This is a new excuse for a delay

[northwichcat]

18:01 Chester to Manchester Piccadilly due 19:30 will be starting late from Chester and is expected to be 4 minutes late.
This is due to the train departing late to maintain customer connections.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

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I wonder if it's correct. The only service that could have been was the delayed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service that should have been in at 17:52. However, unless it was a disabled passenger I don't see why they would have delayed the service by 7 minutes (in the end). The following Manchester via Altrincham service isn't showing as cancelled. Avanti won't even reopen the doors on a train stopped at the platform if 10 people turn up after a connecting local service gets delayed!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE have started using "short notice change to the timetable" which is a new one on me too

 

[northwichcat]

TPE have started using "short notice change to the timetable" which is a new one on me too

Northern use that too. Often means there's cancelled trains that aren't showing on journey check, rather than cancelled trains that are showing on journey check.

 

[L401CJF]

I've seen this happen before at Chester. The XX:52 LLD-MIA was to be terminated short at CTR due to shortage of staff. It was over 10mins late. XX:35(?) Leeds cancelled leaving an hour gap for the next Picc XX:02 service and 1hr25 for the next Vic via Warrington,NLW etc. So the XX:02 Picc service was held to give passengers heading to Manchester a fighting chance.

Never seen them hold it if the Airport service is actually running (albeit late)!

 

[skyhigh]

The only service that could have been was the delayed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service that should have been in at 17:52. However, unless it was a disabled passenger I don't see why they would have delayed the service by 7 minutes (in the end).

It was requested to be held for 1H92 (by whom I don't know), which arrived at 18.05. 2H35 then departed at 18.08, 3 minutes after the train it was held to connect with arrived. 3 minutes to allow passengers to connect seems fair to me.

Complaints when trains aren't held, and complaints when they are. The railway really can't win.

 

[Prestige15]

There was one time there was annoucement being delayed due to a Wartime Bomb near the railway.

(First annoucement of this clip)

 

[Bertie the bus]

I wonder if it's correct. The only service that could have been was the delayed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service that should have been in at 17:52. However, unless it was a disabled passenger I don't see why they would have delayed the service by 7 minutes (in the end). The following Manchester via Altrincham service isn't showing as cancelled. Avanti won't even reopen the doors on a train stopped at the platform if 10 people turn up after a connecting local service gets delayed!

Why would or should they only hold a connection for a disabled passenger? Don't the rest of us deserve any consideration?

 

[northwichcat]

Why would or should they only hold a connection for a disabled passenger? Don't the rest of us deserve any consideration?

I don't know what the reason was, if the delay was even related to them holding the train to maintain a connection. I just thought it may be possible if there was pre-booked assistance, that a member of station staff could have told the guard that a disabled passenger is expected and the guard was waiting for them to arrive.

 

[WizCastro197]

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

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I wonder if it's correct. The only service that could have been was the delayed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service that should have been in at 17:52. However, unless it was a disabled passenger I don't see why they would have delayed the service by 7 minutes (in the end). The following Manchester via Altrincham service isn't showing as cancelled. Avanti won't even reopen the doors on a train stopped at the platform if 10 people turn up after a connecting local service gets delayed!

Yes we see this one a lot.In The South Central area Maintaining Customer Connections. Assuming it is a service that arrived late and was known to have passengers changing from this train to the other.

(In Hypothetical Train Times )

EG: At Gatwick, The xx:09 arrives from Bedford to Gatwick arrives 7 minutes late at xx:16
The xx:14 London Victoria to Portsmouth Harbour and Bognor Regis is scheduled to leave on time but doesn't due to the high volume of passengers who normally
change onto the xx:14 To Pompey and Bognor but there is only 1 per hour so it waits until xx:22 to leave so passengers from the Bedford train can Maintain their connections?



This is just my interpretation of the Maintaining Customer Connections.

But it could be due to a disabled passenger which I wouldn't mind too much unless I have important place to be if so I would've taken an earlier train to ensure I has plenty of time. It is already hard enough to travel by train as a disabled person why make it harder and make them wait an hour (if the service gap is an hour) or just delay the train by a few minutes?

 

[mmh]

Complaints when trains aren't held, and complaints when they are. The railway really can't win.

Well it could, if it was reliable. It isn't, so it could win by not having timetables with completely unrealistic connection times.

 

[The North Briton]

Northern use that too. Often means there's cancelled trains that aren't showing on journey check, rather than cancelled trains that are showing on journey check.

LNER too. I suspect the issue is staff or rolling stock availability, but it’s impossible to tell. Maybe some sort of directive has gone out from the DfT asking operators not to be too specific??

 

[northwichcat]

Complaints when trains aren't held, and complaints when they are. The railway really can't win.

If someone on the 18:01 Chester to Manchester was trying to make a connection to the 19:24 Stockport to London, then they would have missed it due to the train being held at Chester. Then the compliant would be that another passenger get preferential treatment. Most people accept things can go wrong but most people also hate being treated unfairly. An inconsistent approach leads to complaints, it doesn't prevent them.

 

[6Gman]

Why would or should they only hold a connection for a disabled passenger? Don't the rest of us deserve any consideration?

I think the point being made was that, having held the connection, it may have taken a disabled passenger longer to get from Train A to Train B thus causing a (slightly) longer delay.

 

[Neptune]

This is unreal. People moan on this forum about connections not being held and how the train doors were shut on them and that the guard should have waited for them etc etc….

Now there’s moans that a train has been held for a late connection. Unbelievable.

It would be requested by TfW control and authorised by Northern control after an overall look at the most beneficial outcome as a whole to the majority of passengers. It is not a traincrew or station staff decision as most people think it is.

It all smacks of a me, me, me mentality which is so prevalent on here. The railway simply cannot win. What do people actually want?

 

[ComUtoR]

Well it could, if it was reliable.

Complaints about padding...

It isn't, so it could win by not having timetables with completely unrealistic connection times.

Complaints about padding AND Complaints about waiting times and journey times..

 

[43066]

This is unreal. People moan on this forum about connections not being held and how the train doors were shut on them and that the guard should have waited for them etc etc….

Now there’s moans that a train has been held for a late connection. Unbelievable.

It would be requested by TfW control and authorised by Northern control after an overall look at the most beneficial outcome as a whole to the majority of passengers. It is not a traincrew or station staff decision as most people think it is.

It all smacks of a me, me, me mentality which is so prevalent on here. The railway simply cannot win. What do people actually want?

Agreed.

You realise after a while that certain posters are just looking for excuses to moan and complain for the sake of it.

 

[skyhigh]

If someone on the 18:01 Chester to Manchester was trying to make a connection to the 19:24 Stockport to London, then they would have missed it due to the train being held at Chester.

Which would have resulted in a less than 40 minute wait for the next train. Missing the Manchester train would have put passengers on the next TfW service which was 2 coaches and likely already full.

Then the compliant would be that another passenger get preferential treatment.

This would have been arranged via control, and would only have been arranged for good reasons- such a large number of passengers wanting the connection and the next train being at capacity. It wouldn't be arranged for a single passenger.

Most people accept things can go wrong but most people also hate being treated unfairly. An inconsistent approach leads to complaints, it doesn't prevent them.

On the contrary, the railway is being flexible where on balance it benefits the most people.

This is unreal. People moan on this forum about connections not being held and how the train doors were shut on them and that the guard should have waited for them etc etc….

Now there’s moans that a train has been held for a late connection. Unbelievable.

Glad it's not just me who thinks that.

 

[northwichcat]

This is unreal. People moan on this forum about connections not being held and how the train doors were shut on them and that the guard should have waited for them etc etc….

Now there’s moans that a train has been held for a late connection. Unbelievable.

It would be requested by TfW control and authorised by Northern control after an overall look at the most beneficial outcome as a whole to the majority of passengers. It is not a traincrew or station staff decision as most people think it is.

It all smacks of a me, me, me mentality which is so prevalent on here. The railway simply cannot win. What do people actually want?

Read post #12. It needs to be one consistent network wide approach. If Northern hold a train for Doris but that delays Peter and Avanti refuse to hold the train for Peter, then the public will see the railways as a mess.

Do you remember the Airline series on ITV featuring Easyjet when they were a new airline. It showed many cases of people missing their flight due to arriving late or booking a combination of non-connecting flights. From a PR prospective that worked positively for budget airlines, it told the public we have short turnaround times and if you're not there on time then we go without you. Not everyone was happy about it but they had one consistent approach for everyone.

 

[Neptune]

Read post #12. It needs to be one consistent network wide approach. If Northern hold a train for Doris but that delays Peter and Avanti refuse to hold the train for Peter, then the public will see the railways as a mess.

Do you remember the Airline series on ITV featuring Easyjet when they were a new airline. It showed many cases of people missing their flight due to arriving late or booking a combination of non-connecting flights. From a PR prospective that worked positively for budget airlines, it told the public we have short turnaround times and if you're not there on time then we go without you. Not everyone was happy about it but they had one consistent approach for everyone.

My question would be why someone was going from Chester to London the long way around via Stockport instead of Crewe but then the argument would be a lot thinner without that little ditty wouldn’t it.

I take it from the airline reference you would like to see no connections being held ever for anyone whatever the circumstances regardless of location or time of day. This is certainly what I read into what you want.

You see not all connecting stations have the facilities of even the smallest airport which generally have shops and staff and somewhere warm to get your head down.

So let us surmise that you were on a late train in the middle of nowhere and due to the railway’s consistent approach to not holding connections including the last train (as that would be consistent) you now miss your last connection at a very remote place (plenty of those across the UK). It is the middle of winter, freezing and snowy and there is nowhere to go but the open to the elements station shelter. Would you be happily shivering away for the next 10 hours that the railway had taken a consistent approach?

There’s nothing to stop you applying for a job in any railway control centre and then seeing just how difficult it is to balance everything for the greater good.

 

[py_megapixel]

I say good on Northern and TfW for working together to avoid passengers missing their connection. We need a lot more of this.

A 7 min delay is hardly a major issue for most passengers. Having to wait for the next hourly service, on the other hand, can easily ruin one's plans.

 

[RailWonderer]

If someone on the 18:01 Chester to Manchester was trying to make a connection to the 19:24 Stockport to London, then they would have missed it due to the train being held at Chester. Then the compliant would be that another passenger get preferential treatment. Most people accept things can go wrong but most people also hate being treated unfairly. An inconsistent approach leads to complaints, it doesn't prevent them.

I get your point but Chester passengers change at Crewe to go to London until direct trains return in December.

 

[py_megapixel]

I get your point but Chester passengers change at Crewe to go to London.

To be fair, someone who lives closer to the Manchester end of that line wouldn't. But then, if they were hoping to travel to Stoke-on-Trent or Macclesfield, the Southampton service is only 10 mins behind, and if Avanti wasn't a farce, the next London service would also not be a long wait.

 

[northwichcat]

I get your point but Chester passengers change at Crewe to go to London until direct trains return in December.

Except those who board at Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham. I posted last year that when I missed an Avanti connection at Stockport due to the Mid Cheshire being late, there were 10 or so others trying to make the same connection. It might be lower in the afternoon but there's certainly a chance the number benefitting from the train being held was lower than the number missing out.

 

[Neptune]

Except those who board at Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham. I posted last year that when I missed an Avanti connection at Stockport due to the Mid Cheshire being late, there were 10 or so others trying to make the same connection. It might be lower in the afternoon but there's certainly a chance the number benefitting from the train being held was lower than the number missing out.

I’m sure you were pleased that they didn’t hold the Avanti service for you though.

Seriously though was the reason for the delay actually due to holding it for a connection?

 

[northwichcat]

I’m sure you were pleased that they didn’t hold the Avanti service for you though.

Seriously though was the reason for the delay actually due to holding it for a connection?

I wasn't on the affected service this week, I noticed it on Journey Check.

Like I've said the railways need a consistent approach. Either they do it or they don't. Doing it when they feel like it will annoy more people as it pleases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2022 ==

So let us surmise that you were on a late train in the middle of nowhere and due to the railway’s consistent approach to not holding connections including the last train (as that would be consistent) you now miss your last connection at a very remote place (plenty of those across the UK). It is the middle of winter, freezing and snowy and there is nowhere to go but the open to the elements station shelter. Would you be happily shivering away for the next 10 hours that the railway had taken a consistent approach?

In line with the conditions of carriage, the train operator would be required to provide a taxi if a last connection is missed or even pay for a hotel for the night. That is why they usually make exceptions only when it's the last train.

 

[Annetts key]

A consistent approach is impractical given the number of variables in play. Unless one or more of these options is acceptable:

• No trains held ever for connections,
• All trains held always for connections, even if the late train is empty…
• Excessive timetable padding including long waits in certain stations,
• Reduction of the number of passenger trains, including possibly closing lines to passenger traffic (to improve the reliability of the train service / timetable),
• Increasing the price of tickets to pay for more full time staff (train crew then less likely to be out of position if the train they are on is late, and hence delaying the next service they are booked to work), plus paying for better more reliable infrastructure (that has better redundancy),
• Further increasing ticket prices to pay for additional lines (from 1 to 2, from 2 to 4 or similar) to increase capacity, and expansion of stations to enable longer trains.

I’m sure there are other reasons.

The realty is that the mainland U.K. railways are forever caught in an endless bind. Never enough money to really do all the infrastructure improvements that would improve matters, not in full control of ticket prices, obligated to provide certain service patterns, the list goes on.

Hence there are compromises EVERYWHERE to try to run a system with the available resources. And most of the time, trying to manage to move as many passengers as possible to their destinations in a reasonable time,

 

[390136]

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I wonder if it's correct. The only service that could have been was the delayed Llandudno to Manchester Airport service that should have been in at 17:52. However, unless it was a disabled passenger I don't see why they would have delayed the service by 7 minutes (in the end). The following Manchester via Altrincham service isn't showing as cancelled. Avanti won't even reopen the doors on a train stopped at the platform if 10 people turn up after a connecting local service gets delayed!

Reopening the doors on a 390 would mean the dispatcher walking all the way to the front of the train and asking the driver to reopen the doors. It would incur a delay, and stations get monitored heavily on delays.

If it's a 221, no RA required so once the doors are shut the drivers gone.

 

[northwichcat]

Reopening the doors on a 390 would mean the dispatcher walking all the way to the front of the train and asking the driver to reopen the doors. It would incur a delay, and stations get monitored heavily on delays.

If it's a 221, no RA required so once the doors are shut the drivers gone.

All Manchester to London services are Pendolinos.

 

[Efini92]

All Manchester to London services are Pendolinos.

There’s a daily voyager service under the reduced timetable.

 

[_toommm_]

All Manchester to London services are Pendolinos.

In the current timetable, there's a service ran by a double Voyager:

London to Manchester:

Realtime Trains | 1H17 1020 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly | 26/08/2022

Real-time train running information for 1H17 1020 departure from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 26/08/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Manchester to London:

Realtime Trains | 1A36 1311 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston | 26/08/2022

Real-time train running information for 1A36 1311 departure from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston on 26/08/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk