Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

With reference to most station platforms being too short for 5 coach 175s, will the 5 coach Mark 4s just skip these stations to add to the "Intercity experience" or will the awkward guard locking doors operation continue?

Neither. SDO is being fitted.

 

[GWVillager]

Neither. SDO is being fitted.

Ah that explains it, thanks.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Swansea Fishguard does not require 175s when there aren’t enough of them as it is. Anyone that bothered about what train they go on can travel to Whitland on a Milford Haven service and change.

I agree that the 175s are needed more on the longer runs, but anyone that bothered probably wouldn't take too kindly to being dumped at windy Whitland for an hour and a half either (no toilets or waiting room, and the station is like a wind tunnel).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I agree that the 175s are needed more on the longer runs, but anyone that bothered probably wouldn't take too kindly to being dumped at windy Whitland for an hour and a half either (no toilets or waiting room, and the station is like a wind tunnel).

Carmarthen then. It’s not exactly hardship, especially when we’re only talking about the fussy ones for which an extra half an hour on a 150 is too much.

And even if the few passengers going to Fishguard travelled all the way from Swansea, I (and many others I’m sure) would still rank the route FAR less deserving of a 175/197 than the Marches.

Returning to the topic at hand, I always loved InterCity 225 sets, and much prefer them to Azumas and much, much preferred them to creaky old HSTs on the East Coast, I think they feel so dowdy and downtrodden on the Welsh route.

It’s probably because the 175s feel so modern (despite being middle aged now) and light with their refurbishment. The faded Virgin Trains East Coast red and dated features like the smoking area wall, along with the slam shut vestibule doors, reservations permanently fixed on ECML destinations, horrendous new announcements, dirty looking first class seats with the LNER head cushion removed yet no replacement installed and shabby exterior (clashing with the DVT and loco), plus the ride - I can’t explain it but when moving the train just feels heavy.

Not to mention that a booked 175 is more likely to BE a 175 than a booked 67 is to be a 67. There’s an evening Holyhead that’s usually five or six coaches (2x 175) and I personally find that far more desirable than the loco.

An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Carmarthen then. It’s not exactly hardship

Good luck boarding either of the morning Swansea to Fishguards at Carmarthen; both are non-stop Llanelli to Whitland.

And even if the few passengers going to Fishguard travelled all the way from Swansea, I (and many others I’m sure) would still rank the route FAR less deserving of a 175/197 than the Marches.

I agree that Swansea to Fishguard is less deserving of a 175 or mark 4 set than the Marches.

a booked 175 is more likely to BE a 175 than a booked 67 is to be a 67. There’s an evening Holyhead that’s usually five or six coaches (2x 175) and I personally find that far more desirable than the loco.

Sad but true, the mark 4 services seemed very hit and miss when they were first introduced on the Cardiff-Holyhead route. It might not be so bad if there were enough 175s to have a pair of them step in if the mark 4s were unavailable but unfortunately that's not the case so the mark 4 services are very much a train quality lottery - a mark 4 set if you win or a 150 or 153 lashup otherwise.

An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

GNER livery worked quite well and that was a very dark blue (not that far off black) with a red stripe and looked smart enough. The TfW red and white livery looks smart enough with the black window band as on the 175s and sprinters but the 197s don't have that and, with the wide doors as well, just look like tube trains. I don't know if they keep each DVT with it's 'own' coaches, but if they do it might be a nice idea to pair the RNLI DVT with one of the ex-GC sets and keep the orange stripe on that one with the DVT itself being re-vinyled in orange (when the vinyls need renewing) to resemble a lifeboat.

 

[anthony263]

After Crewe a 6 car will only fit at Shrewsbury, Hereford and Newport, plus Abergavenny northbound. A 5 car only adds Church Stretton, Craven Arms, Pontypool and Cwmbran to that list (plus Ludlow northbound).

Also most of the Swanline stations are 4 cars only - and the December timetable still shows them served by the Manchester DMU services and not the separate Cardiff - Swansea service that existed pre Covid.

According to the new issue of modern railway tfw introducing a improved swanline service from may 2023

 

[sd0733]

An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

From what I've been told sets won't be getting a refresh, and will keep the current VTEC/GC interior for the foreseeable future.
The black and red exterior has fallen out of favour and all the sets are now looking likely to get a repaint. Plans change regularly though so it could well have changed again by now!

 

[GWVillager]

Carmarthen then. It’s not exactly hardship, especially when we’re only talking about the fussy ones for which an extra half an hour on a 150 is too much.

And even if the few passengers going to Fishguard travelled all the way from Swansea, I (and many others I’m sure) would still rank the route FAR less deserving of a 175/197 than the Marches.

Returning to the topic at hand, I always loved InterCity 225 sets, and much prefer them to Azumas and much, much preferred them to creaky old HSTs on the East Coast, I think they feel so dowdy and downtrodden on the Welsh route.

It’s probably because the 175s feel so modern (despite being middle aged now) and light with their refurbishment. The faded Virgin Trains East Coast red and dated features like the smoking area wall, along with the slam shut vestibule doors, reservations permanently fixed on ECML destinations, horrendous new announcements, dirty looking first class seats with the LNER head cushion removed yet no replacement installed and shabby exterior (clashing with the DVT and loco), plus the ride - I can’t explain it but when moving the train just feels heavy.

Not to mention that a booked 175 is more likely to BE a 175 than a booked 67 is to be a 67. There’s an evening Holyhead that’s usually five or six coaches (2x 175) and I personally find that far more desirable than the loco.

An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

I have to disagree here. Whilst the exterior is looking very shabby and the First Class could do with headrests, I still find them absolutely fantastic trains to travel on. Perhaps it's all the negative connotations I associate with 175s, but they seem to have a funny smell, look 'of their time' above the seats internally and sound as if they're giving up. Many of my non-enthusiast friends share a similar sentiment.

By contrast, the Mark 4s may not be in their best ever condition, but they are a joy to travel on. They take crowds much better than 175s and have a far more comfortable and modern ambience (in my opinion, but it is other's as well. There is a particular instance when they had just been introduced and a rake of Mark 4s pull into Abergavenny- the passenger next to me on the platform, seeing my camera, expressed their delight and told me how fantastic it looked!). I think a large part of it lies in the feel of a 'proper' intercity train, something this line has really been lacking for too long, the Manchester trains aren't some suburban commuter operation, it's an intercity service. The Mark 4s fulfill that whereas the 175s are rather underwhelming.

 

[XAM2175]

Returning to the topic at hand, I always loved InterCity 225 sets, and much prefer them to Azumas and much, much preferred them to creaky old HSTs on the East Coast, I think they feel so dowdy and downtrodden on the Welsh route.

It’s probably because the 175s feel so modern (despite being middle aged now) and light with their refurbishment. The faded Virgin Trains East Coast red and dated features like the smoking area wall, along with the slam shut vestibule doors, reservations permanently fixed on ECML destinations, horrendous new announcements, dirty looking first class seats with the LNER head cushion removed yet no replacement installed and shabby exterior (clashing with the DVT and loco), plus the ride - I can’t explain it but when moving the train just feels heavy.
...
An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

I'm reserving my judgement on the red-on-black for the time being, as I think there is a chance it can be made to work... though I fear it's not a very great one.

I can understand that it is the financially responsible way to approach the matter, given that it avoids paying for putting the ex-GC cars through a repaint they don't need - but I agree that the TfW white is a tasteful scheme and it would have been nice to see all the sets done that way from the get-go instead of having them enter service in such a shabby state. At this point though we just have to hope that everything gets sorted sooner rather than later.

Regarding the ride; this doesn't entirely surprise me because I get the impression that those Swiss bogies already found the ECML to be at edge of their comfort zone I don't share the opinion expressed by some others here that they rode poorly then, but I'm definitely curious to try them on their new home rails.

And regarding the smoking area dividers - I'd never considered them dated at all. I rather like them actually, as they help divide the saloon up and make it a little bit more snug.

Chiefly for me though is the fact that the Mallard seats are more than acceptably comfy, but the 175's are far too steeply reclined

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From what I've been told sets won't be getting a refresh, and will keep the current VTEC/GC interior for the foreseeable future.
The black and red exterior has fallen out of favour and all the sets are now looking likely to get a repaint. Plans change regularly though so it could well have changed again by now!

Thank god for that. The white livery will look very smart, I’m sure.

I have to disagree here. Whilst the exterior is looking very shabby and the First Class could do with headrests, I still find them absolutely fantastic trains to travel on. Perhaps it's all the negative connotations I associate with 175s, but they seem to have a funny smell, look 'of their time' above the seats internally and sound as if they're giving up. Many of my non-enthusiast friends share a similar sentiment.

By contrast, the Mark 4s may not be in their best ever condition, but they are a joy to travel on. They take crowds much better than 175s and have a far more comfortable and modern ambience (in my opinion, but it is other's as well. There is a particular instance when they had just been introduced and a rake of Mark 4s pull into Abergavenny- the passenger next to me on the platform, seeing my camera, expressed their delight and told me how fantastic it looked!). I think a large part of it lies in the feel of a 'proper' intercity train, something this line has really been lacking for too long, the Manchester trains aren't some suburban commuter operation, it's an intercity service. The Mark 4s fulfill that whereas the 175s are rather underwhelming.

The 175s still smell a bit of paint since the refurbishment. I absolutely love MK4s on the ECML, but there’s something rather sad and half hearted about them on TfW. I’m sure a proper refurbishment would make them fantastic.

I get the impression that those Swiss bogies already found the ECML to be at edge of their comfort zone I don't share the opinion expressed by some others here that they rode poorly then, but I'm definitely curious to try them on their new home rails.

And regarding the smoking area dividers - I'd never considered them dated at all. I rather like them actually, as they help divide the saloon up and make it a little bit more snug.

Chiefly for me though is the fact that the Mallard seats are more than acceptably comfy, but the 175's are far too steeply reclined

No I don’t share that opinion either, and the full LNER 225 was and still is one of my favourite trains to ride on, but the quality of the ride is definitely worse on the Marches.

Again, I also liked the smoking area dividers as they were pleasantly retro, but on the big InterCity trains that had worked the line for years they seem to work, but it just feels sad and dated on the new lines. To me. I know it’s subjective. Mainly because all the “InterCity” stock introduced elsewhere is brand new, apart from the IC7s at ScotRail, which I have the same sentiment about - except I dislike those far more as at least I always liked 225s (was never a big fan of HSTs)

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this thread is for discussion of TfW Mark 4 sets. If anyone wants to discuss anything else (e.g. Class 175s) then they are welcome to start a new thread if appropriate.

 

[craigybagel]

Just having a look on RTT again and there's definitely more details yet to come with the MKIVs. At the moment there's 2 sets coming off Crewe ATC in the morning but only one going on at night. Presumably tied up with one of the currently missing trains (~1650 and 2015 from Cardiff).

There's no loco at all on that set now. Not sure what happened to 020!

When it came off Crewe ETD I was told it would need to be back soon for a new windscreen, might be something to do with that.

According to the new issue of modern railway tfw introducing a improved swanline service from may 2023

Good to know, I was starting to fear it wasn't going to come back.

 

[GWVillager]

Thank god for that. The white livery will look very smart, I’m sure.


The 175s still smell a bit of paint since the refurbishment. I absolutely love MK4s on the ECML, but there’s something rather sad and half hearted about them on TfW. I’m sure a proper refurbishment would make them fantastic.

No I don’t share that opinion either, and the full LNER 225 was and still is one of my favourite trains to ride on, but the quality of the ride is definitely worse on the Marches.

Again, I also liked the smoking area dividers as they were pleasantly retro, but on the big InterCity trains that had worked the line for years they seem to work, but it just feels sad and dated on the new lines. To me. I know it’s subjective. Mainly because all the “InterCity” stock introduced elsewhere is brand new, apart from the IC7s at ScotRail, which I have the same sentiment about - except I dislike those far more as at least I always liked 225s (was never a big fan of HSTs)

I understand where you are coming from, but it's unfair to judge the TfW Mark 4s against the same standards as their ECML heyday. The ride quality is worse on the Marches, but that's to do with the line and if you ask me they take it quite well - better than other stock at least. You certainly get a feeling of 'gliding on air' that's rather unfamiliar to the route. I suppose that of course the trains on a secondary line aren't going to be as impeccably maintained or refurbished as those on one of the busiest Intercity corridors in the country, but the Mark 4s are giving the Marches something they've not had for a while, and for that I cannot be more appreciative.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

I understand where you are coming from, but it's unfair to judge the TfW Mark 4s against the same standards as their ECML heyday. The ride quality is worse on the Marches, but that's to do with the line and if you ask me they take it quite well - better than other stock at least. You certainly get a feeling of 'gliding on air' that's rather unfamiliar to the route. I suppose that of course the trains on a secondary line aren't going to be as impeccably maintained or refurbished as those on one of the busiest Intercity corridors in the country, but the Mark 4s are giving the Marches something they've not had for a while, and for that I cannot be more appreciative.

Really well put.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I understand where you are coming from, but it's unfair to judge the TfW Mark 4s against the same standards as their ECML heyday. The ride quality is worse on the Marches, but that's to do with the line and if you ask me they take it quite well - better than other stock at least. You certainly get a feeling of 'gliding on air' that's rather unfamiliar to the route. I suppose that of course the trains on a secondary line aren't going to be as impeccably maintained or refurbished as those on one of the busiest Intercity corridors in the country, but the Mark 4s are giving the Marches something they've not had for a while, and for that I cannot be more appreciative.

Really well put.

As I said, the knackered interior feel is the main issue. It’s all subjective. I personally prefer 175s.

 

[Western 52]

As I said, the knackered interior feel is the main issue. It’s all subjective. I personally prefer 175s.

Having ridden in the Mk4s a number of times this month, I have to say I think they are better than the 175s. The internal ambience is better, they are quieter and the seats are comfortable and quite spacious. The only downside is they tend to jerk when the loco is pushing, and as others have said the ride can be lively. They seem smoother along the North Wales coast than on the Marches though. Maybe track related?

 

[43102EMR]

As I said, the knackered interior feel is the main issue. It’s all subjective. I personally prefer 175s.

My problem is the exterior more than the interior - the VTEC vinyls looked worn to the bone, TfW honestly should have repainted them before they entered service like the 67s and the DVTs…

 

[Chester1]

Having ridden in the Mk4s a number of times this month, I have to say I think they are better than the 175s. The internal ambience is better, they are quieter and the seats are comfortable and quite spacious. The only downside is they tend to jerk when the loco is pushing, and as others have said the ride can be lively. They seem smoother along the North Wales coast than on the Marches though. Maybe track related?

I was impressed by them on the North Wales coast but haven't used them south of Chester. Maybe your right about ride quality being an infrastructure problem. They don't seem to be a massive improvement on 175s in terms of passenger experience but the extra capacity is welcome. They are excellent value from a taxpayer payer perspective.

 

[tomuk]

They don't seem to be a massive improvement on 175s in terms of passenger experience

Well it's not surprising as they are part of the same family tree of Metro Cammell trains starting with the 156s. A simplified Mk3.

 

[HarryL]

My problem is the exterior more than the interior - the VTEC vinyls looked worn to the bone, TfW honestly should have repainted them before they entered service like the 67s and the DVTs…

LNER are running their remaining 225s through a maintenance program that includes a full repaint, so surely the TfW will need a maintenance program at some point too given theirs were last done at the same time?

The "good enough" approach of the VTEC livery sort of being the correct colours was a poor decision when they are so run down.

 

[tomuk]

The "good enough" approach of the VTEC livery sort of being the correct colours was a poor decision when they are so run down.

They aren't in the correct livery, TfW livery is grey and red not white and red. But I suppose worn out white 'gym kit in the washing machine' vinyls will do.

 

[Caaardiff]

An internal refresh is quite long over due. As for the exterior, I think the TfW white (grey on new stock for METRO) with red doors is exceptionally smart. What a pity they won’t get that but a morbid black with a dark red stripe. It’ll look ridiculous.

Eventually all Mk4 sets will have the same livery. Whether that means the GC painted white/red to match the current sets or all sets will get proper Tfw livery us another matter!

 

[43102EMR]

Eventually all Mk4 sets will have the same livery. Whether that means the GC painted white/red to match the current sets or all sets will get proper Tfw livery us another matter!

The GC sets were recently repainted, so I can imagine they’ll just receive vinyls and will be good to go.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Having ridden in the Mk4s a number of times this month, I have to say I think they are better than the 175s. The internal ambience is better, they are quieter and the seats are comfortable and quite spacious. The only downside is they tend to jerk when the loco is pushing, and as others have said the ride can be lively. They seem smoother along the North Wales coast than on the Marches though. Maybe track related?

Agreed. 175 seats, whilst relatively comfortable, are too reclined, and if you’re tall, the armrests are far too low to be useful unless you lean to one side. The 175s also all smell like public toilets.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 27/08 5Q79 1719 Eastleigh TRSMD - Landore TMD
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K03279/2022-08-27/detailed

STP 27/08 0O86 1333 Westbury - Eastleigh TRSMD 37611
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R07502/2022-08-27/detailed

 

[ls2270]

Coaches on 5Q79 will be 82230, 11322, 10301, 12316, 12452 and 12210.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Coaches on 5Q79 will be 82230, 11322, 10301, 12316, 12452 and 12210.

I see there are 5 coaches listed there. Has SDO been fitted yet and is that work being done at Eastleigh, Doncaster, Landore or Crewe?

 

[Armchair Bob]

Coaches on 5Q79 will be 82230, 11322, 10301, 12316, 12452 and 12210.

That's set HD07.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Does anyone have an up to date list of which coaches and DVT are in each set along with the set ID (HDxx) please. Thanks.

 

[Armchair Bob]

Does anyone have an up to date list of which coaches and DVT are in each set along with the set ID (HDxx) please. Thanks.

HD01: 12225. 10325. 11323. 12454. 82226
HD02: 12219. 10328. 11324. 12447. 82229
HD03: 12217. 10312. 11325. 12446. 82216

The above are arranged as TSOE, RSB, FOD, TSO, DVT. TSODs 12304, 12315 and 12324 will be inserted at a future date to make them up to 6 vehicles per set, rearranged to the same formation as the ex-GC sets as listed below:

HD04: 12211. 12434. 12310. 10318. 11319. 82201
HD05: 12224. 12477. 12326. 10321. 11320. 82200
HD06: 12222. 12461. 12323. 10330 11321. 82227
HD07: 12210. 12452. 12316. 10301. 11322 82230

The above are arranged as TSOE, TSO, TSOD, RSB, FOD, DVT and were GC sets 1 - 4 respectively.

A spare set is to be made up of randomly selected ex-LNER vehicles, formed in the same way:

HD08: 12215. 12526. 12308. 10305. 11316. 82204

TSOE 12229, RSB 10307 and DVT 82206 were also purchased to be spare parts donor vehicles.

There is also a spare DVT - 82220.