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Pick up and Set Down Rules and Examples.

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WizCastro197

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Avanti don't want people to board their services at Watford Junction; they will probably instruct you not to board.
Are Services at Euston advertised as stopping at Watford Junction? I was thinking it may be like how SWR don't show the Clapham Junction Call for Weymouth services at Waterloo because they don't one one stop hoppers and want you to board a slow service
 

yorkie

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Are Services at Euston advertised as stopping at Watford Junction?
Nope.
I was thinking it may be like how SWR don't show the Clapham Junction Call for Weymouth services at Waterloo because they don't one one stop hoppers and want you to board a slow service
It won't be treated the same by the staff, though.
 

Mike395

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As well as this, a Watford Jnct to Euston ticket wouldn't be valid, you'd need a (on most services) Coventry-Euston ticket, with Watford Junction being designated Pick Up only in the timetable. Travelling on a Watford Junction - London Terminals (or e.g. a Z1-9+WFJ zonal ticket)) could cause issues in the (relatively unlikely, but possible) event of arriving at a barriered Euston platform, or there being a manual block.

Signage at Watford Junction for Southbound Avanti services is also very clear, a simple 'DO NOT BOARD' appears on all the platform displays.
 

WizCastro197

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But would someone receive any penalty fare or any sanction for doing say going southbound to London? From Watford Jn
 

Purple Train

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How are pick up/set down only rules enforced? I was on the 1400 Norwich-Liverpool Street yesterday that is (I believe) advertised as set-down only at Stratford, yet it was advertised on the screens at the station as the 1542 to Liverpool Street.
Do different companies have different policies regarding enforcement?
 

yorkie

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But would someone receive any penalty fare or any sanction for doing say going southbound to London? From Watford Jn
It's unlikely you'd be allowed to board.

Avanti do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme; in theory they might try to charge a single from the previous stop (assuming a Watford Jn to London or beyond ticket was held) but the legality of this is debatable. I am sure you will find threads on this topic if you search for them.
How are pick up/set down only rules enforced?
If the company wants to enforce them, they can ask passengers not to board the trains and may be able to charge higher than normal fares if people do, but the legality of that is uncertain.
I was on the 1400 Norwich-Liverpool Street yesterday that is (I believe) advertised as set-down only at Stratford, yet it was advertised on the screens at the station as the 1542 to Liverpool Street.
Those trains are indeed advertised on the platform departure screens, and passengers may board, however the trains won't wait for their booked slot if they're early.
Do different companies have different policies regarding enforcement?
Absolutely; there is nothing to "enforce" in the case of Greater Anglia, SWR etc. It's more about crowd management and encouraging people to go to other platforms and/or use other trains.
 

Huntergreed

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Presumably, if one held a Coventry (or the relevant station) to Euston ticket, or an all-line rover, boarding would be permitted?

If so this opens up the debate of, can you 'break' your journey at Watford Junction on a flexible COV-EUS AWC only ticket, or does it need to be an entirely unused COV-EUS ticket?
 

yorkie

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Presumably, if one held a Coventry (or the relevant station) to Euston ticket, or an all-line rover, boarding would be permitted?
Avanti are entitled to deny access to the train for anyone boarding at Watford Jn but if someone did board and, while en-route, presented such a ticket, Avanti would not have any option other than to accept the ticket.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Presumably, if one held a Coventry (or the relevant station) to Euston ticket, or an all-line rover, boarding would be permitted?

Under no* circumstances will you be permitted to board a southbound Avanti at Watford Junction. It is also fairly unlikely that you would get away with it even if you had a technically valid ticket like an ALR.

You may get away with it if they don't see you, but they probably will, and if they do they will delay the train while they remove you.

If so this opens up the debate of, can you 'break' your journey at Watford Junction on a flexible COV-EUS AWC only ticket, or does it need to be an entirely unused COV-EUS ticket?

You may break your journey but may resume it only using LNR or LO services.

* Well, almost none. It's not totally unknown in very severe disruption, but it's probably happened single-figure numbers of times ever.
 

WizCastro197

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If you were boarding in a northbound direction, would you be strongly advised not too? Does Watford Junction attract large numbers of people who use Avanti services northbound to get to Birmingham, Manchester etc?
 

Mike395

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If you were boarding in a northbound direction, would you be strongly advised not too? Does Watford Junction attract large numbers of people who use Avanti services northbound to get to Birmingham, Manchester etc?
You'd certainly have less issue going Euston - Watford Junction on a northbound service, if you were lucky enough to find a service where there weren't pre-boarding controls at Euston. But there's still a small risk you could be charged a full Euston-Coventry single if a staff member did happen to check your ticket onboard.
 

WizCastro197

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You'd certainly have less issue going Euston - Watford Junction on a northbound service, if you were lucky enough to find a service where there weren't pre-boarding controls at Euston. But there's still a small risk you could be charged a full Euston-Coventry single if a staff member did happen to check your ticket onboard.
I think I must've not carefully worded It out (my question)
But the answer does cover one I previously asked
Say I go to Watford and I board a service to Birmingham N street, at Watford would I be asked not to board at all? Or can I board as normal? Does Watford have a lot of these sorts of passengers who get on a northbound service from Watford to wherever? Not Southbound.
 

Bletchleyite

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Northbound services at Watford (to Birmingham) are pick up only, so you may board them at Watford but not alight (theoretically).

Southbound services (to Euston) are set down only, so you may alight them but not board (definitely not).

If what you're after is a short ride on Avanti why not just go to MK and back? The dedicated fares are quite cheap.
 

miklcct

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The pick-up only restriction at Clapham Junction on SWR mainline trains is definitely not enforced at all. The guard just announces it as a normal station call while departing Waterloo, including the usual "first N coaches" message on a long train.
 

WizCastro197

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Northbound services at Watford (to Birmingham) are pick up only, so you may board them at Watford but not alight (theoretically).

Southbound services (to Euston) are set down only, so you may alight them but not board (definitely not).

If what you're after is a short ride on Avanti why not just go to MK and back? The dedicated fares are quite cheap.
I mean it is £20. But I don't live anywhere near there so if I was doing that I'd rather just go to Manchester, stay there for the night and come back. haha

Now that this thread is more generalised, are there any more examples of Pick up/Set down?

I do wish that Vic-Reigate services would become Pick Up only at CLJ and ECR due to the high volume of passengers who choose just to travel to ECR On small coaches trains.
 

JonathanH

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* Well, almost none. It's not totally unknown in very severe disruption, but it's probably happened single-figure numbers of times ever.
I was allowed to board a London-bound Virgin Trains service at Watford Junction around 9pm on the night of 20 November 2005 as the next Silverlink service to Euston was cancelled. While the platform staff gave me permission, this was still questioned when I went to board by the train manager on the Virgin Trains service, who sought confirmation from the dispatch staff.

Basically, the operation of Avanti trains calling at Watford Junction is fully set up for zero tolerance of anyone attempting to board there, but it can happen.
 

WizCastro197

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You'd certainly have less issue going Euston - Watford Junction on a northbound service, if you were lucky enough to find a service where there weren't pre-boarding controls at Euston. But there's still a small risk you could be charged a full Euston-Coventry single if a staff member did happen to check your ticket onboard.
Why Coventry? and Not other intermediate stations? Is it the cheapest fare?
 

Gloster

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Wasn’t there a thread in the Disputes & Prosecutions section about a year ago from someone who had accidentally joined a southbound train at Watford and then been whacked for the full fare from the previous station? I can’t remember the details.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Now that this thread is more generalised, are there any more examples of Pick up/Set down?
Lowland Sleeper (London Euston to Glasgow Central portion) does not set down at Watford Junction or pick up at Carlisle, Carstairs or Motherwell.

Southbound it's no set down at Motherwell, Carstairs or Carlisle and no pick up at Watford Junction.

Highland Sleeper (London Euston to Fort William / Aberdeen / Inverness or vice-versa) also has various set down / pick up restrictions.
 

Mike395

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Why Coventry? and Not other intermediate stations? Is it the cheapest fare?
Most services that call Watford Junction are the Birmingham stoppers (outside of the current emergency timetable) which are first stop Coventry (or Rugby - had forgotten some called there!) after Watford northbound.
 

yorkie

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Why Coventry? and Not other intermediate stations?
Coventry is usually the station before Watford Jn, but it would be whatever it was for that particular train.

Note: it may not be lawful for Avanti to charge for a journey not actually made.
Is it the cheapest fare?
I'm not quite sure what you mean; are you asking if they would charge (or excess to) the lowest priced fare from the relevant station?
I think I must've not carefully worded It out (my question)
But the answer does cover one I previously asked
Say I go to Watford and I board a service to Birmingham N street, at Watford would I be asked not to board at all? Or can I board as normal?
Watford Jn is an advertised boarding point for journeys to Birmingham.
Does Watford have a lot of these sorts of passengers who get on a northbound service from Watford to wherever? Not Southbound.
I'm not sure what the passenger figures are like, but perhaps someone local to the line (@Bletchleyite?) may have a rough idea. I'd imagine it changes drastically by time of day.
Does anyone consciously use fast SWR services to get to CLJ.
Maybe if there was no other train immediately due, which is unlikely to occur outside times of severe disruption. I doubt many people would do this as there would usually be no good reason to, as there are plenty of advertised trains usually.
Wasn’t there a thread in the Disputes & Prosecutions section about a year ago from someone who had accidentally joined a southbound train at Watford and then been whacked for the full fare from the previous station? I can’t remember the details.
Yes, this one:

 
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WizCastro197

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Coventry is usually the station before Watford Jn, but it would be whatever it was for that particular train.

Note: it may not be lawful for Avanti to charge for a journey not actually made.

I'm not quite sure what you mean; are you asking if they would charge (or excess to) the lowest priced fare from the relevant station?
No I originally thought they charged Coventry as it was the next cheapest fare after Watford. I now know why they charge for Coventry not anywhere else or the origin of the train.
 

WizCastro197

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Coventry is usually the station before Watford Jn, but it would be whatever it was for that particular train.

Note: it may not be lawful for Avanti to charge for a journey not actually made.

I'm not quite sure what you mean; are you asking if they would charge (or excess to) the lowest priced fare from the relevant station?

Watford Jn is an advertised boarding point for journeys to Birmingham.

I'm not sure what the passenger figures are like, but perhaps someone local to the line (@Bletchleyite?) may have a rough idea. I'd imagine it changes drastically by time of day.
Thank you . I don’t live there or on that line so I don’t have a broad scope of the line too much

South Coast is my thing haha
 

yorkie

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Thank you . I don’t live there or on that line so I don’t have a broad scope of the line too much

South Coast is my thing haha
Useful sites include:
https://traksy.uk/live (maps)
https://www.brfares.com/ (fares)
https://www.fastjp.com/ (journey planning without fares)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ (train schedules)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_Network_Railcard_map_Dec-2021.pdf (map which includes the Birmingham - Euston part of the WCML along with lines in the South East of England)
https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/where-we-go/our-routes/our-route-map (Avanti route map)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Main_Line (WCML Wikipedia page, contains many links)
 

WizCastro197

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Useful sites include:
https://traksy.uk/live (maps)
https://www.brfares.com/ (fares)
https://www.fastjp.com/ (journey planning without fares)
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/ (train schedules)
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_Network_Railcard_map_Dec-2021.pdf (map which includes the Birmingham - Euston part of the WCML along with lines in the South East of England)
https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/where-we-go/our-routes/our-route-map (Avanti route map)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Main_Line (WCML Wikipedia page, contains many links)
Oh okay thanks! I find it confusing how everything splits at different parts and all of the route but this will help.
 

Kite159

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Now that this thread is more generalised, are there any more examples of Pick up/Set down?
Hull Trains & Lumo at Stevenage (pick up only heading north, set down only heading towards London)

Bolton on TPE (pick up only heading towards Preston, set down only towards Manchester) (also at Haymarket)

Mainline SWR services at Clapham Junction, some peak time services also pick up only at Woking.

GA Norwich services pick up only at Stratford, although they show as set down only heading towards London they get advertised, I believe in the past during the AM peak more London bound GA services were set down only at Stratford due to overcrowding on P9/P10.

Late night services on some routes are set down only for the last train, mix of the timetable being timed for potential engineering works so the trains can run early (thinking about LNER) or to assist with replacement buses if the last train gets cancelled or replaced by a bus
 
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