"Smart" meters spamming from electric supplier

[Dai Corner]

This is the second time such a ridiculous proposal has been made in this thread. My "100% renewable" tariffs have increased in price along with others, reflecting the increase in gas costs. If you want to disconnect me when there is no renewable energy being generated, give me a much cheaper rate!

I understand industrial customers are offered cheaper, interruptible tariffs. They switch to their backup generators when requested.

Would renewable generators accept a lower price for their unreliable electricity to allow "truly 100% renewable" tariffs to be cheaper? I don't know.

It's not just about the money though. If enough consumers signed up we could avoid firing up, or even building, one or more fossil-fuelled power stations to the benefit of the environment.

 

[The Planner]

Interesting story here.

Households set to be paid for turning off washing machines at peak hours

The National Grid ESO is understood to be preparing to announce plans to reward consumers for easing the strain on the power grid.

www.standard.co.uk

Households set to be paid for turning off washing machines at peak hours​

The National Grid ESO is understood to be preparing to announce plans to reward consumers for easing the strain on the power grid.

Households with smart meters could be paid for turning off high-energy appliances such as washing machines during peak times to reduce the risk of blackouts this winter.

The National Grid Electricity System Operator (ESO) is understood to be preparing to announce plans to reward consumers for easing the strain on the power grid....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mention of games consoles is a bit bizarre, they use hardly anything!

This is totally as predicted - a discount for smart meter users, full price for dumb meter users.

Still don't want one?

 

[Dai Corner]

Mention of games consoles is a bit bizarre, they use hardly anything!

This is totally as predicted - a discount for smart meter users, full price for dumb meter users.

Still don't want one?

A misleading headline as there is no way of telling what the electricity is being used for, of course.

But bring it on, I'll happily wait until after 8pm to cook my dinner, or have my main meal at lunchtime if it saves me a couple of quid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A misleading headline as there is no way of telling what the electricity is being used for, of course.

Indeed, though it correctly highlighted things (washing machines for instance) that are very electricity heavy. Just incorrectly identified one thing that isn't. Though I'm sure some parents will use it as a decent excuse to stop their kids getting "square eyes" just like "you're not using the phone until after 6!" of my childhood.

But bring it on, I'll happily wait until after 8pm to cook my dinner, or have my main meal at lunchtime if it saves me a couple of quid.

Well, quite. And if I don't want to save money or really need a shirt washed, I can just ignore it and be no worse off than a "dumb meter" user.

Future smart meters may be able to communicate with certain devices that can switch into a lower power mode for a while without issues, such as a freezer provided you don't open the door*, or asking phones to stop charging for an hour or so if you've plugged in overnight** as it can catch up later, but current ones can't, it's all just electricity.

It is possible they'll offer new tariffs in future such as dynamic ones that price both higher and lower than "dumb" or are influenced by exactly what you're using (e.g. charging cars), but just like Economy 7/10 you choose them or don't depending on your needs.

* To be fair, freezers themselves may improve their tech for lower power consumption anyway. At present it's just a fairly "blunt instrument" air temperature thermostat in the attached fridge that controls most of them, but the air temperature isn't that important, it's the temperature of the actual food you're trying to prevent spoiling. They also have much thinner insulation than they really should have.

** iPhones already assume if you plug in at your normal bedtime that you're charging overnight, and so use electronic control to make the charge take until your alarm is set for (or about 6hrs if you've not set one), which means better battery longevity as the faster you charge the more heat is an issue for the battery, so if you can deliberately charge slowly the battery will have a longer useful life.

 

[Dai Corner]

Though I'm sure some parents will use it as a decent excuse to stop their kids getting "square eyes"

The kids who've been listening (and correctly taught) in their science lessons will able to argue back effectively!

They [freezers] also have much thinner insulation than they really should have.

To maximise the capacity for given external dimensions.

I'm not going attempt an analysis of whether more frequent shopping trips will outweigh the reduced energy consumption of a better-insulated freezer in financial or environmental terms

 

[Bletchleyite]

To maximise the capacity for given external dimensions.

I'm not going attempt an analysis of whether more frequent shopping trips will outweigh the reduced energy consumption of a better-insulated freezer in financial or environmental terms

Or just a bigger freezer. A small kitchen wouldn't work with it, but plenty of people are buying very large free standing fridges and freezers for their looks (e.g. American 1950s style) despite not needing the huge capacity they offer. Built in ones gain a bit of extra insulation from the surrounding cupboards, provided they vent the heat out properly.

 

[AM9]

Mention of games consoles is a bit bizarre, they use hardly anything!

This is totally as predicted - a discount for smart meter users, full price for dumb meter users.

Still don't want one?

It could be said:" -, full price for smart meter refusers" which will gradually persuade all but the most paranoid to get a smart meter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be said:" -, full price for smart meter refusers" which will gradually persuade all but the most paranoid to get a smart meter.

Indeed. You can pay full price, or you can choose to have a free smart meter which will offer you discounts. Your choice.

Some people still walk up to Kings Cross booking office and buy a First Anytime Single to Edinburgh for £271, or Standard for a still hefty £173. Most people use an electronic device of some kind to get an Advance. (Yes, you can get them from the booking office but in 2022 hardly anybody is doing).

 

[AM9]

Or just a bigger freezer. A small kitchen wouldn't work with it, but plenty of people are buying very large free standing fridges and freezers for their looks (e.g. American 1950s style) despite not needing the huge capacity they offer. Built in ones gain a bit of extra insulation from the surrounding cupboards, provided they vent the heat out properly.

Actually the major driver of freezer energy consumption is the environment that they are located in. Many people locate theirs in a utility room or a garage were the temperature is normally lower that that of a kitchen. I am considering providing an external air inlet/vent specifically for our kitchen located refrigeration appliances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually the major driver of freezer energy consumption is the environment that they are located in. Many people locate theirs in a utility room or a garage were the temperature is normally lower that that of a kitchen. I am considering providing an external air inlet/vent specifically for our kitchen located refrigeration appliances.

Were they better insulated this would, obviously, have less of an effect. But yes, the move from a chest freezer in a cold space e.g. a garage to a fridge freezer in a warm space e.g. a kitchen will have increased consumption.

Depending on the nature of your space the heat kicked out indoors is not necessarily wasted, of course. Those who have an open plan kitchen-lounge may find it's saving a few pence (though probably no more than that) on heating it. Those who have a separate, mostly unheated kitchen probably don't gain anything. Old style tungsten light bulbs were only really wasting lots of energy in summer, because the heat kicked out by them in winter would warm the room, though getting rid is cheaper as gas is cheaper per kWh than electricity, and heating the top of the room is a bit less efficient than heating where you are lower down.

 

[duncanp]

One thing that would persuade people to have a smart meter is if the amount they were charged for their energy reflected their actual usage.

People who pay by direct debit are seeing their monthy payments increase by way more that the increase in the price per unit each time the energy price cap goes up, and even when it doesn't.

No more estimated bills?

My backside - no more estimated bills

 

[Dai Corner]

Were they better insulated this would, obviously, have less of an effect. But yes, the move from a chest freezer in a cold space e.g. a garage to a fridge freezer in a warm space e.g. a kitchen will have increased consumption.

Depending on the nature of your space the heat kicked out indoors is not necessarily wasted, of course. Those who have an open plan kitchen-lounge may find it's saving a few pence (though probably no more than that) on heating it. Those who have a separate, mostly unheated kitchen probably don't gain anything.

My fridge-freezer is in the kitchen, which I don't spend money heating. It seems to get confused if the temperature falls too low and stops cooling.

 

[D365]

I never realised that Smart Water meters existed until Anglia Water emailed 3 weeks ago and fitted it some point this week.

I have recently moved into a 1920s property served by SevernTrent water, who promptly offered to fit a water meter. It will be interesting to see if you save any money with the smart meter; I decided against having one fitted, as the best case saving was less than £100 per annum.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

One thing that would persuade people to have a smart meter is if the amount they were charged for their energy reflected their actual usage.

People who pay by direct debit are seeing their monthy payments increase by way more that the increase in the price per unit each time the energy price cap goes up, and even when it doesn't.

No more estimated bills?

My backside - no, more estimated bills

Fixed that for you! But yes, this is exactly why I am reticent about smart metering. It's doing nothing to help me out.

 

[Dai Corner]

I have recently moved into a 1920s property served by SevernTrent water, who promptly offered to fit a water meter. It will be interesting to see if you save any money with the smart meter; I decided against having one fitted, as the best case saving was less than £100 per annum.

I suppose the saving is (eventually, once the cost of installation is recovered) to the water company in reduced reading costs.

Do smart water meters have the ability to restrict flow or charge more during peak demand or drought?

 

[Busaholic]

I've heard a lot of conspiracy theories about smart meters, but never one involving them catching fire.

OK, first of all I think it rather unlikely that an ex-Senior Probation Officer is likely to be taken in by bizarre conspiracy theories. I can't do links, but look up 'smart meters catching fire UK' and the first item is a BBC Watchdog investigation which found multiple cases. This followed a whole series of reports on Radio Four 'You and Yours' about the many disadvantages of smart meters, including fire hazards, and lots of newspaper reports in non-tabloid papers.

On the matter of high rise flats, I've never lived in one, but I found a possible problem raised by the electricity industry itself on one of their websites, relating to it working, nothing to do with fires. Though, come to think of it, we handle possible fires in high rise flats so well in this country, don't we?

Oh, and video of outside smart meter on fire, spreading to the house on YouTube: I didn't look for further examples'

Of course, I realise this forum is infested with conspiracy theorists who will claim you cannot believe anything the BBC or 'mainstream media' report so will pooh-pooh all this, but perhaps you should at least admit your ignorance in your remark.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is quite possible that a badly installed smart meter caught fire. Smart meters are not in themselves a fire risk, badly installed electrical equipment of any kind is.

I think this may be down to the fact that some companies were using disreputable, cheap installers to do them. I very much doubt that that is the case now following that small number of reported incidents.

 

[AM9]

I suppose the saving is (eventually, once the cost of installation is recovered) to the water company in reduced reading costs.

Do smart water meters have the ability to restrict flow or charge more during peak demand or drought?

I doubt it. Domestic water meters are just metering turbines, they don't have any power to to adjust a valve that could manipulate the cunsumer's demand.

It is quite possible that a badly installed smart meter caught fire. Smart meters are not in themselves a fire risk, badly installed electrical equipment of any kind is.

That's my view. For quite some time, replacement electricity meters have been fully electronic with a true power sensor circuit and a LCD display. In fire risk terms, there's no difference between one of those and the latest smart meters. Truy theu have a GSM interface but that is probably more power efficient than the much less capable electronics of non-smart meters of (say) 20 years ago. So whilst the story of meter installations catching fire is probably true, attributing their incineration is nothing to do with their being 'smart', but of course to a untrained (or unprincipled) hack, it does mean that a report of a mundane event grabs the attention of those who want to believe it.

 

[Domh245]

OK, first of all I think it rather unlikely that an ex-Senior Probation Officer is likely to be taken in by bizarre conspiracy theories. I can't do links, but look up 'smart meters catching fire UK' and the first item is a BBC Watchdog investigation which found multiple cases. This followed a whole series of reports on Radio Four 'You and Yours' about the many disadvantages of smart meters, including fire hazards, and lots of newspaper reports in non-tabloid papers.

As @Bletchleyite and @AM9 theorised..

BBC One - Watchdog - Smart Meter Installations

27/07/17 House fires believed to have occurred as a result of poorly-fitted smart meters.

www.bbc.co.uk

Smart Meter Installations​

House fires believed to have occurred as a result of poorly-fitted smart meters.
Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy

A BEIS spokesperson said:
“In the first half of 2017, there have been only 18 reported installation issues of this nature in the fitting of more than 3 million meters during the same period.
The public’s safety is the number one priority for Government. We work together with energy suppliers and network operators to continuously review safety trends and have seen no evidence of increasing safety risks. Engineers undergo extensive training and the roll-out is a unique opportunity to improve safety by dealing with potential issues around older meters and connections.”
British Gas statement:
“We operate to the highest possible safety standards, as safety is our number one priority. Smart meters are safe, and our processes for installing them are industry-leading.
All of our Smart Energy Experts receive 12 months of training resulting in a City and Guilds QF level 2 qualification, initially at one of the British Gas academies, which are rated 'outstanding' by Ofsted. They also receive on-going support to ensure that they are maintaining an excellent service for our customers. We conduct frequent checks after installations: these confirm that the standard of installation work by our engineers is very high, matching the quality of training we provide and the overriding priority we attach to safety in everything we do at British Gas.
In addition to working on meters our Smart Energy Experts perform a number of additional safety related checks. So far this year our Smart Energy Experts have identified over 4,000 appliances which we think were operating unsafely. For the majority of customers this has allowed them to arrange a repair with a Gas Safe registered engineer. In many cases the customer did not fully understand the consequences of a defective appliance and was grateful for being informed of the risk.”
Lou & Paul Lynch
“A comprehensive investigation of this incident has confirmed that there was no fault with our processes, or the equipment installed. This was an extremely rare instance of human error. Our installation process reflects the importance we put on safety in our training and operations, and we are very sorry that on this occasion one of our engineers did not follow our technical procedures correctly. This mistake had nothing to do with smart meter technology. The engineer involved has since left the business.”
OVO Energy spokesperson statement:
“Our investigations found no evidence to confirm the smart meter was the cause of the fire and the official fire report came back as inconclusive. The installation took place six months prior to the fire and our installation
partner’s records show it was carried out in line with safety procedures.
We offered to cover the cost of a hotel but Ms Devall’s preference was to stay on-site in a caravan. We continued to offer accommodation for Ms Devall, who remains an OVO customer, after the investigation ended and the fire report came back as inconclusive, as we did not want to remove the support we had put in place
until alternative arrangements were made.”
Lawrence Slade, chief executive of Energy UK, statement:
“Health and safety is the industry’s number one priority and, irrespective of any deadline, energy companies will always ensure installations are carried out to the highest safety standards. In fact, in many cases installers are actually highlighting potential safety issues within peoples’ homes by identifying faulty appliances, with 18,000 safety notices issued this year alone.”

Nothing to do with the meters, entirely to do with a shoddy installation which would just as likely happen with a 'dumb' meter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's my view. For quite some time, replacement electricity meters have been fully electronic with a true power sensor circuit and a LCD display. In fire risk terms, there's no difference between one of those and the latest smart meters. Truy theu have a GSM interface but that is probably more power efficient than the much less capable electronics of non-smart meters of (say) 20 years ago. So whilst the story of meter installations catching fire is probably true, attributing their incineration is nothing to do with their being 'smart', but of course to a untrained (or unprincipled) hack, it does mean that a report of a mundane event grabs the attention of those who want to believe it.

You need look no further than COVID Twitter for people twisting reports for their own ends, both ways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

Nothing to do with the meters, entirely to do with a shoddy installation which would just as likely happen with a 'dumb' meter.

The only thing that would push it towards sort-of being related would be that in the rush to get them out there initially cheap, poorly trained installers were used. That won't happen now as that "rush" is over.

 

[DelayRepay]

One thing that would persuade people to have a smart meter is if the amount they were charged for their energy reflected their actual usage.

People who pay by direct debit are seeing their monthy payments increase by way more that the increase in the price per unit each time the energy price cap goes up, and even when it doesn't.

No more estimated bills?

My backside - no more estimated bills

I don't really understand this point?

I have a smart meter and am charged for the energy I use. I always have been, the only difference is that the smart meter sends the readings automatically instead of me having to remember to do it manually.

I think the confusion is from people who pay a fixed monthly amount by Direct Debit. The idea being that you overpay in the summer to build up credit for the winter. Personally I am happy with this arrangement. If I wasn't, then I could opt to pay the actual amount owed on receipt of the bill (which would be accurate based on either my smart meter readings, or previously my manual readings). I'd obviously have to budget accordingly and make sure I had enough funds put aside to cover the higher bills over winter. There's a debate to be had about how best to set the direct debit amount, but it's nothing to do with smart meters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

You need look no further than COVID Twitter for people twisting reports for their own ends, both ways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==



The only thing that would push it towards sort-of being related would be that in the rush to get them out there initially cheap, poorly trained installers were used. That won't happen now as that "rush" is over.

Fortunately, my smart meters have not yet caught fire.

However, I did have a gas leak after I had a new boiler installed (by a fully registered Gas Safe engineer who came recommended by several people I know). The Cadent emergency guy fixed it but by this logic I should be arguing that nobody should have a new boiler installed because it causes gas leaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the confusion is from people who pay a fixed monthly amount by Direct Debit. The idea being that you overpay in the summer to build up credit for the winter. Personally I am happy with this arrangement. If I wasn't, then I could opt to pay the actual amount owed on receipt of the bill (which would be accurate based on either my smart meter readings, or previously my manual readings). I'd obviously have to budget accordingly and make sure I had enough funds put aside to cover the higher bills over winter. There's a debate to be had about how best to set the direct debit amount, but it's nothing to do with smart meters.

Indeed. I used to do direct debit actuals (which some suppliers do still offer) and switched to payment plan when I switched to Monzo Bank as it makes the automatic budgeting work better. It's like a savings stamp scheme. I think a lot of people don't understand that's what it is, and instead think the supplier holding a surplus in summer is running some sort of scam. They're not, they're just acting like a bank, it's your money and you can have it back and switch to actuals if you want. Yes, they'll earn a bit of interest on it, but with rates as they are it's tiny and is unlikely to impact their profits significantly. If you prefer to do that yourself using a bank account you are of course at liberty to do so if you wish, but then you have to work it out yourself, which generally, unless "thrown off" by something odd* causing a massive spike in usage one month, does seem to be worked out pretty well by the suppliers' algorithms.

Those who ring their suppliers up and tell them to reduce the DD massively rather than tweak it a bit as they plan to reduce their usage e.g. by setting the thermostat lower this year (which they'll usually happily do) and think they've got some sort of victory by doing so in summer, are going to get more of a shock than the next price increase due to that lack of understanding.

I've never been a huge fan of the ultra-tabloid Martin Lewis, but one big disservice he is doing to his readers at present is not explaining that properly, the result of which will be big unexpected demands in December when they can least be afforded.

* e.g. a faulty fridge thermostat causing it to be on all the time, or a heating boiler failure causing a large usage of electric heating for a short period.

 

[DelayRepay]

* e.g. a faulty fridge thermostat causing it to be on all the time, or a heating boiler failure causing a large usage of electric heating for a short period.

In other words, the kind of issue that's likely to be discovered, and therefore fixed, much quicker by someone with a Smart Meter!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In other words, the kind of issue that's likely to be discovered, and therefore fixed, much quicker by someone with a Smart Meter!

Very true, otherwise you only start noticing it when your fridge starts to ice up and your bills slowly increase!

 

[jon0844]

Of course, I realise this forum is infested with conspiracy theorists who will claim you cannot believe anything the BBC or 'mainstream media' report so will pooh-pooh all this, but perhaps you should at least admit your ignorance in your remark.

Ignorance?

The report says this from the outset:

'House fires believed to have occurred as a result of poorly-fitted smart meters.'

Which means what I said was 100% correct.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I don't have a smart meter and I've never been offered one, neither have I asked for one. I just read my meter once a month, when British Gas ask and I enter the numbers on their website.

I don't have or want a smart phone.

Smart motorways scare the hell out of me.

Perhaps we should start a threat about "smart" things, or not so smart.

Well exactly, smart meters are a classic example of "solving a problem that doesn't exist". Despite what the energy companies say, it really isn't difficult to read your meters once a month and email the readings to your supplier. So if smart meters offer no practical benefit to the consumer, why are the energy companies so desperate to push us all into having one? Little wonder many of us suspect them of having more sinister motives.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well exactly, smart meters are a classic example of "solving a problem that doesn't exist". Despite what the energy companies say, it really isn't difficult to read your meters once a month and email the readings to your supplier. So if smart meters offer no practical benefit to the consumer, why are the energy companies so desperate to push us all into having one? Little wonder many of us suspect them of having more sinister motives.

Because they're set targets by the regulators and fined if they don't meet them.

Some of the 'problems that don't exist' are

1. that some consumers don't or can't read their meters and don't give suppliers access to do so.
2. that supplying peak demand is very expensive and as noted above smart meters will help reduce that demand resulting in lower prices and greater security of supply.

 

[Kite159]

Well exactly, smart meters are a classic example of "solving a problem that doesn't exist". Despite what the energy companies say, it really isn't difficult to read your meters once a month and email the readings to your supplier. So if smart meters offer no practical benefit to the consumer, why are the energy companies so desperate to push us all into having one? Little wonder many of us suspect them of having more sinister motives.

It's so in the future they can hike the cost of using electric during so called peak hours to encourage people to use less electric during those hours.

Great for those who work from home and can do washing during the day etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well exactly, smart meters are a classic example of "solving a problem that doesn't exist". Despite what the energy companies say, it really isn't difficult to read your meters once a month and email the readings to your supplier.

It is however nonzero effort. And the supplier saves money by not needing to pay someone to interpret those emails nor to come round periodically to check you're not lying.

So if smart meters offer no practical benefit to the consumer, why are the energy companies so desperate to push us all into having one?

Because it saves them money.

Little wonder many of us suspect them of having more sinister motives.

There's nothing sinister about saving money. It's like suggesting there's something sinister about the railway preferring you to use TVMs or e-tickets than a booking office window.

 

[jon0844]

Well exactly, smart meters are a classic example of "solving a problem that doesn't exist". Despite what the energy companies say, it really isn't difficult to read your meters once a month and email the readings to your supplier. So if smart meters offer no practical benefit to the consumer, why are the energy companies so desperate to push us all into having one? Little wonder many of us suspect them of having more sinister motives.

How can you tell what appliances used what power if you simply read a meter once a month?

I can see the impact of everything I do in almost real time (there's a delay maybe of 15-20 seconds). I can investigate if the power goes up to see if I've left something on, and with some PCs and game consoles using 200-300W, it all helps control usage when it matters.

Same with the gas.

If you don't care about the benefits, you can treat a smart meter as a normal dumb meter and just let it save you reading the number every month. Bin the screen and just wait for your bill as before.