasgow may be able to drive what's now a TPE service back. This would need more standardised rolling stock procurement in the future.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ends up with wind-up from the government:

Trudy Harrison

This Government are absolutely backing the rail sector, with more than £90 billion being invested in the integrated rail service. Great British Railways will seek to address many of these challenges, not least the modernisation of the workforce, which is absolutely necessary. I have absolutely not condemned the workers for this situation, but the fact remains that workers have been willing to work on their rest days for something like 20 years and they are no longer willing to do so, certainly with Avanti. We need to find a solution to that challenge, working with the unions but also recruiting more drivers and a more diverse set of drivers, and ensuring that we have drivers who are trained to safely, affordably and reliably operate the train service we all want - particularly this Conservative Government.

Whoever wrote that response for her needs a quick lesson in the current situation.

The positive you have to take from it is she is clear there aren't enough train drivers to run train services across the UK full stop and that needs sorting.

But as explained before, there are enough drivers. Just not enough with all the relevant competencies, because training has been hit so hard.

obviously there will need to be more drivers recruited to deal with natural turnover, and more still when Sundays are brought inside the week for everyone.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Post #85 above points to last week's Railway Gazette article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/avanti-west-coast-managing-director-to-leave/62490.article ; registration required but it's free) which ties in with the October 16 date in the answers in the Commons today. It's when Avanti/First Trenitalia's Emergency Recovery Measures Agreement (ERMA) contract expires, having been extended once already by a further six months from earlier this year. The options appear to be not to renew the contract, to renew the contract for a short period (The RG suggests to December 2022 or March 2023) or to establish a long-term direct award agreement which replaces the previous franchise and could run for up to ten years. Given the tenor of the comments on all sides I'm thinking it highly unlikely that a long contract would be given to Avanti next month, so presumably the options are around another extension to the ERMA (so that they can sort themselves out and fix the problems etc. etc.) or to terminate all contracts (which would lead to a lot of work required by a lot of people in a short time).

I've no knowledge, but the easy option is to extend the status quo for a further few months, or has patience now run out and the "nuclear" option will be invoked?

Anyway, I reminded myself that October 16 is the key date next here.

I know I'm only restating things that have been said already, but I had to work quite hard to find them all and pull them together in my mind. I'd be happy and grateful for any corrections to this, of course!

EDIT For completeness, here's the text of the Railway Gazette article:

Im not so sure the new Tory ethos will be so supportive of OLR unless the operator is about to go bust. Also using OLR won't create extra drivers the real issue that needs sorting out is restoring relations between staff and management.

 

[bramling]

Im not so sure the new Tory ethos will be so supportive of OLR unless the operator is about to go bust. Also using OLR won't create extra drivers the real issue that needs sorting out is restoring relations between staff and management.

The only real benefit of OLR as I see it is as a way of stemming bad PR, and even then only if they can deliver a noticeable improvement quickly (how?). Otherwise keeping Avanti conveniently allows them to take the bad publicity. Avanti presumably won’t want to walk away as long as the business is still delivering profit.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The only real benefit of OLR as I see it is as a way of stemming bad PR, and even then only if they can deliver a noticeable improvement quickly (how?). Otherwise keeping Avanti conveniently allows them to take the bad publicity. Avanti presumably won’t want to walk away as long as the business is still delivering profit.

When it worked well last year they managed to earn £4m extra for good performance

 

[geoffk]

Many will ask, why is Avanti so bad when, across the other side of the country, LNER is running a full service, including the enhanced service to Harrogate. I've checked RTT for today at KX, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh and there were just two Leeds trains cancelled, one staff related, the other traction. EMR inter-city trains almost as good on the Midland line. Apols if this has been answered before.

 

[GordonT]

Many will ask, why is Avanti so bad when, across the other side of the country, LNER is running a full service, including the enhanced service to Harrogate. I've checked RTT for today at KX, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh and there were just two Leeds trains cancelled, one staff related, the other traction. EMR inter-city trains almost as good on the Midland line. Apols if this has been answered before.

Just a guess but perhaps LNER retains more power within its operating managers despite the efforts of Treasury/DfT/Accountants to exert control with their limited interest in passenger needs. First Group on the other hand is more likely to empathise with and embrace the bean counting fraternity being a similar creature?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

Just a guess but perhaps LNER retains more power within its operating managers despite the efforts of Treasury/DfT/Accountants to exert control with their limited interest in passenger needs. First Group on the other hand is more likely to empathise with and embrace the bean counting fraternity being a similar creature itself?

 

[43066]

She goes onto say the problem isn't enough diversity in the driver community and they are too old.

Honestly. She needs to get a grip. Nothing like a bit of casual racism, sexism and ageism against the current cohort of drivers! Utterly disingenuous drivel.

obviously there will need to be more drivers recruited to deal with natural turnover, and more still when Sundays are brought inside the week for everyone.

It does sound like we are heading towards committed Sundays across the board… As someone whose Sundays are already inside my working week, I expect a decent pay rise .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

But as explained before, there are enough drivers. Just not enough with all the relevant competencies, because training has been hit so hard.

obviously there will need to be more drivers recruited to deal with natural turnover, and more still when Sundays are brought inside the week for everyone.

I would pose the question as follows:

When depots are at full complement, does Avanti employ enough drivers to cover all required services, including Sundays and taking account of training/route retention/sickness/annual leave requirements, without relying on significant levels of overtime?

If the answer to that question is “yes”, I’ll agree that they employ enough drivers. I’ll also (metaphorically) eat my hat!

 

[Bald Rick]

Many will ask, why is Avanti so bad when, across the other side of the country, LNER is running a full service, including the enhanced service to Harrogate. I've checked RTT for today at KX, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh and there were just two Leeds trains cancelled, one staff related, the other traction. EMR inter-city trains almost as good on the Midland line. Apols if this has been answered before.

LNER have three significant differences compared to Avanti:

1) LNER had a major driver recruitment around 3 years ago to allow for all the extra services that were planned to operate in the December 2021 May 2022 May 2023 who knows when ECML timetable recast. Therefore they, in theory, have many more drivers than they need for the current workload.

2) LNER had much less of an issue with training needs (the amount of training requirements arising) and the ability to get people trained during COVID. The former is due to demographics, the latter due to local relationships with ASLEF

3) LNER have a much more flexible set of local agreements with ASLEF than Avanti do. For example if there are unfillable gaps in the roster, it is my understanding that LNER can use Driver Managers to drive the service. That is not allowed at Avanti.

If the answer to that question is “yes”, I’ll agree that they employ enough drivers. I’ll also (metaphorically) eat my hat!

My understanding is yes they do. Although that is being tested. How would you like your hat served?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Just a guess but perhaps LNER retains more power within its operating managers despite the efforts of Treasury/DfT/Accountants to exert control with their limited interest in passenger needs. First Group on the other hand is more likely to empathise with and embrace the bean counting fraternity being a similar creature?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

No, everybody is under the same restrictions these days - the owning group is irrelevant.

As Bald Rick states above, the reasons revolve around how many drivers you employed pre-COVID and how much training you have been able to do in the meantime. If you are in the mire, it isn’t a quick fix.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

I have to say my experience riding AWC Tuesday was favorable. Everything at Euston seemed to be running on time for them, whereas LNWR were having a few issues. With the new timetable the 0910 boat train to Holyhead is now replaced by an Edinburg train as far as Crewe then a connection which now misses the Irish Ferries Ulysses (as recommended by seat61) but does connect with the later Stena sailing.

Maybe we just got lucky that day.

 

[dk1]

I have to say my experience riding AWC Tuesday was favorable.
Maybe we just got lucky that day.

Avanti are holding up at above 90% so far today although they’ve only run 47 trains so far.

 

[chiltern trev]

For info, Trudi Harrison is MP for Copeland, that is Whitehaven and West Cumbria south thereof, so if travelling to Westminster by train would be using Avanti from Penrith or Carlisle.

 

[philthetube]

The diversity issue worries me, it shows a bit of wanting to say things to gain approval instead of sorting things.

If you have ten middle aged white male drivers how does that equate to less trains running than if you have all 10 from different countries.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The diversity issue worries me, it shows a bit of wanting to say things to gain approval instead of sorting things.

If you have ten middle aged white male drivers how does that equate to less trains running than if you have 5 male 5 female some gay some not and all 10 from different countries.

The diversity issue is a true one though. Part of the issue is the massive increase in retirements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2022 ==

Clumsy wording, but she’s not totally wrong…

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The diversity issue worries me, it shows a bit of wanting to say things to gain approval instead of sorting things.
If you have ten middle aged white male drivers how does that equate to less trains running than if you have all 10 from different countries.

Doesn't it mean things like age distribution, gender and ethnic minority makeup?
They will all (or mostly) be from "this country".

 

[geoffk]

Just a guess but perhaps LNER retains more power within its operating managers despite the efforts of Treasury/DfT/Accountants to exert control with their limited interest in passenger needs. First Group on the other hand is more likely to empathise with and embrace the bean counting fraternity being a similar creature?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

Maybe my post yesterday was premature as it seems LNER has issues today with some trains removed from the timetable.

 

[Pinus contorta]

For info, Trudi Harrison is MP for Copeland, that is Whitehaven and West Cumbria south thereof, so if travelling to Westminster by train would be using Avanti from Penrith or Carlisle.

I think Trudi Harrison is based around Bootle, certainly the constituency office was based in Bootle , last time I looked. I would suggest she is more likely to travel from Oxenholme or Lancaster. Probably not Carlisle.

 

[43066]

The diversity issue is a true one though. Part of the issue is the massive increase in retirements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2022 ==

Clumsy wording, but she’s not totally wrong…

Odd way of putting it, though. It’s just a function of a lot of drivers reaching retirement age around the same time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2022 ==

My understanding is yes they do. Although that is being tested. How would you like your hat served?

If that is the case they’re unique amongst U.K. TOCs!

I’ll have it with lashings of ketchup please!

 

[Carlisle]

Doesn't it mean things like age distribution, gender and ethnic minority makeup?
They will all (or mostly) be from "this country".

What difference would that make?
There’s probably far more diversity on London Underground, yet strikes occur frequently

 

[the sniper]

If that is the case they’re unique amongst U.K. TOCs!


I’ll have it with lashings of ketchup please!

I think they need to reconsider their formula if they think the numbers add up, not just at Avanti.

 

[Trainbike46]

What difference would that make?
There’s probably far more diversity on London Underground, yet strikes occur frequently

Age distribution matters quite a lot; you don't want loads of people retiring at the same time, it causes issues with training and replacement. Having employees of a wide range of ages reduces the likelihood of that happening.

Ethnic & gender diversity matter too, but mostly in the sense of "How did we end up in the current situation?" and that you're potentially missing out on very suitable candidates. There's also the point that it just isn't right that people can't get a specific job because of gender identity/ethnicity/etc.