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Cyclists - your experiences on the road

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Techniquest

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I am sorry to hear that a select group of poor mannered cyclists caused you (rightly) to be aggrevated. I'd be fuming too. Please don't forget we're not all like that! People like these ones, they remind me of boy racers quite honestly.

The best way to look at it right now is that karma and any other divine forces will catch up with them at some point. Even if it's just by causing a flat at an awkward time!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I am sorry to hear that a select group of poor mannered cyclists caused you (rightly) to be aggrevated. I'd be fuming too. Please don't forget we're not all like that! People like these ones, they remind me of boy racers quite honestly.

They were all twentysomething or thirtysomething males, no doubt full of testosterone, the kind that tend to give cyclists a bad name in London too. I too cycle and don't do this to people - if a close pass can't be avoided I ring my bell, make sure they've seen and slow right down to little more than walking pace.
 

JohnMcL7

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How can the cycling lobby be taken seriously if they are unable to behave correctly themselves? As a cyclist, pedestrian and driver I utterly despair.
Because the cycling lobby are not a singular group of people, it's one of the most diverse groups there are on the road since it's one of the most accessible forms of transport. Anything that happens with a car that individual driver is seen as responsible for but anything an individual cyclist instead it's the entire cycling community that are responsible. As a driver do you utterly despair that 70 people every day are killed or seriously injured by other drivers? This idea that 100 percent of cyclists must all cycle perfectly before cycling will be accepted is just so bizarre when the same benchmark is applied nowhere else especially given cyclists are responsible for causing a tiny fraction of deaths and serious injuries on the road.

I'm not in any way excusing these cyclists who sound like assholes it's just I don't get why cycling in general gets the blame, not the individuals responsible.
 

Techniquest

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They were all twentysomething or thirtysomething males, no doubt full of testosterone, the kind that tend to give cyclists a bad name in London too. I too cycle and don't do this to people - if a close pass can't be avoided I ring my bell, make sure they've seen and slow right down to little more than walking pace.

They are the sort who give all of us a bad name, and I suspect you're right that they'll be pumped full of testosterone. Downright idiotic behaviour, like I say it'll catch up with them one way or another. We'll never know how or when, but it'll happen.

You have also reminded me that I want to get to St Ives some time with my Blue Beauty, although not until I've got the Cornwall map so I can highlight the coverage on it. That map is getting ordered in a few days time, same for the North Devon map for that matter. I haven't been to St Ives (Cornwall) for almost exactly 17 years!
 

Bletchleyite

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Anything that happens with a car that individual driver is seen as responsible for but anything an individual cyclist instead it's the entire cycling community that are responsible.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Many of the vocal campaigners are totally anti car.

As a driver do you utterly despair that 70 people every day are killed or seriously injured by other drivers?

Yes, I do have an issue with bad driving, in particular failures to drive defensively.

This idea that 100 percent of cyclists must all cycle perfectly before cycling will be accepted is just so bizarre when the same benchmark is applied nowhere else especially given cyclists are responsible for causing a tiny fraction of deaths and serious injuries on the road.

I'm not in any way excusing these cyclists who sound like assholes it's just I don't get why cycling in general gets the blame, not the individuals responsible.

It just seems that antisocial cycling is way, way too common, mostly by the 20s-30s male age group in lycra on fancy road bikes. I think the behaviour of a lot of that group seriously discredit cycling.

No doubt a lot of them, after their ride, load their bike into an SUV and go and close pass other cyclists using it... :)
 

JohnMcL7

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It just seems that antisocial cycling is way, way too common, mostly by the 20s-30s male age group in lycra on fancy road bikes. I think the behaviour of a lot of that group seriously discredit cycling.

No doubt a lot of them, after their ride, load their bike into an SUV and go and close pass other cyclists using it... :)

Not my experience at all, I've cycled with a number of different road cyclist groups and while I don't like their more performance focused riding they'd be appalled at the brush you're indiscriminately tarring them all with although perhaps as cyclists they're used to having to take the blame for everyone else. I think this group are the biggest punching bad for cyclists just because they're the most distinctive, there's plenty other bad cyclists out there but just not as distinctive.

As I said, when there's one group killing and seriously injuring large numbers of people every day and one group doing almost none of that it's just totally bizarre to have such a disproportionate focus on the latter.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I said, when there's one group killing and seriously injuring large numbers of people every day and one group doing almost none of that it's just totally bizarre to have such a disproportionate focus on the latter.

This is normally the excuse for not talking about bad cyclist behaviour, and frankly it is garbage. It is like saying we shouldn't moan about petty crime when people are being knifed, and that's tripe too. All bad behaviour should be called out. I find it interesting that many of the Twitter videos show cyclists failing to cycle defensively (e.g. filtering at high speed; filtering is legal but should be done at very low speed with preparedness to stop immediately if necessary) thus their behaviour being contributory to the incident.

Again, I am a cyclist and am utterly fed up with my name being darkened by poor cycling. If your group would be offended then they clearly need to re-evaluate how they use the road, if they don't behave badly then it clearly isn't aimed at them and they shouldn't be so touchy!
 

Haywain

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You have also reminded me that I want to get to St Ives some time with my Blue Beauty, although not until I've got the Cornwall map so I can highlight the coverage on it. That map is getting ordered in a few days time, same for the North Devon map for that matter. I haven't been to St Ives (Cornwall) for almost exactly 17 years!
I don’t think a Cornwall map will be much use at the St Ives that @Bletchleyite was visiting :D
 

TheBigD

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You have also reminded me that I want to get to St Ives some time with my Blue Beauty, although not until I've got the Cornwall map so I can highlight the coverage on it. That map is getting ordered in a few days time, same for the North Devon map for that matter. I haven't been to St Ives (Cornwall) for almost exactly 17 years!

Wrong St Ives!!! You're about 350 miles out!!!
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Great numbers of cyclists of whatever sort break the law.

Just as huge numbers of drivers do, the latter with far more serious consequences.

I think the situation is getting worse with cheap racing bikes and €bikes. (speed!)

Mixing strolling families with children, dogs with cyclists is crazy.

I think fast cyclists should use the road.
 

Magdalia

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I think the situation is getting worse with cheap racing bikes and €bikes. (speed!)
Legal ebikes only have powered assistance up to 15mph/25kph. That's within the range of speeds attained by most pedal cyclists. It is quite hard to ride a legal ebike faster than 15mph/25kph, except down a steep hill, because of the extra weight of the motor and battery.

Ebikes that have powered assistance above 15mph/25kph are motorbikes.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Legal €bikes? There are plenty of illegal ones!

The point of €bikes is to go faster.*

On paths used by children, dogs, disabled people, or anywhere else, increasing speed increases danger. Often 15kmh by riders who could not reach that speed by muscle power is much too fast. Not to mention the acceleration, and increased weight/momentum!
Another parallel with driving: €bikes greatly increase chances to break the law. I think anything with a motor is not a cycle.

* actually the point is also to make money by selling people €bikes for thousands where a conventional cycle for a few hundred would be appropriate.
 
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Magdalia

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Went for a "walk out, bus back" on the St Ives Busway earlier. During this despite walking well over to one side I was close passed at speed by four separate cyclists. In no case was there any oncoming traffic so they had plenty of room to pass much wider. All were adult male "proper cyclists" on decent road bikes, not kids mucking about. One was so close he almost knocked me over, but all were way too close for their speed.

What on earth gives? Cyclists rightly campaign for cars not to close pass them, then four of them - four rank hypocrites - close passed a pedestrian.
The misguided busway is a very peculiar environment and I think it is important not to generalise on the basis of one particular experience in that very peculiar environment.

The footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway were not part of the original design. They were added to stop both pedestrians and cyclists from using the busway itself. The busway is mostly built on old railway tracks, with an alignment to match. The footpaths/cycleways can be very busy with a mix of pedestrians and cyclists, and are not really wide enough for the level of traffic. Pedestrians using the busway frequently mostly know that they have to keep an eye and ear out for cyclists: there's lots of them and some will be moving quite fast because of the railway alignment. For pedestrians it is more like walking in a road than on a footpath and needs to be treated as such.

I use the footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway quite frequently. In my experience pedestrian behaviour is just as big a danger as cyclists. That includes groups walking three or four abreast blocking room for passing, and people immersed in their phones/music and unable to walk in a straight line. Cyclists using the busway frequently mostly know that they need to anticipate such behaviour.

The very peculiar environment has turned out to be quite dangerous, with 2 fatalities on the southern section where people (one cyclist and one pedestrian) have fallen into the path of oncoming buses. Nobody knows how many people have stepped/fallen into the busway without catastrophic consequences. I avoid using the footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway at times when I anticipate that they will be busy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The point of €bikes is to go faster.*
No it isn't. Ebikes don't go faster, they make it easier to ride at the same speed. The main advantages of ebikes are:

  • people with heart and lung health issues can ride an ebike but not a pedal bike
  • people can ride an ebike without breaking sweat, which is particularly important for travel to work
  • people can ride an ebike up hills and bridges without having to get off and push
For speeds above 15mph/25kph a light pedal bike is much more suitable than an ebike, which is too heavy for speed.
 
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johncrossley

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The point of €bikes is to go faster.*

On paths used by children, dogs, disabled people, or anywhere else, increasing speed increases danger. Often 15kmh by riders who could not reach that speed by muscle power is much too fast. Not to mention the acceleration, and increased weight/momentum!
Another parallel with driving: €bikes greatly increase chances to break the law. I think anything with a motor is not a cycle.

* actually the point is also to make money by selling people €bikes for thousands where a conventional cycle for a few hundred would be appropriate.

You talk a lot about e-bikes, but have you actually ridden one? Anyone who has knows they are heavy and slow compared to most other bikes. Their main advantages are the ability to go further without getting tired or sweaty and to be able to get up hills easily. That potentially opens up Dutch style mass cycling to all areas, not just flat ones.
 

Bletchleyite

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The misguided busway is a very peculiar environment and I think it is important not to generalise on the basis of one particular experience in that very peculiar environment.

It's an environment with which I am quite familiar, being similar to a Milton Keynes Redway. Yes, those don't have buses down one side, but some do have an equivalent (arguably worse) risk of falling onto a 70mph dual carriageway.

The footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway were not part of the original design. They were added to stop both pedestrians and cyclists from using the busway itself. The busway is mostly built on old railway tracks, with an alignment to match. The footpaths/cycleways can be very busy with a mix of pedestrians and cyclists, and are not really wide enough for the level of traffic. Pedestrians using the busway frequently mostly know that they have to keep an eye and ear out for cyclists: there's lots of them and some will be moving quite fast because of the railway alignment. For pedestrians it is more like walking in a road than on a footpath and needs to be treated as such.

Of course I would not consider a close, high speed pass appropriate if I was walking on a country lane. It sounds like you're justifying making close passes at speed. This cannot be justified under any circumstances, just like cars doing so to cycles cannot; if there's not space then it's necessary to slow, ring one's bell (or shout if one doesn't have one) and pass at little more than walking pace, just as if there's not space for a car to pass a cyclist at a minimum of 1.5m spacing then they should slow right down to make a closer pass safer*, or in some cases not pass at all until there is space.

Interestingly the MK Redway Code specifically states they should be used "as you would use a traffic-free country lane".

It was the hypocrisy here that got me. The lycra-clad campaigners rightly complain about cars close-passing, then they do it to pedestrians...

I use the footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway quite frequently. In my experience pedestrian behaviour is just as big a danger as cyclists. That includes groups walking three or four abreast blocking room for passing, and people immersed in their phones/music and unable to walk in a straight line. Cyclists using the busway frequently mostly know that they need to anticipate such behaviour.

True of the Redways too, however I was walking all the way to one side, so the cyclists involved had a good 2 metres of space. Even if they were using the "primary position" the pass would have allowed a 1m spacing.

The very peculiar environment has turned out to be quite dangerous, with 2 fatalities on the southern section where people (one cyclist and one pedestrian) have fallen into the path of oncoming buses. Nobody knows how many people have stepped/fallen into the busway without catastrophic consequences. I avoid using the footpaths/cycleways adjacent to the busway at times when I anticipate that they will be busy.

They weren't particularly busy to be fair.

* Some "militant cyclists" don't think the car should pass at all if 1.5m isn't possible. It probably shouldn't overtake, but this rather disregards passing oncoming traffic on single track roads, where the right thing to do is for both parties to do their best to accommodate the other in less than ideal circumstances.
 

Magdalia

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It's an environment with which I am quite familiar, being similar to a Milton Keynes Redway. Yes, those don't have buses down one side, but some do have an equivalent (arguably worse) risk of falling onto a 70mph dual carriageway.
My familiarity with the MK Redways is limited, though I have more familiarity with the similar cycleways in Stevenage. I don't see them as being similar to the busway, because of the railway alignment, the level of usage, and the lack of space between the footpath/cycleway and the busway. My recollection is that the Redways usually have a grass verge between them and the dual carriageways?

Of course I would not consider a close, high speed pass appropriate if I was walking on a country lane. It sounds like you're justifying making close passes at speed.
No, I'm not advocating that.

Interestingly the MK Redway Code specifically states they should be used "as you would use a traffic-free country lane".
I didn't know that there was an MK Redway Code, and I'm not aware that the Busway has anything similar. Perhaps a Cambridge Busway Code is needed.

where the right thing to do is for both parties to do their best to accommodate the other in less than ideal circumstances.
Absolutely!
 

Bletchleyite

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My recollection is that the Redways usually have a grass verge between them and the dual carriageways?

Normally either they do, or an Armco, or they're not with the road at all, but a few are very close with no protection. However I suspect going into a thorny, nettle-ridden hedge is just as uncomfortable as falling on the Busway, provided no actual bus is coming!

The vast majority of the Busway path would meet Redway spec, FWIW (minimum 2m wide).
 

Techniquest

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I don’t think a Cornwall map will be much use at the St Ives that @Bletchleyite was visiting :D

Wrong St Ives!!! You're about 350 miles out!!!

Oops! Mis-read the gentleman of MKC South's post! Thank you both for pointing that out :oops:

I did the St Ives Busway cycle path last year, thankfully on a weekday in October so it was nice and quiet. On a sunny summer Saturday, I can only imagine how busy it must get!

These MK Redways, from the sounds of it, are worth avoiding! I've limited time this morning, so not read all of that discussion, but the skim-read suggested they should be good but aren't.

As for the gentleman who suggested many cyclists should be on the road, that's what I aim for more often than anything else. Shared-use paths are incredibly handy in some places, such as between northerly Wolverhampton and Penkridge, of which I have opinions that aren't glowing in positivity. I'd still use the bits that are of decent quality, granted, for connecting into country lanes to other places, but that path alongside the A449 stops all of a sudden which is really not helpful! I'm surprised I didn't do a trip report actually for that day!

I like road cycling more than shared-use paths, in general, although my ride yesterday was on such paths in places.
 

Bletchleyite

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The Redways are better than anything the UK generally has, but not anywhere near to Dutch standards. They absolutely are not suitable for high speed riding using a road bike - such cyclists are better off on the road. They are really designed more for low speed (10mph or so) utility cycling using something more Dutch-looking. The majority of users use either that sort of hybrid or a cheap mountain bike (the latter mostly kids and the likes of warehouse workers riding to work as they don't drive).
 

dcbwhaley

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Legal €bikes? There are plenty of illegal ones!

The point of €bikes is to go faster.*
Not so. The point of eBikes is to make cycling easier, to flatten hills. On my eBike I can ride up steep hills as easily as I used to in my prime.
What I can't do on my eBike, that I could do in my prime, is ride for 25miles at 25mph
 

LSWR Cavalier

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You talk a lot about e-bikes, but have you actually ridden one? Anyone who has knows they are heavy and slow compared to most other bikes. Their main advantages are the ability to go further without getting tired or sweaty and to be able to get up hills easily. That potentially opens up Dutch style mass cycling to all areas, not just flat ones.
Yes I have tried one, it tried to whiz off, frightening. Heavy €bikes are just not the thing for older people who may not be able to handle them.

As for having a motor NOT being about going faster: I really shall have to puzzle over that one.

I certainly do not want 'Dutch cycling conditions where I live, not for a few years at least, until motor traffic is reduced and separated cycle ways are built. I think I prefer my rides now on inadequate cycleways, but where I see few other cyclists.

Instead of €bikes people should try light conventional cycles, maybe just with low gears.

Sooner or later one has to give up cycling. There are a couple of elderly cyclists near me who go at balancing speed, very slow. I am glad to wait behind them. I just hope they do not "upgrade" to ebike$.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sooner or later one has to give up cycling. There are a couple of elderly cyclists near me who go at balancing speed, very slow. I am glad to wait behind them. I just hope they do not "upgrade" to ebike$.

Why? Years ago we converted my Grandad's old boneshaker (I think dating back to the 50s) so he could continue to go to his allotment once he had to stop driving (there wasn't a suitable bus route). It was great for him. He used it for most of his remaining years until too infirm to go out at all.

Obviously you don't like them, which is fine, don't buy one, I don't want one either. I just don't get why you have such a hate of them.
 

Magdalia

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Instead of €bikes people should try light conventional cycles, maybe just with low gears.
That's what I was riding for many years. But my heart is now so feeble that I can only use it for short journeys with no hills.

As for having a motor NOT being about going faster: I really shall have to puzzle over that one.
It is quite simple. With the motor I can cycle much longer distances and go uphill without getting off to push.

On longer and hillier journeys the motor is the difference between going or staying at home.

Sooner or later one has to give up cycling
With an ebike it is later, with a pedal bike it is sooner. Before I got the ebike I was about to give up cycling, now I can see myself continuing for a few years yet.
 

TheBigD

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Having cycled the (mis)Guided Busway multiple times, it is certainly a popular route for both cyclists and pedestrians.

My main gripe with the route is that at weekends it gets too busy, and that a lot of the pedestrians are either looking at their phones, blocking the path by walking 3 or 4 abreast, or my personal bugbear, the bloody extendable dog lead across the path. You also tend to get a small minority certain type of pedestrian who seems to think that that bikes shouldn't really be there at all and will purposely slow you down or try to obstruct you, followed by the usual tut-tutting as you go by.

I've found that in the week most users generally don't have an issue with each other as the route is less busy.

There's some cracking times on strava for those that fancy a challenge!
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure that they will give your pronouncement the appropriate level of respect.

Another cyclist who encourages behaviour that damages the reputation of cyclists by way of wilfully inconsiderate use of shared facilities. This is very much noted. This sort of behaviour is what causes calls for more legal restrictions on cycling, and leans me - as a cyclist - towards supporting them.

If you think racing in busy areas is appropriate, then you are part of the problem.
 
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