Railway-wise, what is each country best at?

[PTR 444]

A common misconception for many people is that railways should function and operate exactly the same regardless of the country they are located in. This is not true however as politics and geography play a huge part in the differences between systems worldwide. For example, the Netherlands is essentially a glorified metro which allows passengers to use a single smartcard throughout the country. Switzerland prioritises guaranteed connections rather than direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. Japan focuses on speed and moving high volumes of passengers at once, while the USA prioritises movement of freight over passengers, with the few long-distance passenger trains operating as a vacation option rather than conventional public transport.

These might be good or bad things depending on the type of passenger, but no two railway systems around the world are ever going to be exactly the same. Instead, playing to strengths is key, so what individual strength do you think makes a particular country’s railway system stand out compared to other countries?

 

[Giugiaro]

Portugal is known to run ancient stock as if it was new. Vide CP 3150/3250, some coaches are 96 years old and they still run regular commuter services every year.
While that, the InterRegional services on the Douro line currently depend on 74-year-old coaches and 55-year-old locomotives, with no viable alternative.
The average age of the company's rolling stock is now around 30 years. The newest stock is now 20 years old.

 

[StephenHunter]

Austria is very good at sleeper trains and the Railjet is also superb.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think it's changing in Europe.
The "one national system" is breaking down into long-distance/high speed, regional and even local segments for which tickets are often not interchangeable, even if apparently operated by the same company (eg SNCF and its TGV/TER operations).
Plus "foreign" or open access trains operating domestically - eg Ital in Italy, Ouigo in Spain and Westbahn in Austria.
There are still national characteristics, but the differences are blurring.
The same trains (from Alstom, Siemens, Stadler, CAF) are also appearing all over Europe in slightly differing guises.

 

[Beebman]

Austria is very good at sleeper trains and the Railjet is also superb.

The RailJet is most definitely superb, I’m on one now at Innsbruck Hbf. I’ve so far had a fault-free time in Austria but in Germany last Friday DB served up the following:

• A cancelled ICE
• A short-formed ICE (1 unit instead of 2)
• A 50-minute late ICE
• An RE with only one working toilet on the whole train.

The next leg of my Interrail will be in Switzerland, I’ll see how things are with SBB but hopefully all will be fine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB isn't perfect, some parts of it have a very rough feel, and it can be expensive (the Halbtax works on the basis of "think of a fare, double it then sell a discount card to discount it back to reasonable levels"). However it does feel and operate like a solid, trustworthy piece of infrastructure, and just exudes operational competence.

 

[AdamWW]

, while the USA prioritises movement of freight over passengers, with the few long-distance passenger trains operating as a vacation option rather than conventional public transport.

I've seen the above said many times, but in my experience (admittedly not extensive and and mostly some time ago now), the majority of people in seated accommodation on long distance Amtrak journeys I talked to were there to get from A to B (where usually A and B weren't the start and end of the train's journey) not for fun. They all had their reasons for not flying or driving.

Of course Amtrak also runs a more European style service on the North East corridor and Pacific Surfliner routes. (At one point I believe the Washington to New York trains got to higher speeds (briefly) than anywhere in the UK).

And there are also some pretty extensive "commuter" operations. Taking Amtrak and commuter operations into account, if the area around the North East Corridor was considered to be a country on its own it would be one with a pretty extensive passenger rail service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

SBB isn't perfect, some parts of it have a very rough feel, and it can be expensive (the Halbtax works on the basis of "think of a fare, double it then sell a discount card to discount it back to reasonable levels"). However it does feel and operate like a solid, trustworthy piece of infrastructure, and just exudes operational competence.

And of course SBB is just part of a "travel system" where at least when buying point to point tickets (not quite so much with passes) you don't need to know which operators are responsible for your journey.

Contrast with the Netherlands where while they might indeed have a national smartcard scheme which all operators accept, they charge separately* - so to keep the accounting straight if you change between companies you have to tap out from one and in for the other (I think even if both are operating "National Rail" services).

* Having said that, fares work as a "boarding charge" + distance based element. If you change between vehicles/modes of transport within a certain time you don't get charged the boarding charge again and I think that even applies if you change operators so there is some integration there.

 

[DanielB]

Contrast with the Netherlands where while they might indeed have a national smartcard scheme which all operators accept, they charge separately* - so to keep the accounting straight if you change between companies you have to tap out from one and in for the other (I think even if both are operating "National Rail" services).

* Having said that, fares work as a "boarding charge" + distance based element. If you change between vehicles/modes of transport within a certain time you don't get charged the boarding charge again and I think that even applies if you change operators so there is some integration there.

Yes, tapping out and in is always required when changing operator. Regardless of which service they run.
The boarding fee is indeed not charged again when changing operator on bus/tram/metro, for trains it depends on the fare system of the respective regional operator. Especially on integrated bus/rail networks the fares usually integrate as well. Although there is an exception: when you travel on a discount product of operator A and change to operator B where this product is not valid it will count as a new trip and not as a change.

As mentioned above, the Dutch network is more a metro system. But like the Swiss, we also have a schedule that's planned with excellent connections. Most noticeable one is Zwolle, the base for the entire timetable countrywide, where almost everything connects with a quick change. (Also resulting in a station with 11 platforms which is almost completely empty for 40 minutes each hour).
Unfortunate however, those connections are not guaranteed.

Something the Netherlands also excels in is the incredibly high standard for stations. Even the smallest ones will comply with those standards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of course SBB is just part of a "travel system" where at least when buying point to point tickets (not quite so much with passes) you don't need to know which operators are responsible for your journey.

This is mostly just something for tourists which could sort-of be compared to BritRail but with bus and ferry validity as well. While SBB can issue tickets for more or less anything (though bus companies often use their own system and can't) you normally have to specify your route if you're going to be using buses and the likes. The term "Swiss Travel System" is not used at all within the country.

Ferries are sometimes integrated in the UK, for instance the Mersey Ferries can be used on a Saveaway or Trio ticket, though you can't do a full loop and have to get off and wait an hour for the next one or go back by train, and once Seacombe reopens you won't be able to use it for Woodside <-> Seacombe which is considered a "cruise" as it doesn't really serve a useful public transport purpose.

Contrast with the Netherlands where while they might indeed have a national smartcard scheme which all operators accept, they charge separately* - so to keep the accounting straight if you change between companies you have to tap out from one and in for the other (I think even if both are operating "National Rail" services).

Yep, correct. Though because the charges are kilometric plus a fixed starting fee for the whole trip, you're not really disadvantaged by having to make a change unlike on UK bus operators.

 

[dutchflyer]

The UK for its utmost complicated and not able to understand fare-structure and in some cases sky-high fares. But as it was the very 1st to have railways for public use, it has quite a bit of variation in the services from high-density heavy commuterlines to pretty fast intercity and also quite a few pretty local lines meandering through the inviting countryside.
Czech for its very dense network often still with tiny railcars which carry even less pax as the routebus on faster roads besides it.
Germany-at the moment-for the eternal delays, cancellations and often overcrowding. It used to have a pretty good system, but not for now.
Austria for its eco-friendly politics-the season tickets for 1/2/3 €/day for local/regional/national and the promotion of these overnight trains (still a tiny niche market though for many).
The Scandinavians (all 4, incl. Finland) for its high standard of comfort, for the size of population quite good network and frequent service and also doing away with about all traditional things of railways: no more counters selling tickets (all on phone or card), even no more printed info at all (just scan QR and see it) and much OMO. And it works-for the locals at least.
The formerly known ´communist´ broad gauge assemble of formerly Soviet republics for its all-sleeper coaches (kupey or platskart=compartment or open plan) and stern or even friendly ´provodnitsa´ manning each of them. No numbered classes-only named as such.
China for its put in working order even speedier as the speed those trains run as hi-speed now connecting all its multimillions cities and even going into Tibet with the aim to go on. In a few years this network is bigger as all other such networks combined.
In general South-(or even latino-)America as neglecting its railways, maybe just keep on running till it no longer can.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Albania for somehow keeping a tiny operation running despite no maintenance whatsoever other than what the driver can do himself.

 

[AdamWW]

This is mostly just something for tourists which could sort-of be compared to BritRail but with bus and ferry validity as well. While SBB can issue tickets for more or less anything (though bus companies often use their own system and can't) you normally have to specify your route if you're going to be using buses and the likes. The term "Swiss Travel System" is not used at all within the country.

Interesting. The one time I actually bought a ticket for travel in Switzerland rather than using a pass I thought they had a German style arrangement where you just specified the zones you wanted and it covered everything that moved in the areas involved. I don't recall it mentioning any particular company.

The SBB travel planner certainly happily comes up with itineraries for assorted railway companies and buses etc.

Yep, correct. Though because the charges are kilometric plus a fixed starting fee for the whole trip, you're not really disadvantaged by having to make a change unlike on UK bus operators.

True - so long as you've invested in an OV Chipkaart. If you're trying to buy tickets as you go then making a change can be expensive for a short trip. I'm certainly not going to suggest that the UK system is an improvement though.

The UK for its utmost complicated and not able to understand fare-structure and in some cases sky-high fares.

On the other hand if you buy a flexible ticket to go from A to B (or have an Interrail/Eurail pass) you don't usually have to make sure you're using the right train company and/or have paid the right supplement unlike quite a few other European countries - even to the extent that tickets are valid on open access operators.

Of course the rules on when you can use the ticket and on which route can be a little unintuitive at times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting. The one time I actually bought a ticket for travel in Switzerland rather than using a pass I thought they had a German style arrangement where you just specified the zones you wanted and it covered everything that moved in the areas involved. I don't recall it mentioning any particular company.

Ah. They have some fully integrated Verbund areas that are similar to German ones, but they don't cover the whole country, only the bigger cities and their hinterlands as in Germany itself. Away from those, or between them, SBB can sell anything but you'll need to specify route.

 

[AdamWW]

Ah. They have some fully integrated Verbund areas that are similar to German ones, but they don't cover the whole country, only the bigger cities and their hinterlands as in Germany itself. Away from those, or between them, SBB can sell anything but you'll need to specify route.

Thanks for enlightening me. I learn something every day.

It's still an improvement over many countries if there is a single journey planner which will sell you through tickets between assorted companies and types of transport.

Czech for its very dense network often still with tiny railcars which carry even less pax as the routebus on faster roads besides it.

I'd add:
- having a clear policy for holding trains for connections
- going some way to match capacity to demand rather than using pricing policy to adjust demand to capacity
- having an excellent journey planner which works out optimum combinations of tickets for groups (and clearly shows "heritage" trains, both where you can use regular tickets on and where you can't).
- an e-ticket system where even if your phone fails/runs out of battery you can just quote the reservation code
- (And selling CD merchandise in ticket offices even at small stations).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for enlightening me. I learn something every day.

It's still an improvement over many countries if there is a single journey planner which will sell you through tickets between assorted companies and types of transport.

It's certainly not bad! Though another downside is them recently ordering lots of new double deck stock with tiny windows, not good for the most scenic country in the world (arguably).

 

[AdamWW]

It's certainly not bad! Though another downside is them recently ordering lots of new double deck stock with tiny windows, not good for the most scenic country in the world (arguably).

That seems a shame. I don't suppose they have children's playgrounds in them either.

 

[dm1]

Switzerland has an organisation called Alliance SwissPass https://www.allianceswisspass.ch responsible for setting standards and integrating the public transport system as a whole, although with a major focus on making the fares system work. Because of this, generally any journey planner from any of the big operators or tarif associations (SBB, PostBus, ZVV, etc) will be able to sell you a ticket from any point in the country to any other point in the country, and these will be accepted and/or checkable by inspectors anywhere. Nowadays these are often QR codes bought online and displayed either on a mobile device or printed out.

They are also responsible for the eponymous SwissPass, which is a photographic public transport card that stores season tickets and can also be used for everything from ski passes to car/bike sharing and even as a badge for accessing building security systems.

That seems a shame. I don't suppose they have children's playgrounds in them either.

They do - at least the intercity variants . Whilst their performance is improving, that train procurement is nevertheless definitely not one that SBB can consider a success. The small windows are but one of many design flaws.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Poland is useless at absolutely everything except offering dirt cheap fares on very long distance runs.

I seriously cannot think of anything rail-wise where this country excels.

 

[StephenHunter]

Poland is useless at absolutely everything except offering dirt cheap fares on very long distance runs.

I seriously cannot think of anything rail-wise where this country excels.

Amount of loco-haulage?

 

[Austriantrain]

I think it's changing in Europe.
The "one national system" is breaking down into long-distance/high speed, regional and even local segments for which tickets are often not interchangeable, even if apparently operated by the same company (eg SNCF and its TGV/TER operations).

I don’t agree and I think it represents a very UK-centered lookout on the countries closest to you (which is not a reproach, it’s natural). The French approach is actually pretty unique in Europe and it also does not work that well.

There is a huge part of Europe, namely Central Europe, where rail is strong and successfully working towards integration (and having separate long-distance and regional fares such as in Germany is not per se an impediment).

It’s the same fallacy that often comes up when it is stated that international services are, nowadays, mostly open-access. Yes, they are increasing, but the vast majority of international trains in those countries that have the most international train services in general (France is not among them…) is still very traditionally oriented and I don’t see that changing (cross-border regional services are almost always forgotten in these regards, but they are anything but rare).

Plus "foreign" or open access trains operating domestically - eg Ital in Italy, Ouigo in Spain and Westbahn in Austria.

With the „Klimaticket“, Westbahn has recently been largely integrated into the national system at least for commuters and regular customers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

Austria is very good at sleeper trains and the Railjet is also superb.

Never heard anyone in Austria call the Railjet superb.

 

[AdamWW]

There is a huge part of Europe, namely Central Europe, where rail is strong and successfully working towards integration (and having separate long-distance and regional fares such as in Germany is not per se an impediment).

I can see a good justification for local tickets not being valid on intercity trains (as in Germany).

Having intercity tickets not valid on regional trains seems less helpful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

Never heard anyone in Austria call the Railjet superb.

I like having a "high speed" train with a proper engine, and indeed a Railjet is one of the very few times I've been on a train with an engine in the middle which certainly scores for novelty value.

 

[Austriantrain]

I can see a good justification for local tickets not being valid on intercity trains (as in Germany).

Having intercity tickets not valid on regional trains seems less helpful.

Isn’t that exactly how it is in Germany? AFAIK you can always „downgrade“, as long as you don’t have a ticket valid only for one specific train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

I like having a "high speed" train with a proper engine, and indeed a Railjet is one of the very few times I've been on a train with an engine in the middle which certainly scores for novelty value.

Believe me, if you travel on it every day, like I do, it quickly loses its interest, and the general public couldn’t care less.

In general, RJ is quite well regarded, but also seen as very cramped in second class. But it is not seen as „superb“ and there are plenty of people who prefer older coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

The term "Swiss Travel System" is not used at all within the country.

Which is not an issue because Swiss people are passionate public-transport users and know how to navigate the system. And those that travel often have a Generalabonnement anyway.

 

[AdamWW]

Isn’t that exactly how it is in Germany? AFAIK you can always „downgrade“, as long as you don’t have a ticket valid only for one specific train.

It is, and I'm sure it's very useful at the moment with ICE's being a bit less than reliable. But an earlier post seemed to suggests that it wasn't the case throughout France, and the last time I was in Poland I don't think it was the case there either.

Believe me, if you travel on it every day, like I do, it quickly loses its interest, and the general public couldn’t care less.

In general, RJ is quite well regarded, but also seen as very cramped in second class. But it is not seen as „superb“ and there are plenty of people who prefer older coaches.

I'm sure most people don't even notice whether their train has an engine or not. But this is after all a forum for those who pay more attention to such things.

The first time I used one it would have been quite nice if the reservation displays had come on before we started boarding, and failing that if the guard hadn't been so dismissive when I asked if there was any way of knowing where was safe to sit.

 

[JonasB]

Never heard anyone in Austria call the Railjet superb.

The grass is always greener on the other side…

 

[AdamWW]

Amount of loco-haulage?

Wolsztyn steam?

 

[johncrossley]

True - so long as you've invested in an OV Chipkaart. If you're trying to buy tickets as you go then making a change can be expensive for a short trip.

That's the whole point! It is the norm to encourage passengers to get a ticket before boarding the bus. Otherwise the driver has to waste time issuing tickets. Britain (outside London) is the anomaly where bus drivers sell a lot of tickets. Even tickets for a week or even longer, which is crazy.

If you only use trains in the Netherlands then you don't need an OV-Chipkaart as you can use the app instead.

Contrast with the Netherlands where while they might indeed have a national smartcard scheme which all operators accept, they charge separately* - so to keep the accounting straight if you change between companies you have to tap out from one and in for the other (I think even if both are operating "National Rail" services).

It is slightly annoying, but I see this as comparable to using TfL's pink Oyster readers. It is a minor inconvenience to tap a smartcard on the platform reader while changing trains compared to the hassle of having to buy paper or e-tickets, even if you get a single ticket/e-ticket for the whole journey.

As mentioned above, the Dutch network is more a metro system. But like the Swiss, we also have a schedule that's planned with excellent connections. Most noticeable one is Zwolle, the base for the entire timetable countrywide, where almost everything connects with a quick change. (Also resulting in a station with 11 platforms which is almost completely empty for 40 minutes each hour).
Unfortunate however, those connections are not guaranteed.

The Swiss connections are more reliable, however the Dutch ones are usually more tightly timed, so changing trains is not much slower than a direct train. In Switzerland, the connection times can be quite long, especially where trains turn around like at Luzern. But they usually wait a reasonable time for delayed connections, so there is less anxiety when making connections.

 

[duesselmartin]

The grass is always greener on the other side…

I also find the Railjet superb. Better than anything DB has on offer. Comfortable and a smooth ride.

 

[AdamWW]

That's the whole point! It is the norm to encourage passengers to get a ticket before boarding the bus. Otherwise the driver has to waste time issuing tickets. Britain (outside London) is the anomaly where bus drivers sell a lot of tickets. Even tickets for a week or even longer, which is crazy.

I think we're at cross purposes. I was referring to the fact that since buses sell expensive tickets on board (as you say to encourage people not to do that) which are limited to one company, the cost of changing onto another bus/tram depends on whether the two happen to be operated by the same company or not. It might cost you nothing to go a few stops on the next bus. It might cost you over 5 Euros.

It is slightly annoying, but I see this as comparable to using TfL's pink Oyster readers. It is a minor inconvenience to tap a smartcard on the platform reader while changing trains compared to the hassle of having to buy paper or e-tickets, even if you get a single ticket/e-ticket for the whole journey.

It's a minor inconvenience if you know you have to do and and if you remember. I don't think there are that many journeys that require the pink readers in London and if you fail to use them so far as I know you'll just be charged as if you went by a more expensive route. You won't be charged for two incomplete journeys because you failed to check out from one company and in for another.

I find the system in the Netherlands quite annoying. In particular I don't find having to spend 7.50 Euros up front and then carefully maintain my balance so I don't have unrecoverable money on the card when I leave the country particularly helpful. At least in the days when you had to worry about having foreign currency left over you could change it back when you got home, albeit at a loss. Likewise just about anywhere else once I've bought a day ticket all I have to do is show it on request and use it to get through any barriers, not remember to tap on (and off!) every single bus or tram I use.

Even worse if you're travelling with children and have to make sure they've done it properly too.

I may be unusual in this but I think good public transport should be easy to use for those unfamiliar with it, and passengers shouldn't be penalised for failing to organise their lives so that their journeys can be made with a single operator (and I do appreciate that the UK falls down very badly in this respect).

 

[johncrossley]

I think we're at cross purposes. I was referring to the fact that since buses sell expensive tickets on board (as you say to encourage people not to do that) which are limited to one company, the cost of changing onto another bus/tram depends on whether the two happen to be operated by the same company or not. It might cost you nothing to go a few stops on the next bus. It might cost you over 5 Euros.

In some cases, they even make you buy another ticket if you are changing buses with the same company. In such cases you can consider them to be almost akin to a 'penalty fare'.

I find the system in the Netherlands quite annoying. In particular I don't find having to spend 7.50 Euros up front and then carefully maintain my balance so I don't have unrecoverable money on the card when I leave the country particularly helpful. At least in the days when you had to worry about having foreign currency left over you could change it back when you got home, albeit at a loss. Likewise just about anywhere else once I've bought a day ticket all I have to do is show it on request and use it to get through any barriers, not remember to tap on (and off!) every single bus or tram I use.

This is obviously inconvenient for tourists, but because the OV-Chipkaart is valid in the whole country, this is not a major issue for Dutch people. The OV-Chipkaart is primarily aimed at the domestic market, and maybe regular visitors. There are even facilities to pay in arrears, so you don't even need to maintain a balance, but only if you get a personal card, which aren't generally available to tourists.

I presume they want people to touch out on unlimited travel day tickets so they can use the data for planning purposes, and for distributing revenue across the different operators (where applicable), instead of relying on less accurate surveys.

 

[AdamWW]

I presume they want people to touch out on unlimited travel day tickets so they can use the data for planning purposes, and for distributing revenue across the different operators (where applicable), instead of relying on less accurate surveys.

I presume the same. Maximum convenience to the operators, maximum inconvenience to passengers.

Their choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

Going back to the original post, so far as I can make out the UK is unusual in the amount of real time data that's made publicly available.

Maybe I've just been unlucky in the countries I've been to recently, but they didn't seem to have anything with the functionality of Traksy, Realtimetrains and the like.

Even the official web sites seemed to have less clear information on real time performance of passenger trains than National Rail and the operators here provide.