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Railway Myths

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Scotrail84

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Myth whatever number. It is your companys policy to allow passengers to sit in 1st class free of charge if there is no seats in Standard accom. (this was quoted to me by a passenger because there was no seats) :lol:
 
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Eng274

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I've never really seen the point of DVTs...Wouldn't it have made more sense just to stick another 91 on the south end? It'd give the train a lot more power and speed for only a little extra weight! <D

Myth 3xx+0: Railcard discounts are available on all tickets types at all times. :oops:
Myth 3xx+1: Toilets still should not be flushed in stations. (Only applies to HSTs and railtours now.)
Myth 3xx+2: AToC know what they're doing. ;)

A 91 weighs just under twice (86t) what a DVT does.

Then you have to remember that the 91 fleet is smaller than was originally planned, there wouldn't have been any money to build 2 91s per set, even if they were both half the power of what was actually built. One 6300hp 91 is plenty powerful for its purpose.

Then there's the fact that having two 91s per set means extra maintenance workload, and that at full power it would draw twice as much current from the OHL as it does at the moment, and the grid is at breaking point as it is.

The OHL is not built to cope with 2 pantographs in close proximity from what I've read elsewhere on this forum, due to the vibrations in the cable being too much for the catenary to handle. (someone in the know about the GNER eurostar trials can clarify this).

It would be good if the extra power was there, but the engineer in me just can't justify the extra need for it :(
 

ChrisCooper

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It's mainly the power draw that is the problem with top and tail or double headed electrics. A single electric loco can draw more power than a 12 car EMU, even modern ones. Doubling that is going to put a hell of a strain on the power supply at busy times. 86s and 87s (which can draw more power than a 91) can run double headed on freight, but I presume with some restrictions on power draw (make sure the ammeter stays below a certain level), and of cource restricted in speed (75mph). It would have needed the power supply to be seriously beefed up to allow top and tail at anything like the same power. The need to have two pantographs raised has already been mentioned, and the problems that would cause. Eurostars were fine as they are long enough that the ocilations of the wire have died down by the time the rear pantograph passes, although it can still cause some pickup problems.
 

MCR247

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Myth whatever number. It is your companys policy to allow passengers to sit in 1st class free of charge if there is no seats in Standard accom. (this was quoted to me by a passenger because there was no seats) :lol:

Please not this again!
 

jopsuk

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I believe the formation we have with the 91s+Mrk4s is pretty similar to the proposed production APT, as shown here.
 

tbtc

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Hence why the people who make Great British Railway Journey's probably don't care about whether they reverse footage or not!

There was a programme recently which did a feature on the Penistone Line "ale" trains etc - I think it was Countryfile on BBC1 - and the footage of the woman's "journey" from Huddersfield to Penistone switched several times from 142 to 144 (three car) to 150 - from both external and internal shots - she'd be talking to someone on a Metro-red seat then someone else on a Northern-navy seat... I was shouting at the telly about it and my wife said she couldn't see the fuss... which, to be fair, 99% of people don't.

So the "people travelling between X and Y prefer to use Operator A rather than Operator B" argument doesn't work for me. It may be the case with enthusiasts (but we are the strange people who'll take the slower train to bash new track etc)
 

brel york

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well the mk 4 does have the correct tilt profile and i believe the sig bogies are capable of tilt with modification
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
my missus hates it when im trainspotting on telly ,telling her mu class numbers like shes interested ,just thinks im sad
 

lm321412

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Myth Number xxxx

The station dispatchers at London Liverpool St, fully understand the rules regarding train photography

Myth Number xxxxx

Train Spotting is banned due to terrorism

Myth Number xxxxxx

Class 158 doors are slow

Myth Number xxxxxxx

Class 321 seats are uncomfortable
 

Eng274

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I believe the formation we have with the 91s+Mrk4s is pretty similar to the proposed production APT, as shown here.

Very interesting!

Good that BREL had the foresight to notice the practical limitations of using Jacobs bogies throughout the coaching stock, and limited it to 3 coach articulated 'lots' within the planned production trainset.
 

ChrisCooper

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I believe the formation we have with the 91s+Mrk4s is pretty similar to the proposed production APT, as shown here.

The 225 is basically an APT-U, the only significant difference being that I think the APT-U was to be considered an EMU, not a loco and stock (no blunt end cab for one thing). The 91s themselves take a hell of a lot of their design from the APT powercars, particularly the body hung motors and the transformer mounted below the floor. There was also APT-S (or Squadron) which was similar to U but included articulation. As with the 225, the S and U would have had none tilting powercars since the end powercar would not have needed through access whilst the train was moving.
 

Scotrail84

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Myth xxx the last trains are actually free. (usuallly when you go through them the standard response from the drunks is: here big man is it no free the night)
 

ChrisCooper

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Myth xxx the last trains are actually free. (usuallly when you go through them the standard response from the drunks is: here big man is it no free the night)

They aren't? The only time I've travelled on a last train I got a free ride as there were no ticket facilities (Oulton Broad) and nobody ever came to take my money. Helped that it was a 150+170 combination and the guard was in the 170 (170 had come up from London and joined with the 150 for the last Norwich).
 

Flamingo

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Myth XXXX+1: If the Daily Mail publicises a case of the middle-classes complaining about being caught fare-dodging, it must be all right to have done so and the guard / RPI who checked the ticket must be both rude and a bully.
 

jon0844

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You missed the word jobsworth and/or Little Hitler there. There has to be some reference to Hitler or the Nazis thrown in somewhere. If not in the main copy, soon after in the comments.
 

mrcheek

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Myth XXXX.

The principle of free speech still exists in the UK.
 

Scotrail84

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They aren't? The only time I've travelled on a last train I got a free ride as there were no ticket facilities (Oulton Broad) and nobody ever came to take my money. Helped that it was a 150+170 combination and the guard was in the 170 (170 had come up from London and joined with the 150 for the last Norwich).

Haha not they are not you were just lucky!;).. A 170+150 tied up. Down to 75mph right away. Ive only ever had a 170 and a sprinter (156) tied up once. Nightmare to work. Interesting as its a rare combination up here.
 

Broken Viking

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well the mk 4 does have the correct tilt profile and i believe the sig bogies are capable of tilt with modification
i never said it was going to be tilting but it does have the correct tilt body profile
I believe the original plan was for the 225s to be built as APT-Us in the beginning (With one power car and no tilt) as a cost-cutting measure...With the 91s eventually taken off for use with Mk. IIIs/IVs, two APT power cars being arranged mid formation, and tilting suspension being retrofitted to effectively turn them into APT-Ps. :)

Granted, I'm happy to accept the loss of a power car after Virgin proved that >125mph running wasn't possible without in-cab signalling (Plus the impracticalities of having the power cars in the centre of the train, no matter how cool it might look)...But I still feel let down by GNER and later holders of the EC franchise by the fact that the tilting suspension still hasn't been fitted to the 225s over twenty long years after they were first built! :shock::roll::sad:

I believe the formation we have with the 91s+Mrk4s is pretty similar to the proposed production APT, as shown here.
Good that BREL had the foresight to notice the practical limitations of using Jacobs bogies throughout the coaching stock, and limited it to 3 coach articulated 'lots' within the planned production trainset.
What limitation of Jacobs bogies? As far as my understanding goes, articulated bogies are superior to conventional ones in every way (Less weight, less track damage, less resistance, higher speeds etc.) save for the fact that a Jacob'd rake can't be divided and rearranged without the assistance of a crane! :)
 

tbtc

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Myth XXXX+1: If the Daily Mail publicises a case of the middle-classes complaining about being caught fare-dodging, it must be all right to have done so and the guard / RPI who checked the ticket must be both rude and a bully.

I love the way the Daily Mail describes speed cameras as a "stealth tax" on motorists. Presumably penalty fares are a "stealth tax" on train passengers (by the same logic)? :lol:
 

Eng274

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What limitation of Jacobs bogies? As far as my understanding goes, articulated bogies are superior to conventional ones in every way (Less weight, less track damage, less resistance, higher speeds etc.) save for the fact that a Jacob'd rake can't be divided and rearranged without the assistance of a crane!

That was the limitation I was referring to! It would be a huge kerfuffle to have to suspend coach ends in the air while, say, another coach was removed for maintenance, replaced with another one, then lowered into place again. I feel it would be a maintenance nightmare from a depot's standpoint, and if the sets are intensely used then there may not be enough hours in the night to be faffing about with cranes and swapping cars in that way compared to just shunting it out the way and swapping it.

The production set's compromise is having 3 coach lots, of which one lot can be easily shunted out the way and swapped with a spare lot, to be worked on or individual cars swapped, meaning availability is not reduced by working on individual jacob bogied coaches while it is attached to the rest of the set.
 
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ChrisCooper

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Haha not they are not you were just lucky!;).. A 170+150 tied up. Down to 75mph right away. Ive only ever had a 170 and a sprinter (156) tied up once. Nightmare to work. Interesting as its a rare combination up here.

Well, since I don't think there is even any 75mph running between Lowestoft and Norwich I don't think the speed limit would have been a problem. Interesting thing was the performance, a slow start before the 170 kicked in, then fairly normal up until a certain speed where it was clear the 170 was shoving. I didn't actually realise until after I got off, but did think something was odd due to the performance. Don't know how common it was, or if it is still done. I know Central tended to use 170s and Sprinters quite a bit, and I think LM do too, both passenger service and ECS (I've seen big lines of Sprinters/170s into New Street from Tysley before). Only problem is "sandwich" formations, I don't think you can do 170+Sprinter+170 or Sprinter+170+Sprinter without having brake issues, although I think Sprinter might just be 158 (then again 158+Sprinter seems to be asking for problems).
 

90019

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What limitation of Jacobs bogies? As far as my understanding goes, articulated bogies are superior to conventional ones in every way (Less weight, less track damage, less resistance, higher speeds etc.)

Surely it's more as the weight of the train is being supported on less wheels?
 

Mojo

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So the "people travelling between X and Y prefer to use Operator A rather than Operator B" argument doesn't work for me. It may be the case with enthusiasts (but we are the strange people who'll take the slower train to bash new track etc)
Where I used to work I often used to have people ask me for the time of the next Virgin service to their destination. Even when I explained that the next train was not Virgin but would still get them there quicker as it was the first to depart and that the train could not be overtaken, many still requested for information on the Virgin service as that was the one they wanted to use, regardless of the fact they would reach their destination later.
 

ChrisCooper

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Considering that modern units are bar coupled and pretty much fixed formation anyway, it doesn't really make a difference. It's not like there is going to be much going wrong with an unpowered coach anyway that needs it swapping out of the formation to fix. Even when it comes to standard coaching sets or HST trailer sets, swapping coaches out for maintenance is pretty rare.
 

sprinterguy

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Surely it's more as the weight of the train is being supported on less wheels?
There’s roughly half the number of wheels bouncing off the inside edge of the rails as well though. I’m also led to believe that an articulated bogie centrally hung beneath two carriage ends behaves differently, and acts more kindly on the rail, on curves than a traditional bogie located at each carriage end. The maximum axle weight of a TGV of 17 tonnes (Even on the Duplex trains and the non-articulated power cars) also compares favourably to any high speed passenger loco, and the axle weights of the articulated carriages is probably lower than a comparable EMU with distributed power throughout the train.
 
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Even when the 225 sets were entering service, i believe it was reiterated that the DVT was weighted down enough to cope with such a scenario, to reassure the public if anything else.

A DVT weighs something in the region of 45 tonnes unladen. When you consider its still a short, empty, unpowered van with a cab, it makes you think how much added concrete there must be to bring it up to ~45t.

I believe it's about 9 tonnes. Enough for some chunky lumps of kit to be put in its place, if someone ever decided to use a DVT as the basis for a hybrid test train, something like this. ;)
 

sprinterguy

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I believe the original plan was for the 225s to be built as APT-Us in the beginning (With one power car and no tilt) as a cost-cutting measure...With the 91s eventually taken off for use with Mk. IIIs/IVs, two APT power cars being arranged mid formation, and tilting suspension being retrofitted to effectively turn them into APT-Ps. :)
After a couple of years experience with the APT-P trains, the idea of having centrally located power cars was dropped due to the operational inconvenience of having two half-trains with the necessity to have duplicate train crews in each half, with no connection between the two. The Intercity 225 was a compromise between the APT-S and APT-U: Jopsuk has posted the planned formations of some of these trains: In 1973 whilst the absolutely beastly APT-T train formations were being specified for two power cars and twelve or fourteen trailers, there was also a largely ignored “APT-Lite”, with a single central power car rated for 125mph and eleven trailers. The redeveloped 1981 proposal for this moved the power car to one end of the train, basically becoming the class 91 loco, with a DVT at the other end of the train sandwiching nine articulated trailers, which was the APT-S. APT-U called for an electric power car at each end of the train, with ten non-articulated carriages inbetween (Power draw problems mentioned by others put paid to that, as well as lack of funding and perceived passenger demand).
Granted, I'm happy to accept the loss of a power car after Virgin proved that >125mph running wasn't possible without in-cab signalling (Plus the impracticalities of having the power cars in the centre of the train, no matter how cool it might look)...But I still feel let down by GNER and later holders of the EC franchise by the fact that the tilting suspension still hasn't been fitted to the 225s over twenty long years after they were first built! :shock::roll::sad:
With no realistic possibility of the ECML being upgraded to 140mph running during the 225s' lifetime, why bother installing tilt, which would be an added cost to install and maintain? At 125mph maximum, the best it would do would be to shave a few minutes off times between Darlington and Edinburgh where the route is most sinuous, but the East Coast services are already restricted by slower passenger and freight trains on this section of the route.
 

yorkie

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Myth XXXX.

The principle of free speech still exists in the UK.
If that means dishing out insults, making sweeping judgements against people, and spreading libel, then yes, you're probably right (thank goodness!).
 

deltic1989

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Myth number what are we on now? Penalty fares are unfair and drunk middle class students should ride for free because " thier uncles wifes 2nd cousin runs the TOC" (actually heard this, though I may have mis-quoted slightly)
 

Scotrail84

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Myth xxxx Slam doors will open if you pull hard enough before the CDL is released! :roll:
 
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