Virgin Saturday Day Travelcard

[First class]

Hello

I've just bought a £34.60 Travelcard for Liverpool Stns - Zone 1-6 London.

It is a "Saturday Day Travelcard" routed Virgin Trns Only.

On enquring at the VT desk in Lime St whether it was valid on the likes of FCC/C2C/SWT I was told it is only valid on Virgin Trains and London Underground as it is routed Virgin Trns Only.

The Manual states only valid on VT, however on the "Travelcard" section lists:

•In instances where more than one Day Travelcard fare is available, prices will be specifically routed from the origin station, e.g. Peterborough to London Zones 1-6 (Route ‘FCC only’ or ‘Any Permitted’). Wholly within the Fare Zones however, they are both valid for travel on all participating operators’ services.

Therefore I am assuming that the route/operator restriction only applies between Liverpool and London Euston, and I can use any operator within Zone 1-6.

Can anyone:

a) Confirm this is correct.
b) Whether RPIs in London are likely to know this;
c) If there is any publically available product information on this Virgin TC?

Thanks

 

[button_boxer]

If it's not valid on all operators within the zones then they wouldn't be allowed to call it a travelcard surely?

 

[bb21]

How can you travel solely on Virgin inside the travelcard zones? The only station Virgin serves inside the travelcard area is London Euston.

So yes you can use your travelcard within Zones 1-6 on any operator.

 

[RJ]

Hello

I've just bought a £34.60 Travelcard for Liverpool Stns - Zone 1-6 London.

It is a "Saturday Day Travelcard" routed Virgin Trns Only.

On enquring at the VT desk in Lime St whether it was valid on the likes of FCC/C2C/SWT I was told it is only valid on Virgin Trains and London Underground as it is routed Virgin Trns Only.

The Manual states only valid on VT, however on the "Travelcard" section lists:



Therefore I am assuming that the route/operator restriction only applies between Liverpool and London Euston, and I can use any operator within Zone 1-6.

Can anyone:

a) Confirm this is correct.
b) Whether RPIs in London are likely to know this;
c) If there is any publically available product information on this Virgin TC?

Thanks

a.) It's an Off Peak Day Travelcard with a return trip from Liverpool bolted on.


b.) No, London RPIs are not likely to know what an outboundary Travelcard is.
Unsure what response you want to a question like this.

c.) www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Pumbaa]

Can you get railcard discounts on this ticket? It looks amazingly good value, so I suspect very strongly not!

 

[radamfi]

Avantix NFM08:

Restriction : VY
OUTWARD TRAVEL:

Available for date shown.
Available by Virgin train
shown.

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available for date shown.
Available by Virgin train
shown.
WDT SUPER OFF-PEAK DAY
TRAVELCARD

Ticket: SUPER OFF-PEAK
________________DAY TRAVELCARD
Code - WDT
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - TRAIN ON TICKET
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - ANY VIRGIN TRAIN
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - NO
Pre-Booking Req: 1800 Day
________________________Before
Reservations Compulsory: YES
_________________Outwards Only
Discounts:
Child - NO
Railcard - NO
Group - NO
Refunds: See below

DESCRIPTION:
Saturday Day Travel card is a
Standard Class product
allowing customers to travel
from a number of Virgin Trains
stations to London and enjoy
unlimited travel throughout
London Fare Zones 1-6.
Reservations are compulsory
for the outward journey and
customers must travel on this
service. The return journey
can be made at any time on the
same day, although it is not
reservation compulsory,
reservations are recommended.
Please note that the ticket is
quota controlled on the
outward journey, and
reservations must be made out
of the correct quota. For
reservations for the return
journey, the default standard
class quota can be used.

AVAILABILITY:
Tickets are routed 'VIRGIN
TRNS ONLY' are valid on Virgin
services only.

Valid only on the date
specified on the ticket, and
at the time specified for the
outward journey.

CONDITIONS:

REFUNDS - 50% refund less
administration fee if
submitted for refund before
the departure of the first
train on the outward journey.

CHANGES - Changes to travel
plans must be arranged before
the booking deadline. The
difference between the price
paid and the cost of the next
suitable fare is payable, the
ticket can only be changed if
the origin and destination
remain the same. An
administration fee is payable
each time the ticket is
changed.

 

[First class]

It says "Virgin Trns Only". Virgin staff I have spoke to claim this means not valid on any other operators, even in the travelcard area, except LU.

This is a badly worded ticket in my opinion. A SWT RPI could quite clearly point out that it says VT Only if I got on their trains and start a PF debate.

I have full access to The Manual, but this particular product is not advertised to the public as far as I can tell, i.e. there is no "Special Offer" page on NRE.

Ultimately, where can I find concrete PROOF that this is valid on other operators, despite the ticket saying VT Only?? The staff manuals don't say what happens in this circumstance.

•In instances where more than one Day Travelcard fare is available, prices will be specifically routed from the origin station, e.g. Peterborough to London Zones 1-6 (Route ‘FCC only’ or ‘Any Permitted’). Wholly within the Fare Zones however, they are both valid for travel on all participating operators’ services.

The above is the closest thing you get to evidence, but that suggests more than one fare must be available, when this restricted travelcard is the ONLY fare, VT Only.

 

[MikeWh]

It's a Travelcard. Travelcards are NEVER limited to one operator within zones 1-6. You have absolutely unlimited travel on any train, tube, dlr or bus within the zones apart from the Heathrow and HS1 restrictions. You have absolutely no worries.

DESCRIPTION:
Saturday Day Travel card is a
Standard Class product
allowing customers to travel
from a number of Virgin Trains
stations to London and enjoy
unlimited travel throughout
London Fare Zones 1-6.

 

[radamfi]

There are FCC only Travelcards too. Hopefully nobody thinks they aren't valid on other TOCs in the Travelcard area.

 

[43167]

Hello

I've just bought a £34.60 Travelcard for Liverpool Stns - Zone 1-6 London.

It is a "Saturday Day Travelcard" routed Virgin Trns Only.

On enquring at the VT desk in Lime St whether it was valid on the likes of FCC/C2C/SWT I was told it is only valid on Virgin Trains and London Underground as it is routed Virgin Trns Only.

The Manual states only valid on VT, however on the "Travelcard" section lists:



Therefore I am assuming that the route/operator restriction only applies between Liverpool and London Euston, and I can use any operator within Zone 1-6.

Can anyone:

a) Confirm this is correct.
b) Whether RPIs in London are likely to know this;
c) If there is any publically available product information on this Virgin TC?

Thanks

VT only down the WCML yes, but when in London you are surely free to do whatever. Cant see there been a problem. Should have asked, How do I get to Hampton Court then?. Not that I expect you to go to Hampton Court, just using that an example as its in zone 6 on the south side of the thames.

 

[swt_passenger]

It says "Virgin Trns Only". Virgin staff I have spoke to claim this means not valid on any other operators, even in the travelcard area, except LU.

This is a badly worded ticket in my opinion. A SWT RPI could quite clearly point out that it says VT Only if I got on their trains and start a PF debate.

In my experience SWT & FCC revenue staff are quite familiar with this oddity of 'other TOC' routes shown on Day Travelcards. I've used them for a coupe of years routed 'Southern Only' with no problem at all, indeed all that I remember in that time is when an SWT guard simply reminded me it wasn't valid on SWT services outside the zones.

I can't see you having a problem at all - I reckon that most London staff just see 'Travelcard' and look for the date.

 

[RJ]

Can you get railcard discounts on this ticket? It looks amazingly good value, so I suspect very strongly not!

No, discounts are not available!

 

[trickyvegas]

In my experience SWT & FCC revenue staff are quite familiar with this oddity of 'other TOC' routes shown on Day Travelcards. I've used them for a coupe of years routed 'Southern Only' with no problem at all, indeed all that I remember in that time is when an SWT guard simply reminded me it wasn't valid on SWT services outside the zones.

I can't see you having a problem at all - I reckon that most London staff just see 'Travelcard' and look for the date.

I used on in May last year for Cup final day and a bit of sightseeing beforehand and used it for both underground and overground with no problems with the staff. I did not chance it with the barrier, however as the travelcard and return portion of the virgin service to Manchester were on the one ticket and I was a bit paranoid about it getting swallowed.

 

[MikeWh]

I used on in May last year for Cup final day and a bit of sightseeing beforehand and used it for both underground and overground with no problems with the staff. I did not chance it with the barrier, however as the travelcard and return portion of the virgin service to Manchester were on the one ticket and I was a bit paranoid about it getting swallowed.

For information, a travelcard is never swallowed by gates within the zones because it might be needed on a bus after the final train journey.

 

[tony_mac]

but Watford Junction travelcards are swallowed by the barriers.

 

[swt_passenger]

but Watford Junction travelcards are swallowed by the barriers.

Isn't that exactly what you should expect, because Watford Junction is outside the travelcard zones, and your travelcard is an 'outboundary travelcard'. It will be kept by the barriers on return just like a travelcard from somewhere miles away.

 

[John @ home]

a travelcard is never swallowed by gates within the zones because it might be needed on a bus after the final train journey

but Watford Junction travelcards are swallowed by the barriers.

Isn't that exactly what you should expect

No, you shouldn't expect it at Watford Jn because the Travelcard remains valid on some local bus services from Watford Jn. We have debated at least twice before the retention of Travelcards at stations just outside the rail zones but where some buses still accept Travelcards.

 

[radamfi]

No, you shouldn't expect it at Watford Jn because the Travelcard remains valid on some local bus services from Watford Jn. We have debated at least twice before the retention of Travelcards at stations just outside the rail zones but where some buses still accept Travelcards.

In fact, retention of Travelcards for use on TfL buses was explicitly allowed as shown in the Fare Manual pdfs on the National Rail website before The Manual was invented.

Can anyone with access to The Manual confirm that this text still remains?

 

[clagmonster]

There are two types of Watford Jn travelcard. There is the outboundary travelcard, essentially a day return from Watford Jn to Boundary Zone 9 with a Zone 1-9 Travelcard bolted on. This is valid for unlimited use within zones 1-9 and on London Buses, so should be returned by Watford Jn barriers.
There is also a zone 1-9 + Watford Jn Travelcard, which is an LT product, which is marketed as if Watford Jn were a separate zone. See http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

 

[swt_passenger]

In fact, retention of Travelcards for use on TfL buses was explicitly allowed as shown in the Fare Manual pdfs on the National Rail website before The Manual was invented.

Use of seasons at any station between points A and B is also allowed, as is BOJ, but it doesn't mean the barriers cope with it.

I would expect such a travelcard to be retained by the barriers only because I'm already aware the barriers are unlikely to have been programmed correctly. I don't disagree with the fact that they remain valid.

Are there any stations outside the zones known to automatically pass travelcards through on completion of the return journey? And if so, are they correctly coded to prevent reuse? If reuse cannot be prevented that'll explain why they aren't passed through automatically, I'd think...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are two types of Watford Jn travelcard. There is the outboundary travelcard, essentially a day return from Watford Jn to Boundary Zone 9...

Zone 8, to be accurate?

 

[radamfi]

There are two types of Watford Jn travelcard. There is the outboundary travelcard, essentially a day return from Watford Jn to Boundary Zone 9 with a Zone 1-9 Travelcard bolted on. This is valid for unlimited use within zones 1-9 and on London Buses, so should be returned by Watford Jn barriers.
There is also a zone 1-9 + Watford Jn Travelcard, which is an LT product, which is marketed as if Watford Jn were a separate zone. See http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

Those two types of Travelcard sound remarkably similar!

Avantix NFM08 has Watford Junction to London Zones 1-6 fares as the same as the TfL site, with the addition of the First Class and Family Travelcards. These are route "AAA Ldn Zone 7-9". If this, as you suggest, is an Outboundary Travelcard, then whilst you can retain the ticket for use on buses outside the TfL area, it is no longer valid for another train trip from Watford Junction, or for any other rail use within the zones.

If you buy 'the TfL product' (at the same price), it sounds like you are permitted to go back into the zones and back to Watford Junction as many times as you want. I can see that buying this product on Oyster (i.e. using the daily cap) will allow this. So if you want that facility it sounds you need to use Oyster. But if the TfL site shows a 'Travelcard' available, surely that must mean it is available on paper, with unlimited travel between Watford Junction and the zones? If it is available on paper, how can you distinguish between this and the 'traditional' (TOC style) Outboundary Travelcard?

However, confusingly, there is an Oyster daily cap between Grays and the zones, but no 'TfL Travelcard' according to the TfL website. Of course, there is a regular Outboundary Travelcard from Grays, but this will only allow one return trip from Grays to the zones.

 

[clagmonster]

I think that they are probably intended to be the same product. However, as BR systems do not include London Zones 1-9 or London Zones 1-W as destinations, Watford Jn Travelcards issued by BR are issued as outboundary Travelcards, hence are only valid for one return journey between Watford Jn and Boundary Zone 8. This is the case wherever the ticket is purchased, which I can see could cause problems if someone wanted to buy one at a BR station without Underground interchange.

Similar problems exist with zone 1-9 Travelcards, which have to have somewhere like Chalfont as the origin, unlike other Travelcards which can be issued from anywhere in the relevent zones.

I will PM London Midland David to point him towards this thread.

 

[London_Midland]

I have asked for help on this one - will get back to you!

 

[RJ]

Zones 7 - 9 are not zones in the traditional sense. There are 6 Zones and 7 - 9 are merely a collective of stations which allow TfL to have a uniform fare structure to all stations that they serve.

Anyone with a Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard or Freedom Pass requiring an extension to stations in Zones 7 - 9 get a BZ6 extension to the named station. Anyone with a Zone 1 - 9 Travelcard wanting an extension to Watford Junction or beyond gets an extension from Boundary Zone 6, unless they want to use LOROL, then I would do an extension from Watford High Street.

As for retention of Travelcards in ticket barriers, one can request to keep the ticket if the Travelcard is still required.

 

[clagmonster]

I think I agree with you. However, I believe it should be possible for BR ticket retailers to sell the Zone 1-9 and 1-W products easily, in line with said uniform fare structure.

I think with the present range of tickets you do right with extension requests. However, I don't see why Boundary Zone 7 through to Boundary Zone 9 (possibly even Boundary Zone W) can't be in the system to begin with. After all, passengers with a Zone 1-9 Travelcard and a Boundary Zone 6-Tring, for example, are paying twice to travel through zones 7-W.

As a matter of interest, could LUL booking offices sell extensions from Boundary Zone 9, for example?

And thanks to David (London Midland) for looking into this.

 

[Wolfie]

Zones 7 - 9 are not zones in the traditional sense. There are 6 Zones and 7 - 9 are merely a collective of stations which allow TfL to have a uniform fare structure to all stations that they serve.

Anyone with a Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard or Freedom Pass requiring an extension to stations in Zones 7 - 9 get a BZ6 extension to the named station. Anyone with a Zone 1 - 9 Travelcard wanting an extension to Watford Junction or beyond gets an extension from Boundary Zone 6, unless they want to use LOROL, then I would do an extension from Watford High Street.

As for retention of Travelcards in ticket barriers, one can request to keep the ticket if the Travelcard is still required.

I am VERY confused by this. My other half's Fredom pass, issued by a London Borough very definitely in Zones 1-6, works the gates perfectly in all Zone 7-9 stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Zones 7 - 9 are not zones in the traditional sense. There are 6 Zones and 7 - 9 are merely a collective of stations which allow TfL to have a uniform fare structure to all stations that they serve.

Anyone with a Zone 1 - 6 Travelcard or Freedom Pass requiring an extension to stations in Zones 7 - 9 get a BZ6 extension to the named station. Anyone with a Zone 1 - 9 Travelcard wanting an extension to Watford Junction or beyond gets an extension from Boundary Zone 6, unless they want to use LOROL, then I would do an extension from Watford High Street.

As for retention of Travelcards in ticket barriers, one can request to keep the ticket if the Travelcard is still required.

(my bold)

I am VERY confused by this. My other half's Freedom pass, issued by a London Borough very definitely in Zones 1-6, works the gates perfectly in all Zone 7-9 stations.

 

[radamfi]

I am VERY confused by this. My other half's Fredom pass, issued by a London Borough very definitely in Zones 1-6, works the gates perfectly in all Zone 7-9 stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


(my bold)

I am VERY confused by this. My other half's Freedom pass, issued by a London Borough very definitely in Zones 1-6, works the gates perfectly in all Zone 7-9 stations.

Freedom Passes are valid on the whole TfL network so should work in zone 7-9 barriers. However, it is not valid on London Midland and Southern trains between Harrow & Willesden and Watford Junction, but this won't make any difference to getting through the barriers as Watford Junction and Bushey are also served by London Overground.

 

[RJ]

I am VERY confused by this. My other half's Fredom pass, issued by a London Borough very definitely in Zones 1-6, works the gates perfectly in all Zone 7-9 stations.

It goes without saying that a Freedom Pass is valid on TfL services, but some holders don't want to use TfL services i.e those wanting to use NR services beyond Zone 6 to Bushey for example in which case an extension is required. I should have stated that seperately.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Is this advertised anywhere ? have heard of it but not seen any publicity