Is the London ULEZ expansion a good idea and should the specification be changed?

[cactustwirly]

How would that increase the cost effective lifespan of a car, or change it's emissions to be ULEZ compliant?

mods note - split from here.

ULEZ has nothing to do with CO2.
It prioritises old CO2 producing petrols over modern diesels which produce less CO2

It forces people to prematurely scrap perfectly good cars, which creates more CO2

 

[Bletchleyite]

ULEZ has nothing to do with CO2.
It prioritises old CO2 producing petrols over modern diesels which produce less CO2

It forces people to prematurely scrap perfectly good cars, which creates more CO2

ULEZ is about NOx and particulates which are really, really bad in urban areas with lots of people and are implicated in all manner of things like asthma and other respiratory illnesses, and thus are a priority over CO2. It's the same reason why it is still worth using EVs in cities even if they are powered from a coal fired power station in the middle of nowhere.

The "perfectly good" cars don't need to be scrapped and won't be scrapped, they are sold to people who live in rural areas where NOx and particulates are not much of a concern. The ones being scrapped are knackered.

 

[cactustwirly]

ULEZ is about NOx and particulates which are really, really bad in urban areas with lots of people and are implicated in all manner of things like asthma and other respiratory illnesses, and thus are a priority over CO2. It's the same reason why it is still worth using EVs in cities even if they are powered from a coal fired power station in the middle of nowhere.

The "perfectly good" cars don't need to be scrapped and won't be scrapped, they are sold to people who live in rural areas where NOx and particulates are not much of a concern. The ones being scrapped are knackered.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Aug 2022 ==



Mine was set to 21 degrees all day and 16 degrees overnight (though it rarely actually drops that far). I've reduced it to 19 to save cost and will put an extra jumper on, but yes, I work on the basis of a constant temperature when I'm in except at night. I use a Tado system so if I go out it allows it to drop and brings it back up as I start moving towards home again.

I think that approach provides a better comfort-cost ratio than blasting to 22 twice a day for a couple of hours as many do.

My car doesn't make any particulates but still is penalised. What's the point of having an EGR valve and DPF if it doesn't gain you anything? I would be better off getting rid as lots of people do. And save myself lots of hassle and expense.

It would be fairer if the minimum was Euro 5 for both petrol and diesel.

It's very hypro critical as the vehicles that produce all the particulates are still permitted, ie great big buses and trucks.

The figures show that the extended ULEZ zone has done absolutely nothing for emissions. And if it gets extended again it will just penalise the poor who can't afford a Euro 6 car

 

[Bletchleyite]

My car doesn't make any particulates but still is penalised. What's the point of having an EGR valve and DPF if it doesn't gain you anything?

EGR and DPF do not prevent particulate emissions. They just reduce them. If yours isn't Euro 6 then your particulate emissions are too high.

It would be fairer if the minimum was Euro 5 for both petrol and diesel.

It wouldn't, because the particulate and NOx standards are different between petrol and diesel cars.

It's very hypro critical as the vehicles that produce all the particulates are still permitted, ie great big buses and trucks.

No, these have to comply to the same standards, and the TfL bus fleet will increasingly be full-electric.

The figures show that the extended ULEZ zone has done absolutely nothing for emissions.

What figures, can you provide a reputable reference? (For the record, the right wing Press, i.e. the Mail/Express/Scum/Torygraph/GB News or similar is not "reputable"; a source like TfL would do).

And if it gets extended again it will just penalise the poor who can't afford a Euro 6 car

Compliant petrol cars are very cheap. Euro 4 petrol, which is the standard, became mandatory from 2005. Any non compliant petrol car is seventeen years old - hardly anything of that age bar classics is still on the road, and as classics are really just for occasional use you'll just pay the charge for those. £500 will probably buy you a compliant small petrol car, or certainly £1000.

 

[tomuk]

Compliant petrol cars are very cheap. Euro 4 petrol, which is the standard, became mandatory from 2005. Any non compliant petrol car is seventeen years old - hardly anything of that age bar classics is still on the road, and as classics are really just for occasional use you'll just pay the charge for those. £500 will probably buy you a compliant small petrol car, or certainly £1000.

And has likely terrible fuel economy, the whole Nox and Pms is hysteria, the tens of thousands of deaths is media interpreted nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And has likely terrible fuel economy, the whole Nox and Pms is hysteria

It's really not. It's implicated widely for the massive increase in asthma, for example.

A small petrol car driven carefully should easily do well over 40-50mpg. As petrol is considerably cheaper than diesel this will even out for a typical 50-60mpg diesel.

 

[cactustwirly]

EGR and DPF do not prevent particulate emissions. They just reduce them. If yours isn't Euro 6 then your particulate emissions are too high.



It wouldn't, because the particulate and NOx standards are different between petrol and diesel cars.



No, these have to comply to the same standards, and the TfL bus fleet will increasingly be full-electric.



What figures, can you provide a reputable reference? (For the record, the right wing Press, i.e. the Mail/Express/Scum/Torygraph/GB News or similar is not "reputable"; a source like TfL would do).



Compliant petrol cars are very cheap. Euro 4 petrol, which is the standard, became mandatory from 2005. Any non compliant petrol car is seventeen years old - hardly anything of that age bar classics is still on the road, and as classics are really just for occasional use you'll just pay the charge for those. £500 will probably buy you a compliant small petrol car, or certainly £1000.

That's just rubbish, a Euro 5 diesel produces the same amount of particulates as a Euro 6.

There is only a slight reduction of NOx emissions compared to a Euro 5. In the real world it's a negligible amount as manufacturers such as VW used cheat device's to get through the tests anyway.

Because of government tax incentives the vast majority of cars built before 2015 are diesel. When I was looking for my car I only saw a handful of Petrol cars compared to 50 or so diesels. Unless you get a Corsa, you are practically forced to get a diesel for nay sort of estate or family car.

So someone in the outer zones has to pay significantly more road and fuel costs for a tiny reduction in NOx emissions, while is eclipsed by all the emissions produced by trucks and buses.

 

[tomuk]

It's really not. It's implicated widely for the massive increase in asthma, for example.

Lot's of things have been implicated in various heath issues. Can excessive Nox and Pm cause heath issues yes. Are these issues necessarily acute in nature no. Are levels of Nox and Pm excessive everywhere No. Not everywhere is the Marylebone Road.

British Lung foundation says of Asthma:

This does not mean that there are 8 million people living with the condition, however. Many children diagnosed with asthma grow out of it. Asthma UK states that around 5.4 million people receive treatment for the disease. Research has also suggested asthma maybe considerably over-diagnosed.

A small petrol car driven carefully should easily do well over 40-50mpg. As petrol is considerably cheaper than diesel this will even out for a typical 50-60mpg diesel.

How carefully and how small? Not too long ago I did a 300 mile round trip in an up to date 3 cylinder petrol turbo 1L Kia thing. The MPG was no better at about 38mpg than my LWB diesel VW Transporter Van on the same journey. Cost isn't everything what about the climate crisis?

 

[87 027]

I note that for the French low emission scheme Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesels both have the same rating - Crit'air category 2 (the yellow sticker)

 

[Ted633]

I'm going to be affected by this (82 mile round trip commute to Heathrow, public transport is a non-starter)
My car is Euro 5 so will be banned next August. It achieves 70mpg, cheap to insure & run and is very reliable. However, it has over 200,000 miles on the clock so is practically worthless on the 2nd hand market. (it would almost certainly go for scrap)

So what are my options.

1 - Buy nearly new Diesel or electric and keep my running costs low. However, cars like these command high prices due to the shortage of new cars. I'd be looking at well over 10k.

2 - Buy an older petrol and put up with higher fuel and tax costs. In todays market, even a 15 year old petrol hatchback can command prices approaching 2k

3 - Get a motorbike. (M25 rush hour commute, not really a good idea)

4 - Pay £12.50 a day (~£2300 per year)

All of the above are going to cost me a significant amount of money, either a lump sum or accumulating costs. This is at a time when there is a cost of living crisis and people don't have the money to upgrade there perfectly good cars because Mr. Khan says so.
People like myself don't drive around in non-compliant cars because we want to pollute the atmosphere. It's because it's all we can afford.

What's the answer? I think at the very least it needs to be delayed or changed to Euro 5 until living costs have settled back down and people are more able to afford a change of vehicle.



As an aside, my current car does meet Euro 6 standards for particulates (0.003 ppm compared to the 0.005 limit). However, it is the NoX that lets it down. By how much, I've not been able to deduce.

 

[2192]

...What's the point of having an EGR valve and DPF if it doesn't gain you anything?...

What's EGR and DPF?

 

[paul1609]

EGR and DPF do not prevent particulate emissions. They just reduce them. If yours isn't Euro 6 then your particulate emissions are too high.

Sorry you are incorrect. Euro 5 and 6 particulate standards are the same. The difference between 5 and 6 is lower NOx emissions which may require ad blue.
The ULEZ zones for Frankfurt, Paris and Brussels allow Euro 5 diesel engines as compliant.
Road transport is no longer the largest contributor to particulate pollution in London. Log burners are particularly high contributors. The most polluted public areas for particulates are several central tube stations.

 

[cactustwirly]

What's EGR and DPF?

Diesel Particulate Filter and Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve.

The EGR recycles the exhaust gas which lowers the engine temperature and reduces NOx. All Euro 5 engines have them, most Euro 6 engines just increase the air flow of the EGR to meet the emissions.

I could remap my E5 to do the same, but the DVLA and TFL won't recognize it.

I could also take my Euro 6 and blank off the EGR as they cause a lot of expensive problems. The EGR isn't tested at the MOT so it's still technically ULEZ compliant.
Same with a DPF, you can gut the inside and no one would know come MOT time as long as it's physically there and isn't obviously tampered with.

 

[E27007]

Diesel Particulate Filter and Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve.

The EGR recycles the exhaust gas which lowers the engine temperature and reduces NOx. All Euro 5 engines have them, most Euro 6 engines just increase the air flow of the EGR to meet the emissions.

I could remap my E5 to do the same, but the DVLA and TFL won't recognize it.

I could also take my Euro 6 and blank off the EGR as they cause a lot of expensive problems. The EGR isn't tested at the MOT so it's still technically ULEZ compliant.
Same with a DPF, you can gut the inside and no one would know come MOT time as long as it's physically there and isn't obviously tampered with.

The MoT test measures the smoke in the exhaust flow, it does not measure the level of Nox in the exhaust gas, the MoT test can be bluffed by vehicles with blanked off EGR valves and DPFs which have been gutted internally. It is however an offence to use such vehicles with those modifications on public roads. The offence is against Construction and Use Laws for motor vehicles, and possibly fraud to present the vehicle for an MoT test. The use of Remaps of the ECU is also a risk of prosecution.

 

[cactustwirly]

The MoT test measures the smoke in the exhaust flow, it does not measure the level of Nox in the exhaust gas, the MoT test can be bluffed by vehicles with blanked off EGR valves and DPFs which have been gutted internally. It is however an offence to use such vehicles with those modifications on public roads. The offence is against Construction and Use Laws for motor vehicles, and possibly fraud to present the vehicle for an MoT test. The use of Remaps of the ECU is also a risk of prosecution.

Oh yes the construction and use regulations, in practice there is no enforcement of this. Lots of vehicles around with aftermarket exhaust etc.

Why would you be prosecuted for an ECU remap?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry you are incorrect. Euro 5 and 6 particulate standards are the same. The difference between 5 and 6 is lower NOx emissions which may require ad blue.

AdBlue isn't the only option. My Kuga is Euro 6 and does not use AdBlue (they also have a model that does with a larger engine). I forget how it does do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

Road transport is no longer the largest contributor to particulate pollution in London.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce it. This is the "but China" argument.

Log burners are particularly high contributors.

Isn't London a smokeless zone? Enforce that.

The most polluted public areas for particulates are several central tube stations.

You don't spend your whole day on a Tube station (unless you work there, and I'd say the Unions should be very interested in that!)

 

[Shimbleshanks]

One thing I've tried and failed to get an answer on is whether my 2004 VW Polo, which currently complies with the ULEZ limits, will continue to do so in future - or are they changing the actual ULEZ emissions limits? My garage guy reckons that it won't comply, but other people say it will.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I've tried and failed to get an answer on is whether my 2004 VW Polo, which currently complies with the ULEZ limits, will continue to do so in future - or are they changing the actual ULEZ emissions limits? My garage guy reckons that it won't comply, but other people say it will.

It is likely the limits will tighten over time, with plenty of notice. The "end game" will be a ZEZ i.e. EV and hydrogen only, PHEVs allowed but only in electric mode.

The upcoming, published change is that the ULEZ will cover the whole of Greater London at the current ULEZ spec.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

What's the answer? I think at the very least it needs to be delayed or changed to Euro 5 until living costs have settled back down and people are more able to afford a change of vehicle.

I think a temporary, timeboxed change to Euro 5 for the expanded zone (not central London) would be reasonable. Perhaps 2028 would be reasonable to allow things to settle down in the car market.

You're very lucky having a car with 200K miles on it that doesn't cost you more to keep running for such heavy use than buying something newer! It's not unlikely that in another 5 years that luck will run out.

 

[E27007]

Oh yes the construction and use regulations, in practice there is no enforcement of this. Lots of vehicles around with aftermarket exhaust etc.

Why would you be prosecuted for an ECU remap?

An unapproved ECU remap changes the operating parameters of the engine, the exhaust emissions will almost certtainly change for the worse, the vehicle is not operating in accordance with the makers certification, if the remap is from the car maker, ie tested and approved, then not a problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==

One thing I've tried and failed to get an answer on is whether my 2004 VW Polo, which currently complies with the ULEZ limits, will continue to do so in future - or are they changing the actual ULEZ emissions limits? My garage guy reckons that it won't comply, but other people say it will.

I do not think you will find an answer, the decisions will be in the hands some unelected bureaucrat of the future.
To your benefit:
Your car is a petrol engine, not a diesel, ULEZ does not at present target CO2 emissions, it targets Nox in the exhaust gas, ie the diesel car
Petrol cars do not have a problem with Nox, Diesel cars have the problem, diesel cars are fundamentally Nox producers, inherent in the way diesels work, the high temperatures and pressures in the cylinder cause Oxygen molecules to attach to Nitrogen molecules to create large volumes of Nox, the car makers gave up the battle and placed defeat devices in the ECU and cheated the regulations. Your petrol Polo will have a fraction of the Nox of almost all diesels., even the latest models.
Your 2004 car will be certified as Eu3, however it may meet the later Eu4 standard of 2006, phone VW HQ and ask for a copy of the Certificate of Conformance for your year / model of Polo, the CofC will have the emission figures from the car. it can help with any need for an appeal to TFL should TFL drop compliance of your car model.

 

[MattA7]

Going by what I was told petrol cars release more CO and other pollutants such as benzene however diesels release more NOx and sulfur dioxide emissions. EV release more PM than ICE cars due to being significantly heavier (as well as giving people a false sense of “being green” when they are really just moving the pollution elsewhere)

When I was considering a new car I was advised to get a petrol if it will be mostly used as a city runaround or a diesel if it would be doing a lot of motorway or rural driving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EV release more PM than ICE cars due to being significantly heavier

EVs release more tyre particulates, and improved tyre designs will seek to address that. They release no engine particulates and considerably reduced brake particulates due to regenerative braking being used.

But not all PM is created equal; the size of the particulates matter.

EVs are not a "false sense of being green".

When I was considering a new car I was advised to get a petrol if it will be mostly used as a city runaround or a diesel if it would be doing a lot of motorway or rural driving.

Ignoring EVs that is fairly sensible, though it's also worth being aware that the diesel will need replacing sooner if you drive into urban areas, so if you want to buy one and run it for 10-15 years (i.e. you're into "bangernomics") you should absolutely choose petrol regardless of what you're doing with it, whereas if you, like most people, buy a car (of whatever age) and keep it for about 3-5 years a Euro 6 diesel is still a sensible purchase for now.

Also of note with diesels is that there are far more expensive things that can go wrong as they get older than petrols*. Dual mass flywheels, turbos, high pressure injectors...

* Though some very new petrols are turbocharged/supercharged; a normally-aspirated petrol is likely to last better. NA diesels do too, but you're unlikely to find one as they're horribly sluggish and haven't been installed in mainstream cars for 15-20 years now.

 

[paul1609]

AdBlue isn't the only option. My Kuga is Euro 6 and does not use AdBlue (they also have a model that does with a larger engine). I forget how it does do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2022 ==



Doesn't mean we shouldn't reduce it. This is the "but China" argument.



Isn't London a smokeless zone? Enforce that.



You don't spend your whole day on a Tube station (unless you work there, and I'd say the Unions should be very interested in that!)

Thats why I said may require adblue some car engines dont need it basically by running with a very high exhaust temperature. Some truck engines also reach the standard but are required by European Law to have the ad blue spray. The hysterical outpourings by some of the enviromental groups when a lorry is sometimes found with a defeat device are not at all based on fact.
Its perfectly legal to operate a log burner in central london as long as the wood you use has a ready to burn cert.

 

[E27007]

Going by what I was told petrol cars release more CO and other pollutants such as benzene however diesels release more NOx and sulfur dioxide emissions. EV release more PM than ICE cars due to being significantly heavier (as well as giving people a false sense of “being green)

When I was considering a new car I was advised to get a petrol if it will be mostly used as a city runaround or a diesel if it would be doing a lot of motorway or rural driving.

Short journeys kill DPFs, the DPF will block with ash and the car ECU will light up a warning message instructing you to take the car for a fast motorway drive to clean out the DPF.
Failure to follow the fast drive instruction will lead to more serious blockage of the DPF requiring dealer workshop attention (£££)
The advice you are given is sound, in fact dealers are qualifying purchasers, asking questions as to your potential usage, and will steer you away from a diesel city runaround.
In any case, very few new small cars are available with the diesel option, they are straight petrol or petrol-hybrid

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, very few new small cars are available with the diesel option, they are straight petrol or petrol-hybrid

And that long was the case. You could always get a diesel Corsa or Cinquecento or whatever, but hardly anybody bought them, largely because the extra cost of a diesel was uneconomic against the low cost and typical low usage of a small runaround type car typically owned as a second car or by e.g. students who don't do huge mileages as they can't afford it anyway, and because due to the small size of the car the scope for damping and noise insulation was limited so they tended to sound like a lawnmower or tractor and drive fairly roughly. Diesels were more popular for large estates and SUVs because the higher fuel consumption of such large cars means if you do a high mileage you save money, so most e.g. Mondeos out there are diesels (though there are large petrol estates - quite a lot more Vauxhall Vectras and Insignias than Mondeos, for instance), and pretty much all SUVs. In the middle (e.g. Focuses and Astras) you get and always did get a bit of a mix - perhaps more diesels in the 2000s than the 80s, but there were always both.

 

[MattA7]

I was wondering does anyone know how long a full tank of adblue lasts on a typical diesel car?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was wondering does anyone know how long a full tank of adblue lasts on a typical diesel car?

How Much AdBlue® do Ford Vehicles Consume?

How often you need refill your AdBlue® tank will depend on several things, including your vehicle model and engine size, your AdBlue® usage, and driving style. However, a tank of AdBlue® can usually last between 2330 miles and 6835 miles following an AdBlue® consumption...

www.ford.co.uk

AdBlue® Consumption​

How often you need refill your AdBlue® tank will depend on several things, including your vehicle model and engine size, your AdBlue® usage, and driving style. However, a tank of AdBlue® can usually last between 2330 miles and 6835 miles following an AdBlue® consumption between 1% and 6% of the diesel fuel consumption*.
*Figure based on average usage on a Ford Focus 1.5L Diesel for lower mileage and higher percentage and Transit 2.0L Diesel for higher mileage and lower percentage.

 

[Ted633]

I think a temporary, timeboxed change to Euro 5 for the expanded zone (not central London) would be reasonable. Perhaps 2028 would be reasonable to allow things to settle down in the car market.

You're very lucky having a car with 200K miles on it that doesn't cost you more to keep running for such heavy use than buying something newer! It's not unlikely that in another 5 years that luck will run out.

I agree 100%, a temporary change to the expanded zone would be a decent halfway house while the markets hopefully settle down.

I personally wouldn't call it luck that I've got 200k miles. I only do motorway driving, so the engine is put under minimal stress and suspension, gearbox and brakes have a much easier time compared to town driving. I've also personally maintained it to higher standards than required (Twice-yearly oil changes, more frequent fuel & air filter changes etc). But yes, in 5 years I'll be pushing 300k miles and that will be a tall order!

 

[Bald Rick]

I was wondering does anyone know how long a full tank of adblue lasts on a typical diesel car?

Depends on the size of the tank. Mine lasts about 8,000 miles.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So I am to get rid of my car. Perfectly reliable and not used much but taxed to death. Croydon soon to be absorbed by ULEZ so I am penalised even more. Fine BUT - If emissions are such a problem why do councils like Croydon still let out of town shops pop up where there is little or no public transport. They then let the town centre where all the public transport goes to decline. I would not mind as I find myself more ecological than most around me but it is all hypocrisy.

 

[MattA7]

So I am to get rid of my car. Perfectly reliable and not used much but taxed to death. Croydon soon to be absorbed by ULEZ so I am penalised even more. Fine BUT - If emissions are such a problem why do councils like Croydon still let out of town shops pop up where there is little or no public transport. They then let the town centre where all the public transport goes to decline. I would not mind as I find myself more ecological than most around me but it is all hypocrisy.

Ridiculous Especially given it is a euro 6 which are generally fairly low pollution anyway.