Virgin rail 'bullies'

[Zoe]

The issue is not the fact that advance fares exist in many cases but the fact that these dirt cheap fares have been made available at the expense of affordable trun up and go travel. As previously discussed, what's the point of having a VHF timetable with commnets like "throw away your timetable, there's a train every 20 mintues" when you have to be booked on a specific train.

 

[colpepper]

The issue is not the fact that advance fares exist in many cases but the fact that these dirt cheap fares have been made available at the expense of affordable trun up and go travel.

Precisely. Ticket buffs know how to exploit multi-ticketing and promotions and have the enthusiasm to make them fit their leisure time. Those deals are completely atypical of normal rail travel and give a distorted perspective on the value for money offered by train operators.

Because someone does a 400 mile round trip for twenty five quid does not make that an indicator of the cost of train travel when ten times that price might be an alternative cost. The deals are a sop so TOCs can claim they offer value.

 

[RJ]

The issue is not the fact that advance fares exist in many cases but the fact that these dirt cheap fares have been made available at the expense of affordable trun up and go travel. As previously discussed, what's the point of having a VHF timetable with commnets like "throw away your timetable, there's a train every 20 mintues" when you have to be booked on a specific train.

And I'm sure that the TOCs would rather have bums on seats for £10 a pop than none at all. The suggestion that if fares were averaged out, it would be fairer and not affect income on for the TOCs is very crude and shows a lack of understanding of even the most basic economical principles.

 

[Zoe]

I doubt the TOCs could afford it if everyone travelled for £10. People paying for turn up and go fares are effectively subsidizing the cheap advance fares.

 

[colpepper]

And I'm sure that the TOCs would rather have bums on seats for £10 a pop than none at all. The suggestion that if fares were averaged out, it would be fairer and not affect income on for the TOCs is very crude and shows a lack of understanding of even the most basic economical principles.

The thread is moving off topic but my point is that those who are arguing train operators offer good value are the ones most able to exploit 'empty seat' initiatives.
I unashamedly believe a state owned rail system would be in the interests of the British public as a social and commercial benefit. While ever private operators are expected to pay a dividend they will not prioritise customer's interests but shareholder's.

 

[crewmeal]

‘I couldn’t have them harassing my 14-year-old son and threatening us. They sent him a letter saying he could face three months’ imprisonment or a £1,000 fine.

What gives Virgin the right to be judge jury and executioner to a 14 year old? This threatening behavior amounts to bullying and intimidation.

 

[Zoe]

Once when I was 15 I travelled alone from boarding school I caught the wrong train from Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill and when I was caught the guard pointed this out just smiled and told me to get the right train in future.

Making as much money as possible for shareholders wasn't a priority back then.

 

[SS4]

‘I couldn’t have them harassing my 14-year-old son and threatening us. They sent him a letter saying he could face three months’ imprisonment or a £1,000 fine.

What gives Virgin the right to be judge jury and executioner to a 14 year old? This threatening behavior amounts to bullying and intimidation.

If it happened. From what I remember of the article we only have her word for it

 

[Flamingo]

I disagree with the abolition or amendment of Advance fares. The other day, I was able to book ticket for a rather long distance for just £9.25 (with YP discount), 3 days before travel. I observed the time of my ticket, aimed to be at the station 45 minutes before the train left and had a seamless journey for a bargain price. I was even delayed by 25 minutes on my way to the station. There's nothing confusing, misleading or unfair about that and I noticed the coach was more or less full of people my age with similar tickets. How do you book a specific train for an important journey then manage to miss it? The T&Cs are advised/required to be read prior to purchase and I'd hate to be denied a bargain because some feel that their cheap tickets should give them full flexibility. I'm intrigued as to whether those suggesting that these tickets are dumped actually travel by train and think that being made to pay more is a good thing? Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be something seriously flawed with that train of thought.

I don't think that it's illegal or unethical to have a "buy before you board" policy either. People who could not do this are offered the full range of tickets and people who could, but decided not to are invited to buy an undiscounted ticket or pay a Penalty Fare/UPFN. Many people think they're justified in boarding a train and completing their journey without paying at the other end just because they were not approached en route and there are no barriers at either end. I often have referred to me, people with expired season tickets, no supporting railcard, unvalidated PAYG Oyster cards or simply no ticket, some admitting that they had been used to not being approached to pay their fare. The railway is not here to provide free rides and those who want TOCs to be more lax on "buy before you board" policy need a serious reality check!

Please, unless you are railway staff you are supposed to be demanding that these rapacious TOC's are put in their place with their complicated and unreasonable tickets

 

[mrcheek]

‘I couldn’t have them harassing my 14-year-old son and threatening us. They sent him a letter saying he could face three months’ imprisonment or a £1,000 fine.

What gives Virgin the right to be judge jury and executioner to a 14 year old? This threatening behavior amounts to bullying and intimidation.

What would you do with someone who illegally avoided paying a fare, signed an agreement to pay a fine, and then failed to pay?

I suppose you would have sent him a a free 2 week adventure holiday....

 

[colpepper]

What would you do with someone who illegally avoided paying a fare, signed an agreement to pay a fine, and then failed to pay?

I suppose you would have sent him a a free 2 week adventure holiday....

I hope to God you're not a ticket inspector.

 

[Flamingo]

I do inspect tickets (amongst other things).

Threads like this make me less inclined to be "flexible", as they demonstrate the attitude that the travelling public have about paying the correct fare, and the lengths they will go to to avoid payment.

Lots of posters will advise the best way to get cheaper tickets, and the various combinations that can be used. They will also post about how disgraceful it is that rail staff are not doing their jobs, as the number of threads of the "I haven't had my ticket checked" variety.

However, whenever anything gets published that says that someone (usually white middle class) has fallen foul of the T&C that they were happy to accept to get a cheaper ticket, its all "The jobsworths are at it again".

 

[ainsworth74]

I hope to God you're not a ticket inspector.

It's still a valid question, what would you suggest we do with people how are caught bang to rights without a valid ticket then failed to pay the penalty?

 

[yorkie]

Where is a railcard mentioned in the original story?

It wasn't, I said earlier that I didn't know the specifics but gave some example figures based on a journey from Coventry to London with a Railcard (unless this is the only time they go by train then it would make sense to use a Railcard). My figures given were just an example, and not to be taken to applying in this case. The fact is that, whatever figures you use, the costs are disproportionate for any long distance journey (a passenger on an AP Sheffield-Manchester paying £5 who then gets another train and is charged £16.50 isn't quite so badly done by!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What gives Virgin the right to be judge jury and executioner to a 14 year old? This threatening behaviour amounts to bullying and intimidation.

Well, it's a threat that a court could, theoretically hand out such a sentence. Of course it's nonsense, but at the end of the day Virgin are shooting themselves in the foot with ludicrous threats to have 14-year olds locked up. I suspect an automated system was used and no brains were engaged in the sending of that letter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The issue is not the fact that advance fares exist in many cases but the fact that these dirt cheap fares have been made available at the expense of affordable trun up and go travel. As previously discussed, what's the point of having a VHF timetable with commnets like "throw away your timetable, there's a train every 20 mintues" when you have to be booked on a specific train.

The point (not that I am condoning it) is to justify the extremely expensive tickets, because they do offer a lot of flexibility and some people are prepared to pay a high premium for the flexibility of travelling whenever they want and with a metro-style frequency meaning they never have long to wait. They are right in that there are people prepared to pay for it. But I'm not one of them.

 

[Flamingo]

It wasn't, I said earlier that I didn't know the specifics but gave some example figures based on a journey from Coventry to London with a Railcard (unless this is the only time they go by train then it would make sense to use a Railcard). My figures given were just an example, and not to be taken to applying in this case. The fact is that, whatever figures you use, the costs are disproportionate for any long distance journey (a passenger on an AP Sheffield-Manchester paying £5 who then gets another train and is charged £16.50 isn't quite so badly done by!)

Look at it the other way around.

They had a discount of a few hundred pounds from the anytime ticket (as EVERY ticket is discounted from).

In return for that discount, they agreed to accept certain T&C.

The bigger the discount, the more they should be prepared to accept those T&C. If someone has an advanced ticket on my trains, I am much more prepared to give them some slack if the discount is only £10 on an £85 full fare, than if they are on the wrong train and have only paid £12 for the journey that should have cost them £85.

 

[EM2]

Has it escaped everyone's notice that this appears to be a group of FOUR adults and one child?

The company director was travelling from Coventry to Euston for a friend’s birthday with her husband, son and two friends

So that means that out of the £270 Virgin asked for, each adult would be charged £60 and the child £30. Still disproportionate?

I'm now wondering if the 'friend' who bought the tickets was one of the friends who was travelling...

 

[yorkie]

I do inspect tickets (amongst other things).

Threads like this make me less inclined to be "flexible", as they demonstrate the attitude that the travelling public have about paying the correct fare, and the lengths they will go to to avoid payment.

The counter argument is that this demonstrates the attitude of guards and TOCs. But it's not a valid argument, this was one set of passengers (we don't know if they were rude or not), one guard (ditto) and one TOC.

These stories mostly occur on Virgin, EMT and East Coast. Not FGW. So I suspect that FGW have less 'bad apples', may have better training, and better policies regarding discretion. The posts I've read by you mostly indicate that my suspicions are right, which is a good thing! I'm not saying you allow people to get away with it - far from it -but you seem to apply common sense and discretion, and if passengers won't comply in those situations then they deserve everything they get.

Lots of posters will advise the best way to get cheaper tickets, and the various combinations that can be used. They will also post about how disgraceful it is that rail staff are not doing their jobs, as the number of threads of the "I haven't had my ticket checked" variety.

I totally disagree with those type of threads, whenever I see them I do try to point out that guards have other duties.

However, whenever anything gets published that says that someone (usually white middle class) has fallen foul of the T&C that they were happy to accept to get a cheaper ticket, its all "The jobsworths are at it again".

But if this was on FGW, they'd probably have been asked for rather less than the extortionate amount they were charged, and this story would not have happened.

 

[mrcheek]

I hope to God you're not a ticket inspector.

Im not. But unlike you and a few other people on here, I have worked in a customer facing environment. and guess what? the general public are not all honest, law-abiding citizens who always tell the truth, and only ever make completely honest mistakes.

anyone on here who has worked with the general public has encountered tons of people like Mrs Spacey, who seem to think they are somehow better than everyone else, and somehow above the law. well frankly, when those people are caught, I think they deserve to face some sort of consequences!

 

[colpepper]

It's still a valid question, what would you suggest we do with people how are caught bang to rights without a valid ticket then failed to pay the penalty?

As the originator of the question used an analogy with unplanned pregnancy I find it hard to take seriously. The idea that a ticket collector's judgement is informed by unreconstructed views of female morals makes me disinclined to pursue his train (sic) of logic. He could of course be a disinterested punter and not a ticket man from a bad dream.

 

[yorkie]

So that means that out of the £270 Virgin asked for, each adult would be charged £60 and the child £30. Still disproportionate?

No, that would actually seem sensible. However I got the impression that the amount quoted was just for the family and not their friends. However without knowing the origin (we can only assume Coventry) and destination (we can only assume Euston), the amount paid (this can vary considerably) and the exact amounts asked for per passenger, it is difficult to comment on the specifics of this case.

However the rules are, in my opinion, charging disproportionate amounts, e.g someone can buy a £23 Advance fare from Wakefield to Derby, get the wrong train and then be charged for a brand new anytime single (at £19) on top. Someone buying on board would only pay £19. Yes those figures are correct, I saw them last night and was quite surprised.

If these people were excessed, and the £270 is for the entire group, then it's more in line with what I would consider reasonable and I would, in those circumstances, expect the customers to lose any legal battle and have no sympathy for them.

We really shouldn't judge the people in this case as we do not know the details.

But I can, and will, judge the rules. And they stink!

 

[mrcheek]

Has it escaped everyone's notice that this appears to be a group of FOUR adults and one child?

So that means that out of the £270 Virgin asked for, each adult would be charged £60 and the child £30. Still disproportionate?

I'm now wondering if the 'friend' who bought the tickets was one of the friends who was travelling...

Its amazing how so many of us missed that!

It would be interesting to find out what happened to these friends. Did they happily pay the excess? Or are they refusing to pay as well, but dont wish their names to be all over the media? I guess we have no way of finding out.

 

[Flamingo]

All depends on which guard they met

As I have often said, it can depend on my mood and their attitude.

Reading the story, what kind of attitude do you think the guard was met with?

 

[mrcheek]

As the originator of the question used an analogy with unplanned pregnancy I find it hard to take seriously. The idea that a ticket collector's judgement is informed by unreconstructed views of female morals makes me disinclined to pursue his train (sic) of logic. He could of course be a disinterested punter and not a ticket man from a bad dream.

so you are entitled to make a moral judgment about my character based on an offhand jokey comment, yet it is unacceptable for me to make similar judgments against a publicity seeking fare evader?

in any case, the validity of my question still stands, and it has been repeated by other people, with whom you may have less personal issues.

btw, I dont work for any railway company, and never have done, so Im not sure where you got that idea from.

 

[yorkie]

The bigger the discount, the more they should be prepared to accept those T&C. If someone has an advanced ticket on my trains, I am much more prepared to give them some slack if the discount is only £10 on an £85 full fare, than if they are on the wrong train and have only paid £12 for the journey that should have cost them £85.

Well that's really what I am saying should happen; that some allowance/consideration should be made regarding the fare already paid. And the fare considered to be due should take into consideration the cost of walk-on travel on that train. Believe me, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, and if all guards demonstrated your level of discretion I reckon revenue would be up, passenger journeys would be up, complaints would be down, and media disasters would be non-existent. So, why don't the TOCs introduce a fairer system, based on these factors?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so you are entitled to make a moral judgment about my character based on an offhand jokey comment,

Some of the comments you have made in this thread are outrageous. People will have their own views on that.

yet it is unacceptable for me to make similar judgments against a publicity seeking fare evader?

Some of your judgements are unacceptable and based on assumptions that are unsafe. You may be right; but we can't be certain. What you posted could certainly be considered libellous. Please refrain.

 

[Flamingo]

Well that's really what I am saying should happen; that some allowance/consideration should be made regarding the fare already paid. And the fare considered to be due should take into consideration the cost of walk-on travel on that train. Believe me, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, and if all guards demonstrated your level of discretion I reckon revenue would be up, passenger journeys would be up, complaints would be down, and media disasters would be non-existent. So, why don't the TOCs introduce a fairer system, based on these factors?

Why thank you Can I ask you to do my next review?

However, I do think that it is important for the TOC's to have a big stick in reserve, once it is used sensibly. Most people respond to a carrot, some need a stick to make them obey the rules. Some need a bloody big stick.

I have known only one Guard who played it totally by the book regarding ticket irregularities (full open, no excuses). They took a PHENOMENAL amount in revenue (and no, was not on commission), but caused so many other problems that it was questionable if they were doing the company any good at all. The number of times they were assaulted was also a record. This was recognised and commented on by many others.

Those of you who are not rail staff in revenue roles might be surprised at how often (at least with us) management tell staff not to be so overzealous, let people away with it, look at the bigger picture, etc. The picture of the evil TOC demanding their revenue staff screw every last penny out of the unfortunate passengers could not be further from the truth, in my experience (and talking to staff from other TOC's, I find the same).

 

[mrcheek]

Some of your judgements are unacceptable and based on assumptions that are unsafe. You may be right; but we can't be certain. What you posted could certainly be considered libellous. Please refrain.

Im entitled to my opinions. Nothing I have said is libellous. Most of is is fact, some of it is speculation, but all of it is fair comment.

 

[yorkie]

Why thank you Can I ask you to do my next review?.

lol. To be honest I'd say the same about quite a few guards on here.

I think the vast majority of guards do show discretion when appropriate and do a good job, certainly based on what I have experienced and been told.

The 'horror stories' seem most frequent on Virgin, followed by East Coast, and then EMT and XC.

XC are probably one of the most varied having some of the best (e.g. a certain person who has every connection memorised including the platform and destination of each train, based at Leeds, and someone else based there who is due to retire soon) but also some that are not so good (and their colleagues know it). TPE are also very varied, I've heard some horror stories but I've only ever experienced good guards, including one who gave out bus advice to an elderly customer, telling her she could go cheaper next time if she didn't take the train and took a bus instead (that is honesty for you!)

 

[SS4]

Those of you who are not rail staff in revenue roles might be surprised at how often (at least with us) management tell staff not to be so overzealous, let people away with it, look at the bigger picture, etc. The picture of the evil TOC demanding their revenue staff screw every last penny out of the unfortunate passengers could not be further from the truth, in my experience (and talking to staff from other TOC's, I find the same).

I can imagine that to be honest especially since first and foremost you have to keep yourself self, then the passengers safe and taking on a group of drunken idiots hell bent on fight is not the wisest idea.

Then the TOC have their reputation to keep up, they can always raise ticket prices anyway (do they even have to publish rises?) to get the revenue, after all the court cost and media damage would cost more than the original fare.

I have to admit as a passenger it is frustrating to see someone appearing to get away with fare evasion. Every journey I make on an advance ticket I'm there 45-60minutes before the due departure, I check my tickets (since I often travel advance) against the departure board and then my railcard then a cuppa in the First lounge and then repeat the process. VT staff have always been professional and helpful even when I've felt that I have less right to be in first dressed scruffily and on a ~£15 advance first compared to everyone else in suits and on advance tickets sans railcard.

Hopefully an important part of this story is that those passengers who have received good service from the TOC (VT in this case) should let the TOC know!

 

[colpepper]

Guards vary. On Midland Mainline one stag party that was threatening to get out of order was rewarded for their trouble with a free bottle of wine. As they were already three sheets to the wind an over-zealous ticket op would have sent the situation into riot control. As it was the bottle, and a few well wishes for the wedding, appeased them and general goodwill broke out. The lady guard called it just right. Some would argue she was rewarding bad behaviour, I beg to differ.

Years earlier a guard went into a rage with a friend of mine calling him all the names under the sun, confiscating his ticket and railcard for the crime of his photograph being stapled, not glued inside. The card was issued by his student union office and he had no part in it. Fortunately independent witnesses came forward to support my friend's version of events and instead of a fine being issued the guard received an official warning.

I've met thoughtful and self aware ticket collectors and deeply dysfunctional human beings in the same job. The answer is if you don't like people don't work with the general public.

 

[Flamingo]

I have to admit as a passenger it is frustrating to see someone appearing to get away with fare evasion. Every journey I make on an advance ticket I'm there 45-60minutes before the due departure, I check my tickets (since I often travel advance) against the departure board and then my railcard then a cuppa in the First lounge and then repeat the process.

And there you have the nub of the problem. If you take the time and effort to allow a few trains to go out, to get on the train you booked, or go to the ticket office to excess your ticket to change trains and pay the surcharge, why should Mrs Company Directior and family jump on an earlier train because they feel like it, as stuff like T&C only applies to other people.

Fair application of the rules means that people who play by them should not be seen to be disadvantaged over those who can shout louder.