MG11 received

[RollingTrack]

Hello,

I am after some advice. Last week I stupidly boarded my train without a ticket. I normally buy my ticket in the morning on the Southern app (I wanted to buy a weekly season ticket and put it on my Keycard like I did in my last job so I knew I'd bought the ticket at the start of each week and didn't have to worry about it but in the new location the weekly ticket was more expensive than daily tickets unusually so it seemed more sensible to buy daily tickets). On this occasion my morning train was cancelled, I was debating whether to get the bus or not as I'd been unwell and the bus is a harder journey and I did not get my ticket online. I boarded the train at the end of the day, again my normal train was cancelled and I was thinking about getting home for an appointment, and I forgot I had not bought a ticket that morning.

About 4 inspectors suddenly appeared, and questioned a person near me who did not have a ticket and they asked him questions which didn't sound good. Instead of just saying that I didn't have a ticket either I started to panic. In my last job when I had my weekly pass I often saw the inspector ask people if they had a ticket and the people asked if they could they buy one there and then and the inspector normally said yes, even though I'm pretty sure there were ticket machines at the stations available for them to buy tickets. So I was taken aback by what suddenly seemed quite an intimidating and frightening situation. I stupidly tried to buy a ticket online while they were questioning the other person to then show them I have a ticket/the intention of paying for the ticket and show how I normally buy my tickets on my phone, but unusually the internet connection on the train didn't work. I tried to stall to give me more time, looking for a ticket online in the vain hope that maybe I had actually bought a ticket and forgot I had, or hoping I could get onto the app, and I just panicked a bit more and hoped they would come back to me in a bit like I'd seen many inspectors do (I actually asked them if they could come back to me). But they didn't, they just waited around me, and asked me questions and it was awful and I just wanted it all to end. They then directly challenged me over whether I had a ticket for definite on my phone and I said something like I wasn't sure, I just didn't know what to do, I felt horrendous. I was asked to leave the train and they asked me more questions which I did answer in a somewhat daze, about the buses and trains etc, I can't actually recall all the detail I told them, I think I was very frustrated about the constant cancellation of my trains and how much stress this puts me under with my job Not their fault I know, I just felt exasperated and so tired from just getting myself into work that week.

I am very ashamed of my behaviour and was in shock about it when I get home. My panic I think made me act in way that I would not expect. It didn't seem like how I would normally behave. I was ill all week the week before and was still tired from that and have a stressful job which I am moving from soon because it is so tough at times and I have really struggled to think clearly recently about various situations.

I want to be sensible with the situation I am in and have read the advice on here regarding letters. I am assuming that a letter will come in the post soon for me to reply to. I have already done a first draft of my reply to send them. I am happy to pay a settlement, and am setting up KeyGo on my Keycard so this doesn't happen again because I think it is easy to forget to buy daily tickets if you have a lot on or if the trains are cancelled etc (I know that is not an excuse - I am just trying to look forwards on stopping this happen again).

I wonder if I need to get legal advice about the letter I send back to them. I would welcome any advice on my situation or the letter? I think the trauma alone from this situation will mean I will never step into a station again without a ticket/keycard in my hand. Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It is a criminal offence to board a train without being in possession of a ticket (there are a few exceptions but they do not appear to be relevent here). This looks like a 'pay when challenged' situation and even if your transaction had gone through when you saw the ticket inspectors they would have been alerted upon scanning your ticket, that it was purchased after the train had departed.

I'm sure you've already read the standard advice I give to people who seek our advice in similar situations to yourself but I'll repeat it below so that anyone looking at this thread at a later date can see everything on one place.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. The letter can take up to six months to arrive but 4-6 weeks is more likely. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. Accepting an administrative settlement might seem like a fine but technically it isn't, and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one. We cannot guarantee that you will be offered an administrative settlement, the train company has the right to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they want.

There is no need to seek legal advice at this stage. If you were spoken to by revenue inspectors from Southern (which is operated by Govia Thameslonk Railway) they normally tend to settle out of court, unless the case is very serious or you have come to their attention before.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with person details redacted), along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[RollingTrack]

Hello

Thank you for your reply Hadders.

I was on a Thameslink train. The MG11 says Govia Thameslink Railway and later down ‘I am employed by Govia Thameslink
Railway’ and ‘authorised travel by inspector xxx’

Are Thameslink good for settling?

Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Outcomes of cases we've been made aware of on here suggest that GTR will generally try to settle out of court.

 

[RollingTrack]

Thank you. I will aim to post the letter up here when/if I receive it together with my drafted reply.

 

[RollingTrack]

Hello,

So I have now received the letter I was expecting, I've attached it here.

I am just finishing my draft response and will post it on here.

I would be very grateful for any advice on my letter. Thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Hello,

Here is my draft of my letter back to GTR. I would really welcome any advice on this letter.

Also the letter they have sent me has an area at the bottom of the second page that seems to wants my signature, it says 'signed by passenger' and 'print'. Do I send a letter just on its own without writing on the letter they sent me? Do I include the letter they sent me with my own letter to them and sign the bottom of the second page and the date my own letter was printed? I cannot see how I could drag typed info into the blank space on the second page.

I think I need to send the letter the most secure way, so a tracked option where they have to sign for it and I am told they have received it?

I am slightly concerned that I may miss something that is really obvious.

Thank you for your help.


Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter of 15 August 2022.

On 4 August 2022 I was unable to produce a ticket covering my journey from xx to xx. When the Inspector came round I realised I had not bought a ticket and I panicked. I regret making that decision and I apologise unreservedly for travelling without a ticket.

I currently work in a role which I have found extremely stressful at times and I feel this may have affected my judgement. I have recently been trying to move jobs and have taken the option to move to a different position from September. I was also off work all week commencing the 25 July 2022 with potential Norovirus and was still very tired from the sickness.

I have now signed up to keyGo on my Key Smartcard to ensure this won’t happen again. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and to compensate Govia Thameslink Railway for any costs incurred in investigating this matter.

Yours faithfully,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Hello,

I have changed the last paragraph to the below, if I need to mention about being keen to settle?

I have now signed up to keyGo on my Key Smartcard to ensure this won’t happen again. I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and any additional administrative costs you have incurred in dealing with this matter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Drafted again. Will be grateful for your views.

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter of 15 August 2022.

On 4 August 2022 I was unable to produce a ticket covering my journey from xx to xx. When the Inspector came round I realised I had not bought a ticket and I panicked. I regret making that decision and I apologise unreservedly for travelling without a ticket.

I currently work in a role which I have found extremely stressful at times and I feel this may have affected my judgement. I have recently been trying to move jobs and have taken the option to move to a different position from September. I was also off work all week commencing the 25 July 2022 with potential Norovirus and was still very tired from the sickness.

I have learnt from this situation and have now signed up to keyGo on my Key Smartcard to ensure this won’t happen again. I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and any additional administrative costs you have incurred in dealing with this matter.

Yours faithfully,

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think that your most recent draft looks ok, although others may be along later with detailed suggestions.

As to how to reply, the letter is designed for you to write your response by hand on page 2 (between the bit in blue and where they want you to sign it). If you prefer to respond with a printed letter, the easy way is to write something like 'Please see attachment' on page 2 and sign it, and put your printed letter in the same envelope on a separate piece of paper. And staple the pages together to make it harder for them to get separated!

 

[LCC106]

Is it worth mentioning that the OP was previously buying weekly tickets but had recently changed to daily tickets and that, along with numerous cancellations, was a contributory factor or might this exacerbate matters?

 

[RollingTrack]

Thanks for your reply.
I had actually put this in my original draft but I was worried highlighting the cancellations may seem like I was blaming them. As even if trains are cancelled we still need a ticket. If trains are cancelled the local bus service should be told so we can use our train tickets on there (which I’ve seen happen in the past) but on that day I could have asked for a refund. The sad part is it’s just more and more admin work which adds more stress to the already stressful situation when I just need the trains to run on time on the train schedule they advertise (which I always check before moving job location) to get me to work on time.

Also if I say I’ve now moved to daily tickets they may wonder why and if I say I moved to daily tickets because the weekly ticket was more expensive than daily tickets in my new location they may again think I’m blaming them.

The stress from the cancelled and delays trains has completely been through the roof (my boss has written to her MP about it). The fact the weekly tickets can be more expensive, plus the fact my new job is working in South London some of the week and I want to buy one of the new Flexitickets on my smartcard but apparently you can’t buy it because Flexitickets aren’t possible to use in London (?) and so I still won’t be able to buy any kind of stable season ticket on the key smart card so I won’t have a ticket backup all just seems horrendous to me. I feel a bit set up. Why can’t I put a Flexiticket to travel from Surrey to South London? That would help as I could pay it at a weekend and get into a pattern. The way all the inspectors were around me on the day was so horrible. I think if train companies are going to be so horrific and frightening they need to stick to their side and run the trains at the times they advertise that we pay for.

But right now I just can’t take any more stress and I need this situation to end so I’ll write whichever way will allow me to pay it off so I can focus on my new job and ask train staff the best possible ticket to cover myself from this ever happening again.

I do wonder if I should somehow highlight what you’ve mentioned to explain my side, but I just don’t know how to do it without blaming them and I don’t want to get their backs up ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

Something like this?

I had previously bought weekly tickets in my last job but I recently moved to a new job location and was buying daily tickets as that was more financially sensible due to the weekly/daily ticket prices. It was difficult because train cancellations meant I had to decide daily on whether to try and get a train or divert to using a bus to try and get me to work on time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

@Hadders? You there? Wondered what your thoughts are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

I could maybe add this paragraph in after the first paragraph. I will welcome thoughts on that:

I had previously bought weekly tickets in my last job which I prefer doing but I recently moved to a new job location and was buying daily tickets as that was more financially sensible due to the weekly/daily ticket prices. It was more difficult because train cancellations meant I had to decide daily on whether to try and get a train or divert to using a bus to get to work on time.

 

[LCC106]

I am no expert at all but unless @Hadders suggests otherwise it reads well to me.

 

[Hadders]

I think the letter is fine, and outs across all the main points you need to make. I don't think there's any need to mention changing from a season tickets to daily tockets - most commuters have done this recently anyway.

 

[RollingTrack]

Hello

Thanks @Hadders , so I’m going to try with just the original below and not add in the extra paragraph about the season ticket and cancellations/buses? Does that seem the most sensible?

Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter of 15 August 2022.

On 4 August 2022 I was unable to produce a ticket covering my journey from xx to xx. When the Inspector came round I realised I had not bought a ticket and I panicked. I regret making that decision and I apologise unreservedly for travelling without a ticket.

I currently work in a role which I have found extremely stressful at times and I feel this may have affected my judgement. I have recently been trying to move jobs and have taken the option to move to a different position from September. I was also off work all week commencing the 25 July 2022 with potential Norovirus and was still very tired from the sickness.

I have learnt from this situation and have now signed up to keyGo on my Key Smartcard to ensure this won’t happen again. I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare and any additional administrative costs you have incurred in dealing with this matter.

Yours faithfully

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==

Hello,

My family have suggested I write more detail to try and explain the reasons. I would welcome your views on the below. Does this sound ok?


Dear Sir/Madam

I am writing in response to your letter of 15 August 2022.

On 4 August 2022 I was unable to produce a ticket covering my journey from xx to xx. When the inspector came round I went to my phone for my ticket but then realised I had completely forgotten to buy a ticket and I panicked.

I had been off work all week commencing the 25 July 2022 with potential Norovirus and was still very tired and nauseous from the sickness. My train was cancelled which was stressful because I needed to be home in time for an appointment and that stress, together with still feeling unwell led to me forgetting to purchase a ticket. I very much regret my oversight and I apologise unreservedly for travelling without a ticket.

I currently work helping young people who are often vulnerable and in difficult situations struggling to improve their lives and gain employment, a role I find extremely stressful and all-encompassing at times. I feel this, along with still recovering from being unwell, may have affected my focus and judgement. I have recently been trying to move jobs and have taken the option to move to a different position from September. I apologise to the railway staff who questioned me if I made the situation awkward – I can only say I felt shocked and couldn’t really believe the situation I was in.

I have learnt from this situation and never ever want to be in this situation in the future. I have now signed up to keyGo on my Key Smartcard to ensure this won’t happen again. I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action. I am willing to pay any outstanding fare, penalty charge and costs you have incurred in dealing with this matter.

Yours faithfully,

 

[LCC106]

You have had detailed advice from experienced people who want to help on a dedicated forum. I really think the first reply in your latest post is far more concise, as well meaning as your family is.

 

[RollingTrack]

I guess if anything went further I could argue other points then. I don’t understand why they can keep cancelling trains and not realise the impact down the line on different sections of society so very sad.

 

[Haywain]

I don’t understand why they can keep cancelling trains and not realise the impact down the line on different sections of society so very sad.

It's not ideal but staff shortages and industrial relations difficulties can have that effect but it's doesn't alter the responsibility to buy a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

I guess if anything went further I could argue other points then. I don’t understand why they can keep cancelling trains and not realise the impact down the line on different sections of society so very sad.

That's like saying Tesco's service is rubbish and the store doesn't keep to its opening hours while you're in trouble for walking out of their door with a joint of beef.

I'd keep your concerns about that - justified as they may be - under your hat until this is over. You've committed an open and shut criminal offence here for which you have no defence, so bear that in mind when writing snotty letters in your own defence!

 

[RollingTrack]

I need to post the letter tomorrow. So best to go for the first shorter version I posted, is that the final answer?
@Hadders would you agree?

Sometimes there’s a bigger picture to circumstances but you’re right in the fact I just want to move on. What a nightmare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==

Hello,
Thanks for your advice and views.

I’ve sent the shorter version of my reply today by special delivery and await to see what comes back.

 

[LCC106]

Please keep us posted.

 

[RollingTrack]

Please keep us posted.

Yes I will

 

[RollingTrack]

Hello,

I opened the letter from Govia today offering me a settlement of just over £60 which I paid this evening and the matter is closed. I opened the letter in the street and a man was staring at me, because I probably looked like I was about to collapse I was breathing so loudly, dear me.

Unbelievably I was on 2 trains this week when members of staff said over the tannoy in a cheery reassuring tone that if anyone needs a ticket to just speak to them, despite the first train starting from the beginning of the line and there were 2 ticket machines and a guard in the station who could probably have sold a ticket.

These kind of messages can give the public a sense that it's ok to buy a ticket on a train, like a false sense of security, or that it's not so serious, just like we relaxed some things in my job due to Covid. I have seen people without tickets and the ticket conductors don't seem to bat an eyelid, they just let them pay there and then. So even though there are messages in stations explaining about penalty fares, fines etc, the actual reality people see in their day-to-day lives (and that I saw) is far different. Until suddenly it seems to get very frightening very fast.

I really wish instead that on the train tannoys the staff focused on saying how serious it is if you don't have a ticket. People have told me they have thought that if you buy a ticket on the train rather than before it's fine. But it's not.

I will be telling many people about this to get the message out there more, as it may bring the seriousness of it all more to reality. Maybe there could be adverts on TV, like they do sometimes for TV licensing.

Anyway, I have been doing well with my Key Smartcard tapping in and out, which takes ticket costs far away from using my phone.

I am very grateful for your help. THANK YOU so much for replying to me so quickly with steady advice when I was not far off a breakdown, for taking the time to guide people, for using your skills to make a difference. People I've talked to about this forum have been really impressed by the nature of it. It is a kind thing to do.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for letting us know - that's a good result.

I don't think many people here will argue with you about the mixed messages that the railway can give: clarity would surely help everyone!