WAG EXPRESS Mark 2 to be announced today

[Gareth Marston]

...are these 150s delayed by the delay in 172 production, meaning the LM/LO 150s aren't moving to FGW fast enough to release the welsh 150s? I find it hard to keep track of all the cascading!

WAG agreed to fund 6 ex Scotrail 150/2's in 2007 for Ebbw Vale & Valley Lines. Then as all the road program schemes had gone way over budget (average of by 61% according to a recent damming audit report) they sub leased 5 of them to FGW after their franchise wining cut the number of DMU's crisis as a way to earn money. 2 are still with FGW way past the original send them back date.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Well if ATW can get away with a 175, that's a tidy profit out of the £3.5M funding for running the train, and of course ATW keep the fares as part of the deal to run both trains , of which Gerald gets £1.7M sub this year plus fares.

ATW of course want to run via Crewe,as they expect to extract more fare money,but Political promises have been made.

So those sums (£3.5m and £1.7m) are actually the total cost of running the service, not (as I expected) totalRunningCost - (expected revenue - atwProfitMargin)?

If so, the costs of running the trains now sound a lot more resonable to me than they did before. Just how much cheaper would a 175 be, broken down into fuel use, leasing costs and track maintenance/access if possible please (both versus 57 + 4 coaches and versus 67 + 5 coaches (the 5th being a DVT)? Personally I expect 47s or 57s and mrk2s (plus the mrk3 buffet) would be better value, because the push-pull vehicle would be a passenger-carrying DBSO not an empty DVT.

Also, isn't the national transport plan a political promise? They promised there that there'd be an hourly service on Cambrian main line by 2011, well it is 2011 now and no hourly service. I just hope that means there's hope to make them see sence and scrap their large road schemes (and their huge ones). £50m down our way for St Clears to Red Roses, how much journey time could you knock off Cardiff to Whitland for that?

 

[merlodlliw]

So those sums (£3.5m and £1.7m) are actually the total cost of running the service, not (as I expected) totalRunningCost - (expected revenue - atwProfitMargin)?

If so, the costs of running the trains now sound a lot more resonable to me than they did before. Just how much cheaper would a 175 be, broken down into fuel use, leasing costs and track maintenance/access if possible please (both versus 57 + 4 coaches and versus 67 + 5 coaches (the 5th being a DVT)? Personally I expect 47s or 57s and mrk2s (plus the mrk3 buffet) would be better value, because the push-pull vehicle would be a passenger-carrying DBSO not an empty DVT.

Also, isn't the national transport plan a political promise? They promised there that there'd be an hourly service on Cambrian main line by 2011, well it is 2011 now and no hourly service. I just hope that means there's hope to make them see sence and scrap their large road schemes (and their huge ones). £50m down our way for St Clears to Red Roses, how much journey time could you knock off Cardiff to Whitland for that?

I don't know about the total running costs of the WAGs, but the monies agreed are what ATW have screwed out of The Minister.
Another year of Gerald was only agreed a month before the end of the previous years contract & increased to £1.7M, a tidy sum.

As for costs of 175, it will be cheaper to run without catering staff,only a trolley. But a DMU is hardly a Premier Class train,no first for Junction Wag staff & politicians

As for the 67s plus DVT, ATW want to get rid of the 57s, hence all the driver training on 67s taking place,and of course via Wrexham, the route ATW wanted to avoid, but Ministerial promises have been made and will be called to account.

As for the Cambrian, at a meeting of SCRUA last year a senior ATW Manager told us, if WAG come up with the money, we will run the service,Gareth is expert on this line & its aspirations.

 

[TDK]

These rumours are circulated everywhere today

1. The second service wont run before May,15 weeks of idle stock.

2.The second slot is too close at 0723 to the first WAG, unless the first WAG is sent via Wrexham using DVT, but a path needs to be found from Chester.
There may still be a path for the old W/S from Crewe early morning?
3.No good for the local W/S staff, unless the catering starts at Wrexham,which is probably out of the question.

4.Discussions are indeed taking place between WAG/ATW/DB on the 67s & ATW driver training

There is frantic activity today to get something on the W/S paths out of
Wrexham to Shrewsbury as the 0723 W/S was a link to catch the WAG at Shrewsbury, now this is gone the only option is the 0630 to Cardiff & opposition A.Ms are demanding action.

In my opinion an ATW feeder will be used between Wrexham & Shrewsbury
at 0723 in the short term, to allow passengers to join the WAG Express, as the ATW Shrewsbury feeder to the VT terminates at Wrexham at 0645 this could be used, unless it runs empty to some where else, also there was a good loading of pax leaving Gobowen for work in Shropshire that caught the 2nd up W./S


Bob

The 07.23 path will not be available because ATW gave up the 07.00 path to VT from Wrexham to Chester

 

[tbtc]

I don't know about the total running costs of the WAGs, but the monies agreed are what ATW have screwed out of The Minister

Well played ATW for screwing money out of the Politicians

 

[TDK]

Well played ATW for screwing money out of the Politicians

Shame the WAG didn't fund WSMR, the service that actually linked North Wales to London however the WAG ministers don't need to go to London do they!

 

[tbtc]

Shame the WAG didn't fund WSMR, the service that actually linked North Wales to London however the WAG ministers don't need to go to London do they!

To be fair to the WAG, they did spend a lot of taxpayer money at Wrexham, primarily to benefit WSMR http://www.shropshirestar.com/latest/2006/10/19/pledge-over-capital-rail-link/ & http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6168562.stm - there's certainly the suggestion that without this public subsidy of a private business the service wouldn't have to/from Wrexham as it did.

I agree though that London and Westminster is at least as important, and the fact that the Scottish Parliament haven't spent money on a token direct service for MSPs from Stranraer/ Oban (etc) to Edinburgh, but have spent money on the kind of improvements which will benefit passengers elsewhere shows they are spending public money better than the WAG.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This article explains DB's problems quite well and has relevance to WSMR's demise. They forget to concentrate on running trains in Germany basically.

http://www.economist.com/node/18114823?story_id=18114823&fsrc=rss
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What one part of WAG is allegedly saying about another part (rail bit at bottom)

who said what... at a glance

* by Martin Shipton, Western Mail
* Feb 10 2011

*
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* 0Share
*
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What Labour sources say:

Ieuan Wyn Jones is an incompetent minister who has alienated the business community through his unresponsiveness;

they are concerned his poor handling of the economy and transport portfolio could impact badly on Labour’s prospects in the May Assembly election; and

they stress the attack is not on Assembly Government policy or on Plaid, but on Mr Jones’ personal performance.
Click here to find out more!

What Plaid Cymru says:

Labour’s attacks are personal and unjustified;

Ieuan Wyn Jones has rescued a major government department that was “out of control with no leadership, no financial management and no direction”;

when he took over as minister in 2007, there were huge project over-spends, largely because the Assembly Government had agreed to pick up the tab when councils allowed the cost of road projects to spiral; and

the previous Labour administration demonstrated its incompetence by buying rail stock they could not afford to use in Wales, which they leased to a rail company in England.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...hat-at-a-glance-91466-28146083/#ixzz1DfcBbHcv

 

[tbtc]

What Plaid Cymru says:

the previous Labour administration demonstrated its incompetence by buying rail stock they could not afford to use in Wales, which they leased to a rail company in England

Apart from the fact that Labour didn't "buy" the 150s (but took over the lease of them when Scotrail no longer required them, due to additional 170s), and the fact that FGW (the company the 150s were subleased to) operate trains to Newport/ Cardiff/ Swansea etc (okay, the FGW 150s won't be running to Swansea, but its still a capacity increase for a TOC which serves Wales)...

Still, the facts never get in the way of a local political spat do they?

 

[Chris125]

Shame the WAG didn't fund WSMR, the service that actually linked North Wales to London however the WAG ministers don't need to go to London do they!

The Welsh Assembly cant fund open access operators.

Chris

 

[anthony263]

The Welsh Assembly cant fund open access operators.

Chris

Isnt that 1 of the reasons why ATW had the WAG express contract when the service 1st started?

I know and there was a thread on this forum at the time about grand central looking at operating the WAG express

 

[merlodlliw]

The Welsh Assembly cant fund open access operators.

Chris

Why do you say this, I don't know of any reason they can not support Private Company's, WAG through its quango The Welsh Development agency,spent £Millions on private company's.
The WAG having got rid of the WDA,itself spends £millions still on Private
Companies.

Bob

 

[TDK]

1) If Chester-Wrexham (and v.v.) is the issue, why not start and end there? Express Coach could make a connection from e.g. Flint.

2) Alternatively, what if this train took over existing paths (and stops) on the critical Chester-Wrexham section (and v.v.), presumably with an increase in available seats (and comfort) throughout between Chester and Shrewsbury.

Because the money received by ATW is far greater if the train is run via Crewe
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So if it is a 175, that would mean ATW pocketing a lot of the £3.5M funding they are going to get from WAG.
My money is still on a 67 with a DVT, a 175 is not a 1st Premier Service train its just a DMU.And all the current ATW driver training on 67s is not for DMUs

Also I note the early 0425 Holyhead to Cardiff 175 is diagrammed to Milford Haven an 8 (eight) hour journey arr 1227 from May.

The funding may include refurbishment of existing DB stock

 

[Gareth Marston]

Apart from the fact that Labour didn't "buy" the 150s (but took over the lease of them when Scotrail no longer required them, due to additional 170s), and the fact that FGW (the company the 150s were subleased to) operate trains to Newport/ Cardiff/ Swansea etc (okay, the FGW 150s won't be running to Swansea, but its still a capacity increase for a TOC which serves Wales)...

Still, the facts never get in the way of a local political spat do they?

The sub leasing of the 150/2's to FGW allowed some strengthening of the Cardiff/Taunton stoppers amongst other English only services, however the capacity issues on the Cardiff/Taunton service are all on the English side of the Bristol Channel. The 10 carriages were predominately used in England.

 

[TDK]

The Welsh Assembly cant fund open access operators.

Chris

Isn't gerald Open Acess as it is beyond the franchise agreement, I know the london bid from Aber was open acess -

 

[merlodlliw]

Shame the WAG didn't fund WSMR, the service that actually linked North Wales to London however the WAG ministers don't need to go to London do they!

You are correct WAG never funded WSMR, The money spent on the bays at Wrexham was European funding for infrastructural work,it was paid direct to Network rail who sub contracted it, and it was paid to pull the Local A.M. out of a situation she had landed herself in, voting for the £millions for Ebbw Vale and not her own area of Clwyd South. No WAG direct money could be given to Wrexham for employment direct as Wrexham was objective three.

The monies were paid By WEFO to Network Rail, Funny how times change,WAG now pay for its express to run into Crewe,well for the time being.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't gerald Open Acess as it is beyond the franchise agreement, I know the london bid from Aber was open acess -

Correct, and the Minister foolishly supported ATW on its London disaster which was open access.

 

[Railjet]

This article explains DB's problems quite well and has relevance to WSMR's demise. They forget to concentrate on running trains in Germany basically.

http://www.economist.com/node/18114823?story_id=18114823&fsrc=rss

Thanks for posting that link - very interesting article.

 

[Chris125]

Why do you say this, I don't know of any reason they can not support Private Company's, WAG through its quango The Welsh Development agency,spent £Millions on private company's.
The WAG having got rid of the WDA,itself spends £millions still on Private
Companies.

Bob

I hope Tony Miles (of Modern Railways magazine) wont mind if i quote what he said over on wnxx -

"As I understand it the WAG and indeed DfT in England can't subsidise an Open Access operation. It isn't allowed legally.
This came up when the "tender" for the first WAG express came up and both WSMR and Grand Central wanted to bid to run it. Both were told that they couldn't bid because the WAG was barred from using public money to support Open Access against a franchised TOC. Assuming this is correct (and I got it from both OA operators) then there wasn't any way the WAG could prop up WSMR.
Effectively this is why ATW runs the WAG express(es) and not anyone else."

I hope that clears it up, the rest of Tony's post (bottom of page) is also very interesting.

Chris

 

[merlodlliw]

I hope Tony Miles (of Modern Railways magazine) wont mind if i quote what he said over on wnxx -

"As I understand it the WAG and indeed DfT in England can't subsidise an Open Access operation. It isn't allowed legally.
This came up when the "tender" for the first WAG express came up and both WSMR and Grand Central wanted to bid to run it. Both were told that they couldn't bid because the WAG was barred from using public money to support Open Access against a franchised TOC. Assuming this is correct (and I got it from both OA operators) then there wasn't any way the WAG could prop up WSMR.
Effectively this is why ATW runs the WAG express(es) and not anyone else."

I hope that clears it up, the rest of Tony's post (bottom of page) is also very interesting.

Chris

I find that strange,it is in effect a restricted practice, ATW is a private Company TOC, I am sure there was some kind of back room deal, so why did WAG advertise the operation, and invite all Companies to bid .

 

[fgwrich]

The sub leasing of the 150/2's to FGW allowed some strengthening of the Cardiff/Taunton stoppers amongst other English only services, however the capacity issues on the Cardiff/Taunton service are all on the English side of the Bristol Channel. The 10 carriages were predominately used in England.

And i have to say there is a degree of irony in this, because apart from the ex Anglia, Ex Valley Lines/Wales & Borders & Ex Scotrail 150s in ATW's fleet, but also a small batch of ex Wessex Trains 150's too! (Though i can't remember how many transferred over though!)

 

[TDK]

You are correct WAG never funded WSMR, The money spent on the bays at Wrexham was European funding for infrastructural work,it was paid direct to Network rail who sub contracted it, and it was paid to pull the Local A.M. out of a situation she had landed herself in, voting for the £millions for Ebbw Vale and not her own area of Clwyd South. No WAG direct money could be given to Wrexham for employment direct as Wrexham was objective three.

The monies were paid By WEFO to Network Rail, Funny how times change,WAG now pay for its express to run into Crewe,well for the time being.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Correct, and the Minister foolishly supported ATW on its London disaster which was open access.

So if Gerald is OA and you say as othesr do the WAG will never fund OA what is the anwer to that then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I hope Tony Miles (of Modern Railways magazine) wont mind if i quote what he said over on wnxx -

"As I understand it the WAG and indeed DfT in England can't subsidise an Open Access operation. It isn't allowed legally.
This came up when the "tender" for the first WAG express came up and both WSMR and Grand Central wanted to bid to run it. Both were told that they couldn't bid because the WAG was barred from using public money to support Open Access against a franchised TOC. Assuming this is correct (and I got it from both OA operators) then there wasn't any way the WAG could prop up WSMR.
Effectively this is why ATW runs the WAG express(es) and not anyone else."

I hope that clears it up, the rest of Tony's post (bottom of page) is also very interesting.

Chris

Well, it has been revealed here that the WAG express is open access run by ATW as it is beyound their frnachise agreement so therefore are the WAG funding an open access train run by a TOC or not, if so I thinks there may be some major pproblems within WAG with heads rolling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find that strange,it is in effect a restricted practice, ATW is a private Company TOC, I am sure there was some kind of back room deal, so why did WAG advertise the operation, and invite all Companies to bid .

Bfore WSMR started the WAG members were invited to travel on a WSMR set to London to see what it was like and it was after this that the WAG started the Gerald bid - WSMR couldn't run the service due to logistics of the staff at Wrexham so it was offered to ATW who have depots in Wales and England that can cover the work a lot easier - this in my own opinion is why Gerald was started.

 

[merlodlliw]

To be honest, The WAG expresses, dreamed up by the Minister, are in effect
a type of open access, no question about that, as to the legality of all this money spent as subsidy to run them is anyone's guess.
The Minister would not answer the question of cost in the Senedd,said it was confidential, he even refused the A.Ms scrutiny & audit Committee request for the information. It was a request under FIA that got the figures. in the end.

First year of Gerald £1.2M
2nd year .......... £1.7M
£3.5M for Gerald mark 2.

And of course WAGAIR which gets £1.6M a year.

No one as yet challenged the legality of the Wag Expresses,they are not run as part of the Wales & Borders franchise, so what are they, in my opinion
they have to be O A, as they are in the timetable. And of course this only applies in Wales,England/Scotland don't have this type of political transport.
It gets interesting.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

The sub leasing of the 150/2's to FGW allowed some strengthening of the Cardiff/Taunton stoppers amongst other English only services, however the capacity issues on the Cardiff/Taunton service are all on the English side of the Bristol Channel. The 10 carriages were predominately used in England.

Predominantly for England, sure, but they did provide additional capacity between the biggest place in Wales and the third biggest place in Wales, so benefitted Wales to some extent. But I'm not expecting Plaid Cymru to bother with such nuances - they seem to have their minds made up...