Crossrail - Through Running confirmed for November

[grandgarrande]

Funnily enough, looking at real train times, 22 tph will only be running for one hour during the evening peak.

 

[matt_world2004]

They do, to the extent westbound Crossrail joins line 5, but come next May I believe there’ll be no GWR trains heading into Paddington on the conflicting route, ie what would have been line 6. The GWR trains using line 4 towards Paddington will have been on the mains since Slough or somewhere like that. I suspect that’s one of the main reasons for that GWR track access application that was discussed at length in the previous thread back in July.

My understanding is that GwR despite the track access application want to keep running a service that calls at Ealing Broadway, Southall and hayes because the inner suburban revenue is quite lucrative (Particularly as Orcats assigns more revenue to limited stop services. )Ealing ,Hayes are popular stations and there is money there

If tfl slipped them a bung to give up these slots I would expect tfl to enhance the frequency from paddington Westwood to 12tph off peak and 14 peak

I can't see schapps ceading more power to tfl by giving up these slots either. And it would reduce the service recieved by several Tory constituencies (Including Boris Johnsons)

 

[swt_passenger]

My understanding is that GwR despite the track access application want to keep running a service that calls at Ealing Broadway, Southall and hayes because the inner suburban revenue is quite lucrative (Particularly as Orcats assigns more revenue to limited stop services. )Ealing ,Hayes are popular stations and there is money there

If tfl slipped them a bung to give up these slots I would expect tfl to enhance the frequency from paddington Westwood to 12tph off peak and 14 peak

I can't see schapps ceading more power to tfl by giving up these slots either. And it would reduce the service recieved by several Tory constituencies (Including Boris Johnsons)

Yet the TAA clearly refers to an “agreement [by GWR] to relinquish Relief Line services (apart from times of the day and night that Crossrail does not operate)…”

My bolding. I’ve just re-read it and there’s nothing to suggest GWR want anything different. But perhaps this is now drifting off-topic.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My understanding is that GwR despite the track access application want to keep running a service that calls at Ealing Broadway, Southall and hayes because the inner suburban revenue is quite lucrative (Particularly as Orcats assigns more revenue to limited stop services. )Ealing ,Hayes are popular stations and there is money there

If tfl slipped them a bung to give up these slots I would expect tfl to enhance the frequency from paddington Westwood to 12tph off peak and 14 peak

I can't see schapps ceading more power to tfl by giving up these slots either. And it would reduce the service recieved by several Tory constituencies (Including Boris Johnsons)

This is just nonsense now the service should be optimised around maximising revenue for least cost of delivery.

 

[MikeWh]

But works will apply on following 3 Saturdays, (doesn’t mention any Sunday work)

• Sat 12 November - no service between Shenfield and Liverpool Street.
• Sat 19 November - no service between Shenfield and Liverpool Street. Heathrow station will be closed.
• Sat 20 November - no service between Shenfield and Liverpool Street, or between Paddington and Heathrow. Heathrow station will be closed.
• Christmas closures to enable the final phase of the Elizabeth line will be confirmed as part of the usual TfL Festive travel press release later this year

Sat 20th November must surely be Sun 20th November given that the 19th is also a Saturday.

 

[WizCastro197]

Will Bond Street be opened on the same day? Nov 6.? Or earlier

Will Sunday service be in place? If so what would that look like?

I don't have social media. Always found it best to stay away from that sort of stuff.

 

[embers25]

Having a look on RTT for late November it seems lots of the Heathrow trains make a service stop at Westbourne Park sidings for up to 4 minutes.
Does anyone know if this will actually happen, and if so will this remain even when the full timetable is in place in May 2023? If so it represents a bit of a step backwards for those in the west - especially as many of the adverts for crossrail promised quicker journey times, whereas in reality journeys to Paddington may be around 5 minutes slower than today.

The xx27 from Reading sits for 7 minutes at Westbourne Park!!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Will Bond Street be opened on the same day? Nov 6.? Or earlier

"Bond Street station, at the heart of London’s West End, to open ahead of next phase in November "

Will Sunday service be in place?

Yes. Sunday November 6th is confirmed as being an operational day, however there is nothing to indicate that this is the first Sunday. "Ahead of the autumn changes, from Monday 5 September, extended opening hours will run on the Elizabeth line between Paddington and Abbey Wood from around 05:30 to around 23:00" - again, no mention of Sunday for the extended opening hours.

Welcome to Crossrail

Crossrail Ltd has delivered the Elizabeth line - a new railway for London and the South East, running from Reading and Heathrow in the west, through 42km of new tunnels under London to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east. The Elizabeth line has 41 accessible stations including 10 major new...

www.crossrail.co.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

Will Bond Street be opened on the same day? Nov 6.? Or earlier

Will Sunday service be in place? If so what would that look like?

I don't have social media. Always found it best to stay away from that sort of stuff.

1. Earlier, as per the TfL announcement linked in post #22
2. Yes to Sunday services, as per the same announcement.

Dont know the exact Sunday service pattern, they don’t explicitly describe it.

 

[Snow1964]

The xx27 from Reading sits for 7 minutes at Westbourne Park!!

8 trains an hour, which is average 7.5 minutes apart

And a train waits 7 minutes, anyone else wondering if next one might catch it up.

I know westbound one of the 3 sidings is a loop, but can trains actually draw up side by side alternating on two tracks going eastbound

 

[swt_passenger]

8 trains an hour, which is average 7.5 minutes apart

And a train waits 7 minutes, anyone else wondering if next one might catch it up.

I know westbound one of the 3 sidings is a loop, but can trains actually draw up side by side alternating on two tracks going eastbound

Not directly off the up relief/line 6/Crossrail eastbound. The only through turnback (turnback A) is the one alongside the Crossrail westbound line that runs into line 5, which is bidirectional AIUI.

 

[Acton1991]

Yet the TAA clearly refers to an “agreement [by GWR] to relinquish Relief Line services (apart from times of the day and night that Crossrail does not operate)…”

My bolding. I’ve just re-read it and there’s nothing to suggest GWR want anything different. But perhaps this is now drifting off-topic.

Exactly. GWR are actively requesting to give up relief line services. Time to give it all to TfL and allow for a more frequent service for all along the route, not just select stations.

(in my very biased opinion!)

 

[matt_world2004]

This is just nonsense now the service should be optimised around maximising revenue for least cost of delivery.

All Crossrail consultations had a residual 2x hour GwR service from Didcot parkway calling at Hayes Ealing Broadway and paddington. GwR ordered enough 387s based on that service pattern

 

[otter11]

The xx27 from Reading sits for 7 minutes at Westbourne Park!!

This really feels like a step backwards!

I’m also confused why it needs to happen on weekdays, but not on weekends? If you look at a Saturday or Sunday there is no padding at Westbourne Park and the journey times are similar to normal.

A journey from Hanwell to Paddington (for example) is in some cases suggesting to get off at Ealing and join the following GWR service as this arrives 1 minute earlier into Paddington!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This really feels like a step backwards!

I’m also confused why it needs to happen on weekdays, but not on weekends? If you look at a Saturday or Sunday there is no padding at Westbourne Park and the journey times are similar to normal.

A journey from Hanwell to Paddington (for example) is in some cases suggesting to get off at Ealing and join the following GWR service as this arrives 1 minute earlier into Paddington!

There is far more freight (up to 4tph each way) on weekdays, therefore the standard pattern caters for this and it changes which core paths the GWML legs join up with. The alternative would be to run through into a Shenfield slot but that doesn’t suit the phased introduction which is deliberately segregated to allow bedding in - if it doesnt work from day one, no point in completely messing up both GWML and GEML performance simultaneously!

 

[otter11]

There is far more freight (up to 4tph each way) on weekdays, therefore the standard pattern caters for this and it changes which core paths the GWML legs join up with. The alternative would be to run through into a Shenfield slot but that doesn’t suit the phased introduction which is deliberately segregated to allow bedding in - if it doesnt work from day one, no point in completely messing up both GWML and GEML performance simultaneously!

I understand this logic, but still unclear why this wouldn’t also apply at weekends! Surely the shenfield slots would be the same times during the weekend as during the weekday off-peak? Somehow they are making it work at the weekend so I can only assume it would be possible on weekdays too

 

[Acton1991]

This really feels like a step backwards!

I’m also confused why it needs to happen on weekdays, but not on weekends? If you look at a Saturday or Sunday there is no padding at Westbourne Park and the journey times are similar to normal.

A journey from Hanwell to Paddington (for example) is in some cases suggesting to get off at Ealing and join the following GWR service as this arrives 1 minute earlier into Paddington!

This feels like a big step backwards! For people sat on that train, 7 mins will feel like an eternity!

 

[matt_world2004]

This feels like a big step backwards! For people sat on that train, 7 mins will feel like an eternity!

I wonder how often they are going to sit there for the full 7 minutes. Tfl are probably banking on the poor reliability of the reading services to lose those 7 minutes

Also going to be particularly aggrevating when these trains start skipping intermediate stops because of late running only to hold outside paddington for 7 minutes

 

[Watershed]

I understand this logic, but still unclear why this wouldn’t also apply at weekends! Surely the shenfield slots would be the same times during the weekend as during the weekday off-peak? Somehow they are making it work at the weekend so I can only assume it would be possible on weekdays too

Freight paths are often vastly different at weekends, if they run at all. The quantity of freight paths is much lower on Saturdays and barely anything runs on Sundays.

Some freight just runs on one day of the week, but as passenger services are almost invariably the same across Monday-Friday, they have to work around such paths, even for the days when the freight isn't running.

 

[Horizon22]

My understanding is that GwR despite the track access application want to keep running a service that calls at Ealing Broadway, Southall and hayes because the inner suburban revenue is quite lucrative (Particularly as Orcats assigns more revenue to limited stop services. )Ealing ,Hayes are popular stations and there is money there

If tfl slipped them a bung to give up these slots I would expect tfl to enhance the frequency from paddington Westwood to 12tph off peak and 14 peak

I can't see schapps ceading more power to tfl by giving up these slots either. And it would reduce the service recieved by several Tory constituencies (Including Boris Johnsons)

GWR (or indeed their passengers/ passenger user groups) I think are more concerned with the outer suburban / Home Counties stops like Slough and Maidenhead where the journey time differences versus Elizabeth line become more notable as the number of intermediate stops increases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==

Will Bond Street be opened on the same day? Nov 6.? Or earlier

Will Sunday service be in place? If so what would that look like?

I don't have social media. Always found it best to stay away from that sort of stuff.

This is somewhat social media? But the press releases from TfL detail all the info as do various newspapers and the BBC.

Yes there’s a Sunday service. Bond St will definitely have opened by Nov 6th, but could open before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2022 ==

I wonder how often they are going to sit there for the full 7 minutes. Tfl are probably banking on the poor reliability of the reading services to lose those 7 minutes

Also going to be particularly aggrevating when these trains start skipping intermediate stops because of late running only to hold outside paddington for 7 minutes

It’s due to the conflict with other terminating trains from Westbourne Park and ensuring all timetables match up. It would be counter-productive to run trains out of course, but certainly not ideal. That being said services often wait outside Paddington for a platform, although not to the same degree. I think May 2023 looks to remove these substantially.

You seem a bit obsessed about skipping stops when normally some sort of disruption mandates it. Either way, that would be built into a controller’s decision if there’s a heavy dwell or long turnaround etc.

 

[hwl]

I wonder how often they are going to sit there for the full 7 minutes. Tfl are probably banking on the poor reliability of the reading services to lose those 7 minutes

Also going to be particularly aggrevating when these trains start skipping intermediate stops because of late running only to hold outside paddington for 7 minutes

The crazy padding is just till the new timetable in May 2023.

TfL said they could make through running "work" without a TT change with reduced service levels. They didn't say work well!

 

[pilotrobbie]

How does the eventual 30tph work?

12 TPH to Heathrow? 12 TPH to Reading and 6 reverse at Paddington or something similar?

 

[E6007]

How does the eventual 30tph work?

12 TPH to Heathrow? 12 TPH to Reading and 6 reverse at Paddington or something similar?

Whatever you fancy. Unlikely to be 24 tph beyond Paddington (or Old Oak Common).

For starters, I'd take the 24 tph actually running at the time and add 3 extra between Old Oak Common or Paddington and each of the 2 eastern branches.

 

[LB2]

Any information about how auto-reverse is progressing? If it’s accepted it won’t be ready for Nov, will the end user even notice if/when it does get enabled?

 

[Horizon22]

How does the eventual 30tph work?

12 TPH to Heathrow? 12 TPH to Reading and 6 reverse at Paddington or something similar?

There’s no plans for +24tph in the foreseeable future.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Freight paths are often vastly different at weekends, if they run at all. The quantity of freight paths is much lower on Saturdays and barely anything runs on Sundays.

Some freight just runs on one day of the week, but as passenger services are almost invariably the same across Monday-Friday, they have to work around such paths, even for the days when the freight isn't running.

This is spot on, there is usually a maximum of 1tph freight paths on Saturdays, and it is certainly not utilised every hour. The RL timetable is therefore different as the GWR semi-fast services in particularly don’t get held up as much by preceding traffic.

 

[ijmad]

Any information about how auto-reverse is progressing? If it’s accepted it won’t be ready for Nov, will the end user even notice if/when it does get enabled?

If you were looking through the cab window at Paddington you'd see the driver remove their key in advance of an auto reverse (I think I'm remembering that right, correct me if not!).

And of course the most obvious sign would be trains arriving back on the Eastbound with no driver in the cab, though I suppose many would have made it to the other end by the time the train berths at Paddington.

Could the watch the spooky eastbound moves from the footbridge under the A40.

 

[LB2]

If you were looking through the cab window at Paddington you'd see the driver remove their key in advance of an auto reverse (I think I'm remembering that right, correct me if not!).

And of course the most obvious sign would be trains arriving back on the Eastbound with no driver in the cab, though I suppose many would have made it to the other end by the time the train berths at Paddington.

Could the watch the spooky eastbound moves from the footbridge under the A40.

I was thinking more in terms of the timetable, and whether having auto-reverse operational prevents reaching a certain tph frequency

 

[Horizon22]

I was thinking more in terms of the timetable, and whether having auto-reverse operational prevents reaching a certain tph frequency

It does - there’s 22tph max, which is what is happening this November.

 

[bicbasher]

If RTT is to be believed, there are no late night services west of Paddington from the eastern branches. They operate between Paddington XR and Shenfield/Abbey Wood.

Late night services to the west start from Paddington NR.