Grimsby Town - Heathrow early October

[DeeGee]

Good afternoon, I've always had excellent advice here and so I'm coming here again to see what the collective expertise here thinks.

I'm going to Chicago for the Marathon, out on 6th October and back on 10th. Originally I had booked from Manchester connecting at Heathrow, but BA have cancelled this flight, so I decided to make my own way to Heathrow instead.

Flight departs at 15:40. Cautious me would like to be at the airport by 1pm.

By my reckoning, the latest I can leave Grimsby Town to do this is 0832. I believe that this is the first train that I can get that would count as Super Off-Peak? This gets me to London via Doncaster at about 11:31, and then I can get the Piccadilly Line from KGX.

My flight back is scheduled to arrive at 11am on the 10th October. I believe that I should be able to get the last Super Off-Peak valid train from KGX, the 1456 Grand Central.

I have £47 worth of E-vouchers from a TPE refund, and if I'm splitting my ticket I'll book the other bit with LNER for a 12% Amex cashback.

Now, as I understand it, Super Off-Peak Return is £107.70, plus I need to add on Oyster to Heathrow Terminal 5. Would that be valid for the timings as suggested above?

Alternatively, I've put together an itinerary on the same trains as advances for a cost of £60.90. This works for me. I'd rather have flexibility to get home as I'm sure 3 hours is enough from Heathrow but one can't be too sure! I'd also probably like to come home earlier if its possible?

What I'm wondering is, however, whether I'm going to be able to rely on these timings or connections. I have found a well-priced hotel in the Heathrow area for the night before, if that would be safer, I can then try to put together a set of split advances to get down there. I don't want to be paying Anytime fares - if that happens then I will go the night before as the difference in cost is a night in a hotel. I don't really want the hotel night, though, as it's an extra night away from my family.

Or is there something I've missed? Is there a significant risk at the moment that the trains don't run? I don't want to have to book a much earlier train to build in a buffer, although I haven't checked the Advance costs for the earlier departures.

What would you do? Go down a day early? Or stick with what I've planned to travel down the morning of the flight? And what's the best value method - is it worth balancing flexibility with price?

Thanks in advance.

 

[_toommm_]

On the way down there, unless you’re planning on using EMR from Grimsby, I wouldn’t risk trying to travel from Grimsby. Transpennine’s reliability is and will continue to be awful for some time, so I wouldn’t rely on them for a leisure journey personally, let alone a very time-sensitive journey such as this.

 

[becky_rtw]

Ref hotel option, the free trains still exist between terminals but the very very useful free bus zone has been scrapped at Heathrow

 

[Hadders]

What's the check-in time for a transatlantic flight from Heathrow? It's an hour from Kings Cross to the airport via the Piccadilly Line so you'd be arriving at the airport around 12:30 if everything is on time. Does this leave sufficient contingency for a flight leaving at 15:40?

 

[Watershed]

Ref hotel option, the free trains still exist between terminals but the very very useful free bus zone has been scrapped at Heathrow

However, it's worth noting that Hatton Cross Tube station is now in the 'free travel area'. And so, despite the increase in fares to Heathrow that took effect yesterday, you can now make the journey cheaper than before by "splitting" at Hatton Cross (exiting and immediately re-entering)!

 

[DeeGee]

unless you’re planning on using EMR from Grimsby

Sadly, now there's no cross platform interchange at Newark (it's now a cross town interchange), EMR is a lot less useful for London.

If it's too unreliable, I'll go the night before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2022 ==

What's the check-in time for a transatlantic flight from Heathrow? It's an hour from Kings Cross to the airport via the Piccadilly Line so you'd be arriving at the airport around 12:30 if everything is on time. Does this leave sufficient contingency for a flight leaving at 15:40?

BA recommend 3 hours.

 

[Hadders]

BA recommend 3 hours.

So if everything’s on time you’ll arrive at Heathrow 3h10 before the flight leaves. That doesn’t leave much time in the event of a delay.

 

[Watershed]

So if everything’s on time you’ll arrive at Heathrow 3h10 before the flight leaves. That doesn’t leave much time in the event of a delay.

I would have said it leaves plenty of time. In reality you'd probably make the flight even if you arrived just an hour beforehand, so there's quite a lot of leeway.

There are several flights a day to Chicago and if you miss your flight, having planned to arrive at the airport at least the recommended duration beforehand, most travel insurance policies will cover you for the cost of booking a new flight.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about that aspect. That being said, I would echo the sentiments of others and wouldn't even consider relying on TPE services for any part of the journey, due to the high level of cancellations that have been ongoing since the start of the year.

 

[miklcct]

So if everything’s on time you’ll arrive at Heathrow 3h10 before the flight leaves. That doesn’t leave much time in the event of a delay.

I normally leave 2 hours before flight departure at Heathrow and I had no problem in making the flight even after a 45-minute delay on the tube. So 3 hours is plenty of time if what you do at Chicago is a marathon.

If you plan to arrive at the airport 3 hours before departure you still have at least 2 hours left for you to wait / reroute in case anything goes wrong with your train. Also you can always reroute yourself onto the Elizabeth line, or even the worst case, Heathrow Express, if you are running out of time.

 

[zero]

For BA at LHR T5, check in (bag drop) closes 60 minutes before scheduled departure and you must have entered the queue for security by 35 minutes before departure or you will be automatically removed from the flight.

The recommended 3 hours is meant as an aim to cater for unexpected (and predictable) delays.

 

[DeeGee]

This is rather reassuring.

I've been looking at a different contingency.

0741 EMR Train from Grimsby to Nottingham, then the 0950 to St Pancras, arriving 1127.

Returning on the 1435 from St Pancras to Nottingham and then the 1634 to Grimsby arriving at 1829

Slightly more time on the train, slightly later arrival home, and slightly more expensive.

I believe with these timings I can split at Nottingham. I've got Anytime Return GMB-NOT via Lincoln for £35.70 and Super Offpeak Return NOT-STP for £70.60, so £106.30 in total. I haven't looked at advances yet.

Are the time restrictions for these tickets acceptable for the itinerary?

In an ideal world, however, I'd like to be able to get the first train northbound from London, so I think I'd rather this than an advance.

Or is there any fare combination that would allow me to see what's running, and then go home via Nottingham, Sheffield or Doncaster, as the mood takes me? I guess the £42.70 Anytime Short Return via ANY PERMITTED would allow travel GMB-NOT via Sheffield, but not via the ECML?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

For BA at LHR T5, check in (bag drop) closes 60 minutes before scheduled departure and you must have entered the queue for security by 35 minutes before departure or you will be automatically removed from the flight.

The recommended 3 hours is meant as an aim to cater for unexpected (and predictable) delays.

KLM quoted me 3 hours for the same reason for all international flights from Humberside International. It's 15 minutes drive, and from kerb through security and into the departure lounge in 5 minutes.

 

[miklcct]

This is rather reassuring.

I've been looking at a different contingency.

0741 EMR Train from Grimsby to Nottingham, then the 0950 to St Pancras, arriving 1127.

Returning on the 1435 from St Pancras to Nottingham and then the 1634 to Grimsby arriving at 1829

Slightly more time on the train, slightly later arrival home, and slightly more expensive.

I believe with these timings I can split at Nottingham. I've got Anytime Return GMB-NOT via Lincoln for £35.70 and Super Offpeak Return NOT-STP for £70.60, so £106.30 in total. I haven't looked at advances yet.

Are the time restrictions for these tickets acceptable for the itinerary?

In an ideal world, however, I'd like to be able to get the first train northbound from London, so I think I'd rather this than an advance.

Or is there any fare combination that would allow me to see what's running, and then go home via Nottingham, Sheffield or Doncaster, as the mood takes me? I guess the £42.70 Anytime Short Return via ANY PERMITTED would allow travel GMB-NOT via Sheffield, but not via the ECML?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==


KLM quoted me 3 hours for the same reason for all international flights from Humberside International. It's 15 minutes drive, and from kerb through security and into the departure lounge in 5 minutes.

Trainsplit suggests a split at Lincoln:
Grimsby Town - Lincoln not via Doncaster off-peak return £23.60 (not valid to depart before 04:30)
Lincoln - London EMR only super off-peak return £71.50 (not valid to arrive St Pancras after 04:29 and before 11:26 on outbound; not valid to depart St Pancras after 04:29 and before 10:29 and after 15:15 and before 18:59)

 

[Watershed]

This is rather reassuring.

I've been looking at a different contingency.

0741 EMR Train from Grimsby to Nottingham, then the 0950 to St Pancras, arriving 1127.

Returning on the 1435 from St Pancras to Nottingham and then the 1634 to Grimsby arriving at 1829

Slightly more time on the train, slightly later arrival home, and slightly more expensive.

I believe with these timings I can split at Nottingham. I've got Anytime Return GMB-NOT via Lincoln for £35.70 and Super Offpeak Return NOT-STP for £70.60, so £106.30 in total. I haven't looked at advances yet.

Are the time restrictions for these tickets acceptable for the itinerary?

That's another option, and you've left plenty of time to change at Nottingham in case of a delay.

It would be slightly cheaper to split at Lincoln (£23.60 + £71.50) but this would restrict you to EMR only between Lincoln and London. So you may prefer to stick with your proposed split as it allows you to take the ECML to/from London, without needing to rely on ticket acceptance/re-routing, should the MML goes up the spout.

Another issue is that the 09:50 from Nottingham is, incredibly, 'too early' for the Super Off-Peak ticket to be valid (you can't arrive into St Pancras before 11:30). I think there has been a bit of an oversight on EMR's part here though - the same time restriction applies to the (regulated) Super Off-Peak Return from Kettering. Yet, this train calls at Kettering at 10:36, and regulated fares must be valid from 10:30 at the latest.

It might be worthwhile raising this one with EMR - although it's worth noting that they could just say they'll make an easement for passengers specifically travelling from Kettering, rather than changing the time restriction to a more sensible 'no arrival before 11:26'.

In an ideal world, however, I'd like to be able to get the first train northbound from London, so I think I'd rather this than an advance.

Or is there any fare combination that would allow me to see what's running, and then go home via Nottingham, Sheffield or Doncaster, as the mood takes me? I guess the £42.70 Anytime Short Return via ANY PERMITTED would allow travel GMB-NOT via Sheffield, but not via the ECML?

A reasonable point - however bear in mind that you wouldn't be able to take any train from St Pancras after the 15:35, until the 19:05. So in case of a long delay you may feel you have little choice but to upgrade to an Off-Peak Return to save you waiting around for hours.

The Any Permitted ticket to Nottingham is indeed valid via Sheffield but not via the ECML, as you correctly guessed. It would alternatively be valid via Brigg and Retford, but the service frequency on that line leaves something to be desired

Also, with the abolition of off-peak PAYG fares to/from Heathrow that took effect on Sunday, there's actually no longer any 'premium' for buying a through fare to London Underground Zones 1-6. That is, unless you're prepared to 'split' at Hatton Cross, which joined the Free Travel Area at the same time.

 

[DeeGee]

The Any Permitted ticket to Nottingham is indeed valid via Sheffield but not via the ECML, as you correctly guessed. It would alternatively be valid via Brigg and Retford, but the service frequency on that line leaves something to be desired

Also, with the abolition of off-peak PAYG fares to/from Heathrow that took effect on Sunday, there's actually no longer any 'premium' for buying a through fare to London Underground Zones 1-6. That is, unless you're prepared to 'split' at Hatton Cross, which joined the Free Travel Area at the same time.

I'm starting to think that the safest option is a return GMB-London Super Off-Peak return, get into London at 11:31 (and hope for the best getting home with regard to train times).

Obvs, if the TPE doesn't turn up I can get the EMR train to Newark Castle and hump my luggage up the Trent.

I'm relatively confident of getting the last suitable train back on Tuesday, my real concern is actually being able to travel earlier if I want.

Is it possible to get BR fares to show me the Underground 1-6 fare? And likewise, can I make the TPE mixing desk show it - I'd like to use my e-voucher so that's my preferred booking medium this time around.

Finally, what's the realistic difference in journey time between Kings Cross and T5 via Piccadilly Line vs Elizabeth Line and HEx?

 

[miklcct]

Finally, what's the realistic difference in journey time between Kings Cross and T5 via Piccadilly Line vs Elizabeth Line and HEx?

Piccadilly trains serve T5 every 9-11 minutes and takes 59 minutes according the official timetable, while Elizabeth line trains run every 30 minutes and take 37 minutes (the other half of the trains go to T2&3 then T4 where a free transfer can be made at T2&3), and Heathrow Express trains run every 15 minutes and take 21 minutes.

In order to get from Kings Cross to Paddington, you need to take a sub-surface line train which runs every 5 minutes and takes 10 minutes, so there is no significant difference overall between the tube and Elizabeth line. So I advise you to take the tube unless you are delayed significantly to warrant the Heathrow Express.

 

[_toommm_]

I'm starting to think that the safest option is a return GMB-London Super Off-Peak return, get into London at 11:31 (and hope for the best getting home with regard to train times).

Obvs, if the TPE doesn't turn up I can get the EMR train to Newark Castle and hump my luggage up the Trent.

I'm relatively confident of getting the last suitable train back on Tuesday, my real concern is actually being able to travel earlier if I want.

Is it possible to get BR fares to show me the Underground 1-6 fare? And likewise, can I make the TPE mixing desk show it - I'd like to use my e-voucher so that's my preferred booking medium this time around.

Finally, what's the realistic difference in journey time between Kings Cross and T5 via Piccadilly Line vs Elizabeth Line and HEx?

I believe these are the fares you want:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

When it comes to the TPE mixing deck, assuming the above is the right fare, enter your starting station as GMB and your destination as 0786 and it should come up.

MixingDeck

 

[Watershed]

I'm starting to think that the safest option is a return GMB-London Super Off-Peak return, get into London at 11:31 (and hope for the best getting home with regard to train times).

Obvs, if the TPE doesn't turn up I can get the EMR train to Newark Castle and hump my luggage up the Trent.

I'm relatively confident of getting the last suitable train back on Tuesday, my real concern is actually being able to travel earlier if I want.

Is it possible to get BR fares to show me the Underground 1-6 fare? And likewise, can I make the TPE mixing desk show it - I'd like to use my e-voucher so that's my preferred booking medium this time around.

Finally, what's the realistic difference in journey time between Kings Cross and T5 via Piccadilly Line vs Elizabeth Line and HEx?

I think that may be the safest option, yes - although it does of course come at an additional cost.

If you wanted to buy the through Underground fare, here is what it shows up as in BR Fares.

You should be able to book it through any online retailer. For MixingDeck based sites you'll want to enter 'London Underground Zones 1-6' as the destination.

The Piccadilly Line takes 59 minutes and runs every 10 minutes. So a generalised journey time of 64 minutes (based on the average wait time).

If you want to take the HEx, it's faster to take the Circle/H&C to Paddington, rather than Thameslink/Circle/H&C to Farringdon and then the Elizabeth Line. SSL trains should run every 5 minutes to Paddington (either station) and then the HEx is every 15 minutes.

HEx takes 21 minutes to T5, and the SSL takes 10 minutes to Paddington. If you allow 5 minutes to change at Paddington, your combined GJT is 46 minutes. Google Maps reckons you can make it in as little as 37 minutes if you're lucky, though.

If you do want to take the HEx you can either buy a through fare to Heathrow Rail, which is cheaper than using contactless/Oyster (there's a sizeable discount for getting a return ticket vs a single).

 

[Starmill]

If you want to see Grimsby Town to Heathrow Underground then the destination 0786 will work.

 

[Hadders]

If the LNER train calls at Stevenage (which I think it does) then I consider changing to Thameslink there (which is cross platform).

The Thameslink train will take you to Farringdon where you can access the Elizabeth Line via the lift from the platform.

 

[Metro95]

Have you considered going down a day early?

 

[DeeGee]

Have you considered going down a day early?

This was part of my calculations, yes. Going down a day early is one extra night that I don't see my kids, though. I was also considering travelling down after the kids' bedtimes and trying to stay up extra late to get ahead of the jetlag. Originally, before BA messed up my connecting flight from Manchester, it was all very straightforward...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

If the LNER train calls at Stevenage (which I think it does) then I consider changing to Thameslink there (which is cross platform).

The Thameslink train will take you to Farringdon where you can access the Elizabeth Line via the lift from the platform.

This would require a final ticket destination of Heathrow Rail, wouldn't it? It would be no good with either a Underground 1-6 or a London Terminals ticket, would it? So I couldn't really use it as contingency?

 

[Watershed]

This would require a final ticket destination of Heathrow Rail, wouldn't it? It would be no good with either a Underground 1-6 or a London Terminals ticket, would it? So I couldn't really use it as contingency?

A London Terminals ticket would be valid as far as London St Pancras. An Underground 1-6 ticket would be valid on Thameslink beyond St Pancras and on the EL Core, but obviously not on the Heathrow Express - nor (despite TfL's implication that the EL is a sort of Tube line) on the EL out to Heathrow.

That said, a Heathrow Rail ticket wouldn't be valid on the Underground. But it would be valid on Thameslink and EL (including out to Heathrow), being as it has cross-London validity.

 

[DeeGee]

A London Terminals ticket would be valid as far as London St Pancras. An Underground 1-6 ticket would be valid on Thameslink beyond St Pancras and on the EL Core, but obviously not on the Heathrow Express - nor (despite TfL's implication that the EL is a sort of Tube line) on the EL out to Heathrow.

That said, a Heathrow Rail ticket wouldn't be valid on the Underground. But it would be valid on Thameslink and EL (including out to Heathrow), being as it has cross-London validity.

Is Heathrow Rail valid via both EL and HEx?

 

[Watershed]

Is Heathrow Rail valid via both EL and HEx?

Yes. Though if you use it on EL you've rather overpaid! And even if you just miss a HEx - if the next HEx is running, you'd still be better off taking that than the next EL service.

 

[DeeGee]

Yes. Though if you use it on EL you've rather overpaid!

So, contactless on EL?

Have I understood correctly, it's £12.80 contactless to Heathrow by EL, so £25.40 return? And £5.50 (so £9 return) on Piccadilly Line, but cheaper if I bail out at Hatton Cross, touch out and back in?

And I'm getting a bargain price of £36 return on the HEx.

I'll have a look and see how that compares with the through fare. I think the benefit of the Piccadilly Line is not having to change trains, so doing the Hatton dance will rather lose that benefit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

...

So I've had a look at the Mixing Desk on TPE, and they won't sell me a £107.70 Super-Offpeak return (or the same ticket from Heathrow Rail, or Underground 1-6) using the 14:56 from KGX because they claim it's operator restricted LNER and TPE only. The 14:56 is a Hull trains service.

I believe this is a mistake, is it? I can take any train leaving London before 1500, can't I?

Also, while I'm asking, the SSR is not permitted to depart Cleethorpes before 08:27. There is no similar text from Grimsby Town. Does that mean I can't use an earlier train out of Grimsby and then loiter with intent around Doncaster until the first train with an arrival time after 1117 appears?

 

[Watershed]

So, contactless on EL?

Have I understood correctly, it's £12.80 contactless to Heathrow by EL, so £25.40 return?

Correct. As with the Underground, it's now cheaper to "split" (e.g. at Hayes & Harlington). But contactless/Oyster is the cheapest option if this is how you want to do it. You could also take a bus from Hayes & Harlington, which would be £1.65 extra, but that doesn't really make sense given the alternative of the Piccadilly line.

And £5.50 (so £9 return) on Piccadilly Line, but cheaper if I bail out at Hatton Cross, touch out and back in?

Correct, although 2× £5.50 is £11 in my book If you touch out and back in at Hatton Cross it's £3.40 off-peak each way, so a total of £6.80.

And I'm getting a bargain price of £36 return on the HEx.

Yes - if you book a little further in advance it can cost as "little" as £7.50 one way. But there's little discount even a month ahead. The inclusive fare to Heathrow Rail is £42 so it's barely worth splitting (the Underground to Paddington would be £2.50 single).

I'll have a look and see how that compares with the through fare. I think the benefit of the Piccadilly Line is not having to change trains, so doing the Hatton dance will rather lose that benefit.

True, but bear in mind that if you see a Terminal 4 Tube due, you're not losing any time by catching that and then changing for the Terminal 5 train immediately behind at Hatton Cross.

So I've had a look at the Mixing Desk on TPE, and they won't sell me a £107.70 Super-Offpeak return (or the same ticket from Heathrow Rail, or Underground 1-6) using the 14:56 from KGX because they claim it's operator restricted LNER and TPE only. The 14:56 is a Hull trains service.

Bizarre. I can't find any electronic data restriction that would explain why this is happening. The 14:56 is a Grand Central service as it happens, but either way it should be offering the Super Off-Peak Return on it.

I believe this is a mistake, is it? I can take any train leaving London before 1500, can't I?

Correct. It's a regulated fare so it cannot have restrictions leaving London between 10:30 and 14:59.

Also, while I'm asking, the SSR is not permitted to depart Cleethorpes before 08:27. There is no similar text from Grimsby Town. Does that mean I can't use an earlier train out of Grimsby and then loiter with intent around Doncaster until the first train with an arrival time after 1117 appears?

That's something which only appears in the electronic data; the text makes no mention of it. It's one of a series of mysterious restrictions that would seem to have been added in the interests of TPE (along with restrictions at Newcastle, Leeds, Durham etc.). If LNER/TPE want these to be enforceable, they should put something in the restriction text wording! @Haywain?

 

[Tallguy]

I know this route as I used to have a girlfriend in Grimsby

Personally, I would look at a one way car rental or go down to London the day before, you have got multiple connections with a lot of variables on a time restricted schedule. There are a lot of problems on the trains at present. Hopefully your travel insurance will cover you for failure of public transport If it all goes Pete Tong And you miss the flight

 

[Dave91131]

I know this route as I used to have a girlfriend in Grimsby

Personally, I would look at a one way car rental or go down to London the day before, you have got multiple connections with a lot of variables on a time restricted schedule. There are a lot of problems on the trains at present. Hopefully your travel insurance will cover you for failure of public transport If it all goes Pete Tong And you miss the flight

+1. Go by road and forget the railway.

 

[DeeGee]

+1. Go by road and forget the railway.

I recognise this, but I'm desperately trying to avoid having to travel down the night before. One way car rental is £180+ petrol, so that's a fair old chunk of money as well.

{EDIT} Although that said, I've now booked a hotel for the night before.

I've just played about with timings on NRE to allow me an hour to change at DON. That's now letting me use a Super Offpeak to take the 0735 from GMB subject to my sitting around at DON to wait for the 0948 to KGX - arriving 1131, so about 1245-ish to Heathrow. I presume because its only restriction is the arrival time in London.

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That gives me an additional buffer if I so wish.

I hope that, given that I'm not looking at an Advance ticket, waiting until a little while before to make a decision will be enough. When do they publish the known cancellations for the next day?

 

[Puffing Devil]

What have BA offered you as an alternative? It's their responsibility to fix the cancellation of their flight?