Are you entitled to keeping your ticket when exiting barriered stations?

[najaB]

Where is that written ? It is not in the NRCoT.

Interesting. I had assumed it was carried across from the NRCoC but apparently it was not.

The NRCoC stated (my bold):

A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use. Where the company selling you the ticket is not one of the Train Companies on whose services you are travelling, the seller is acting as agent for the Train Company or Companies in whose trains you are entitled to travel.

If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another party (including the right to travel in another party’s transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party. The conditions relating to these additional goods or services may be different, and will be obtainable from that other party.

Tickets remain the property of the relevant Train Company. Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;
(b) the applicable Byelaws;
(c) the conditions which apply to Electronic Tickets, Smartcards, other devices used for storing Electronic Tickets and certain types of reduced and discounted fare tickets as set out in the notices and other publications issued by the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use; and
(d) the conditions set out in the notices and other publications issued by another person if the ticket enables you to use any of their goods or services. Train Companies will ensure that you can be provided with or have access to the conditions applying to any ticket you buy, as well as the Byelaws, before you buy your ticket.

In the case of electronic tickets and tickets issued on Oyster cards, see Condition 9.

What's interesting is that the NRCoT doesn't actually say that your ticket is evidence of a contract:

Your Ticket is evidence of your entitlement to travel on the National Rail Network, as allowed by the type of Ticket you have purchased. It is your responsibility to keep it safe and it should be looked after with care

 

[Gonzoiku]

Mileage claims are wide open to abuse. Also some companies will reimburse car parking and road tolls without a receipt yet want a train ticket.

You remind me of the process used 40 years ago to fund our works Christmas lunch for supervisors. One of us would make entirely fictitious visits to our furthest flung customers (Workington and Linwood from Cambridge) and claim the mileage. But was it abuse? It was suggested (and subsequently signed off) by the works manager!

But the works accounts department made their own arrangements!

GZ

 

[Kite159]

I'm sure wanting a fixed time in one direction and flexibility in the other is actually quite a common situation. It's annoying and slightly surprising that the ticketing system does not cater for this. (It's yet another thing that would be solved in a very simple manner with single-leg fares).

Similar to the old Virgin Trains style, where you can get book an advance one way and buy a half price off-peak single for the return leg

 

[Watershed]

Are you entitled to keep the ticket? No.

Yes, actually! NRCoT 33.1 refers:

You will need to state the scheduled departure time of the train or trains you intended to use for your journey and provide a Ticket or Tickets or other authority to travel which was valid for that whole journey. A Train Company will allow you to retain any Tickets after use for this purpose.

Tickets remain the property of the railway.

That's no longer explicitly spelt out in the NRCoT. Though no doubt some TOCs may still try and adopt that position.

Will you encounter difficulty keeping the ticket if you ask? Rarely.

That's been my experience too. Though I remember that on one occasion, I arrived at St Pancras and needed to retain my ticket due to a delay.

I asked a member of barrier staff to let me through, but they told me to put the ticket through the barrier. It predictably retained the ticket, yet when I asked them to retrieve it they became rather irate! Work that one out...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You remind me of the process used 40 years ago to fund our works Christmas lunch for supervisors. One of us would make entirely fictitious visits to our furthest flung customers (Workington and Linwood from Cambridge) and claim the mileage. But was it abuse? It was suggested (and subsequently signed off) by the works manager!

But the works accounts department made their own arrangements!

However common that sort of thing may be (quite possibly as common as fare dodging), it is clearly textbook criminal fraud, and the manager signing it off is guilty of aiding and abetting.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The obvious answer for those wanting to keep their tickets is to buy an eTicket

I'll be a source for that, and much quicker than that I would expect

Southeastern and Merseyrail enter the chat..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southeastern and Merseyrail enter the chat..

Most Merseyrail journeys these days are on day rover tickets, which obviously are always returned at gatelines.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, actually! NRCoT 33.1 refers:



That's no longer explicitly spelt out in the NRCoT. Though no doubt some TOCs may still try and adopt that position.


That's been my experience too. Though I remember that on one occasion, I arrived at St Pancras and needed to retain my ticket due to a delay.

I asked a member of barrier staff to let me through, but they told me to put the ticket through the barrier. It predictably retained the ticket, yet when I asked them to retrieve it they became rather irate! Work that one out...

The HS1 ticket gate at St Pancras is programmed to return a London Terminals ticket. The reason is that the ticket can be used for onward travel via Farringdon to London Bridge.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The HS1 ticket gate at St Pancras is programmed to return a London Terminals ticket. The reason is that the ticket can be used for onward travel via Farringdon to London Bridge.

Indeed - and not just London Bridge. It's worth being specific on this particular point, so I'll copy the text from NRE's London ticketing page:

Tickets for travel on High Speed services

Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of 'London Terminals' and routed "Plus High Speed" are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and:

• Farringdon
• City Thameslink
• London Blackfriars
• Elephant & Castle
• London Bridge

This is a great benefit, but one that I suspect hardly anyone knows about. I can't recall Southeastern ever promoting this extra availability, and I can well imagine there are quite a few SE High Speed passengers who might benefit from this who are instead paying for onward travel from St Pancras, e.g. by contactless/ Oyster on the Tube or indeed Thameslink.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Southeastern and Merseyrail enter the chat..

Southeastern are using eTickets and MersyRail are moving the same way I believe

 

[SussexSeagull]

I was once on my travels for work and on my way back there was a delay of a few hours caused by, I will never forget this, swans on the line so I got the full Delay Repay. Might not have mentioned this part to my the company I was expensing it to!

 

[najaB]

I was once on my travels for work and on my way back there was a delay of a few hours caused by, I will never forget this, swans on the line so I got the full Delay Repay. Might not have mentioned this part to my the company I was expensing it to!

This particular issue - the rights and wrongs of claiming both expenses (from your employer/client) and delay repay (from the TOC) - is one that comes up from time to time. Some companies have a defined policy, others leave it up to individual discretion.

My personal take has always been, absent direction to the contrary, that the ticket should be expensed in the normal way since the travel was required, and the the delay repay is mine to keep, since I was the one who was delayed, rather than the company. The only time I might consider either not claiming delay repay (or claiming it and not expensing the ticket) is if I was unable to do the work that I was supposed to have done and a second trip was needed. If the delay occurs on my way home then I will always claim and keep the delay repay.

That's only happened to me once, but my employer had the policy that delay repay was mine to keep.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This particular issue - the rights and wrongs of claiming both expenses (from your employer/client) and delay repay (from the TOC) - is one that comes up from time to time. Some companies have a defined policy, others leave it up to individual discretion.

My personal take has always been, absent direction to the contrary, that the ticket should be expensed in the normal way since the travel was required, and the the delay repay is mine to keep, since I was the one who was delayed, rather than the company. The only time I might consider either not claiming delay repay (or claiming it and not expensing the ticket) is if I was unable to do the work that I was supposed to have done and a second trip was needed. If the delay occurs on my way home then I will always claim and keep the delay repay.

That's only happened to me once, but my employer had the policy that delay repay was mine to keep.

My personal take on it is that if it was my time that was compromised it's mine, but if it was the company's time that was compromised it's theirs. So most likely outward theirs, return mine. Though obviously if it's written anywhere then that takes precedent.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Southeastern are using eTickets and MersyRail are moving the same way I believe

I didn't know about SE so fair enough, but Merseyrail will take some time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2022 ==

Most Merseyrail journeys these days are on day rover tickets, which obviously are always returned at gatelines.

Oh yeah, but that's a separate issue of how to prove expenses on a M card!