Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Dr Hoo]

NOT intended to be ‘thread drift’ but by way of comparison consider Bamford to Sheffield (as a Peak District comparator).

Bamford station is around three-quarters of a mile from the village, noticeably ‘downhill’, which becomes very obvious when returning home. Hulleys bus (Routes 256/7) passes the station but also runs through the middle of the village and also past Thornhill and Ladybower. In Sheffield it passes Hallamshire Hospital, the University, The Moor shopping area and so on, before ending up near Sheffield station, at the Interchange. Whilst the station to station time is significantly more than the train an actual trip from ‘home’ to ‘town’ is much simpler and actually quicker by bus, hence probably the default or primary option for most locals.

(Yes, I know that the bus doesn’t run in the evening but very few have the need to travel then.)

Rural bus routes aren’t always ‘useless’, ‘miserable’ and so on.

 

[InkyScrolls]

It has an odd timetable. I think all the buses go back to Morecambe each night - I don't think Kirkby Lonsdale have any outstations

They sort of do, but only for school traffic - KLCH have an agreement with the Yorkshire Dales Railway to keep coaches at Embsay railway station overnight on weekdays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

And exactly how many people would be commuting into Settle of a morning????

Going by my experience of working the railway, quite a few.

 

[randyrippley]

One point in all this. The A65 is slow and full of traffic. In summer it's a continuous traffic jam. Anyone thinking of running a reliable service on it is living in an alternate reality

 

[Ken H]

One point in all this. The A65 is slow and full of traffic. In summer it's a continuous traffic jam. Anyone thinking of running a reliable service on it is living in an alternate reality

And some interesting pile ups. And when there are temporary traffic lights it can be a nightmare.

 

[London Trains]

Realistically a bus service could definitely work and serve the places along the line better than the current train service if this was done:

Build platforms on the WCML at Carnforth and stop TPE services there (a bus would not serve Carnforth as it is quite far out of the way on the road network).

Improve services to Settle by alternating a 1tp2h Leeds to Settle shuttle (calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston) with the 1tp2h service on the S&C. I assume a crossover at Settle would be required.

Change the Morecambe service into a 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe shuttle.

Then I would have an express bus running from Lancaster to Settle with route and stops shown below:

Lancaster Station
Lancaster Bus Station
(A589, A683, B6480 - 81 bus serves all places between Lancaster and Wennington along this road)
Wennington
(B6480)
Low Bentham
(B6480)
Bentham
(B6480)
Clapham (not the station, the village)
(A6, B6480)
Giggleswick (not the station, the village)
(B6480)
Settle

Buses would run hourly, with good connections at Settle to train services both to and from Leeds.

 

[yorksrob]

NOT intended to be ‘thread drift’ but by way of comparison consider Bamford to Sheffield (as a Peak District comparator).

Bamford station is around three-quarters of a mile from the village, noticeably ‘downhill’, which becomes very obvious when returning home. Hulleys bus (Routes 256/7) passes the station but also runs through the middle of the village and also past Thornhill and Ladybower. In Sheffield it passes Hallamshire Hospital, the University, The Moor shopping area and so on, before ending up near Sheffield station, at the Interchange. Whilst the station to station time is significantly more than the train an actual trip from ‘home’ to ‘town’ is much simpler and actually quicker by bus, hence probably the default or primary option for most locals.

(Yes, I know that the bus doesn’t run in the evening but very few have the need to travel then.)

Rural bus routes aren’t always ‘useless’, ‘miserable’ and so on.

Pointing out that buses aren't always useless etc, isn't an adequate justification for closing railway stations. In the case of Bamford the station still gets plenty of passengers, so both clearly have their place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Realistically a bus service could definitely work and serve the places along the line better than the current train service if this was done:

Build platforms on the WCML at Carnforth and stop TPE services there (a bus would not serve Carnforth as it is quite far out of the way on the road network).

Improve services to Settle by alternating a 1tp2h Leeds to Settle shuttle (calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston) with the 1tp2h service on the S&C. I assume a crossover at Settle would be required.

Change the Morecambe service into a 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe shuttle.

Then I would have an express bus running from Lancaster to Settle with route and stops shown below:

Lancaster Station
Lancaster Bus Station
(A589, A683, B6480 - 81 bus serves all places between Lancaster and Wennington along this road)
Wennington
(B6480)
Low Bentham
(B6480)
Bentham
(B6480)
Clapham (not the station, the village)
(A6, B6480)
Giggleswick (not the station, the village)
(B6480)
Settle

Buses would run hourly, with good connections at Settle to train services both to and from Leeds.

It would not be better than the train service for the many reasons posted in previous posts in this thread.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Realistically a bus service could definitely work and serve the places along the line better than the current train service if this was done:

Build platforms on the WCML at Carnforth and stop TPE services there (a bus would not serve Carnforth as it is quite far out of the way on the road network).

Improve services to Settle by alternating a 1tp2h Leeds to Settle shuttle (calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston) with the 1tp2h service on the S&C. I assume a crossover at Settle would be required.

Change the Morecambe service into a 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe shuttle.

Then I would have an express bus running from Lancaster to Settle with route and stops shown below:

Lancaster Station
Lancaster Bus Station
(A589, A683, B6480 - 81 bus serves all places between Lancaster and Wennington along this road)
Wennington
(B6480)
Low Bentham
(B6480)
Bentham
(B6480)
Clapham (not the station, the village)
(A6, B6480)
Giggleswick (not the station, the village)
(B6480)
Settle

Buses would run hourly, with good connections at Settle to train services both to and from Leeds.

And how would this be better than the existing, well patronised railway? How would your imaginary superbus be so much better than existing services? How would the people of Skipton feel about having a train to Settle, then a change onto a far, far slower bus, to get to Lancaster? This would take a total of at least three hours; how is that an adequate replacement for the 70 minute train journey?

Fantasy land.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Why does every thread on this forum about the Settle and Carlisle Line always have to involve discussions about closing itl. They are so overdone and quite frankly its embarassing at this point to keep talking about it so seriously.

 

[TheBigD]

Why does every thread on this forum about the Settle and Carlisle Line always have to involve discussions about closing itl. They are so overdone and quite frankly its embarassing at this point to keep talking about it so seriously.

Just be thankful that no one has mentioned using it for WCML diversions!!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just be thankful that no one has mentioned using it for WCML diversions!!!

It has to be fair done in the past, even in recent times.

 

[Grumpy]

One point in all this. The A65 is slow and full of traffic. In summer it's a continuous traffic jam. Anyone thinking of running a reliable service on it is living in an alternate reality

It took me 1 hour 30 to drive from Windermere to Burley in Wharfedale yesterday evening. Every speed limit observed and 2 traffic light stops in Ilkley. There were no road works and all the road traffic was cars. I wouldn't expect to achieve that journey time during most of the working day due to lorries/caravans/tractors/old fogeys etc but would suggest that west of Ilkley progress can be reasonable-it's certainly not a continuous traffic jam

 

[InkyScrolls]

It took me 1 hour 30 to drive from Windermere to Burley in Wharfedale yesterday evening. Every speed limit observed and 2 traffic light stops in Ilkley. There were no road works and all the road traffic was cars. I wouldn't expect to achieve that journey time during most of the working day due to lorries/caravans/tractors/old fogeys etc but would suggest that west of Ilkley progress can be reasonable-it's certainly not a continuous traffic jam

It can be very slow between Skipton and Settle, especially at peak times.

 

[Grumpy]

I'd hold your horses a bit on that - the Eden Project in Cornwall just about gets 1 m visitors a year bolstered no doubt by the number of people holidaying in Devon and Cornwall.

If the Morecambe one matched this, there would be demand coming from Manchester, Merseyside and even the West Mids as well as West Yorks - let's be generous and say 50% of the demand would come from West Yorks and it matches the Devon and Cornwall visitor numbers - then you're looking at half a million a year. School parties will probably be 5-10% of that and they will use coaches (for convenience and safeguarding reasons), so you're down to ~400,000. Assume 80% of that arrives by road, you're on 20% for rail (and I'll bet that's generous) and you're looking at 80,000 - even if ALL of those went via the Bentham line that's 1500 extra users a week. And a good number of those won't go via the Bentham line, because instead they'll go for the quickest train which will almost certainly be via Burnley to Preston and change onto the WCML at Preston.

I have no idea as to future numbers and origins. I always thought the current Eden project demand was likely to be largely from summer holidaymakers in Cornwall. Therefore summer holiday peaked with only a small local population able to pop round for a quick visit-Cornwall's a long way from major population centres. By contrast Morecambe is close to several conurbations with the chance to attract visitors all year round eg somewhere to go if it's a poor day.

It all depends on how the railway is marketed. The station being just 300 metres from the site must be an attraction. Your 80000 users at (Say) £20+ each would do wonders for the line's income, especially as the demand will be contra the normal peak flow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

It can be very slow between Skipton and Settle, especially at peak times.

Indeed. The entire route from Ilkley to the M6 can be frustrating depending on what you get stuck behind. In the instance you mention this tends to lead to an overtaking scramble on the Settle by-pass where the North Yorks police mobile speed camera van lies in wait.

 

[A0]

I have no idea as to future numbers and origins. I always thought the current Eden project demand was likely to be largely from summer holidaymakers in Cornwall. Therefore summer holiday peaked with only a small local population able to pop round for a quick visit-Cornwall's a long way from major population centres. By contrast Morecambe is close to several conurbations with the chance to attract visitors all year round eg somewhere to go if it's a poor day.

It all depends on how the railway is marketed. The station being just 300 metres from the site must be an attraction. Your 80000 users at (Say) £20+ each would do wonders for the line's income, especially as the demand will be contra the normal peak flow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==


Indeed. The entire route from Ilkley to the M6 can be frustrating depending on what you get stuck behind. In the instance you mention this tends to lead to an overtaking scramble on the Settle by-pass where the North Yorks police mobile speed camera van lies in wait.

BIB - the only bit which *will* benefit is Lancaster - Morecambe, not necessarily the Bentham line though.

Any traffic from Liverpool, Manchester West Mids and arguably Leeds, Hull and York won't go near the Bentham Line because they'll simply use the quicker services i.e. via Manchester.

 

[Grumpy]

BIB - the only bit which *will* benefit is Lancaster - Morecambe, not necessarily the Bentham line though.

Any traffic from Liverpool, Manchester West Mids and arguably Leeds, Hull and York won't go near the Bentham Line because they'll simply use the quicker services i.e. via Manchester.

It was your calculation of 80000pa from West Yorkshire, which excluded traffic from Liverpool, Manchester, West Mids etc. I cant believe anyone suggesting that passengers from such origins would go near the Bentham line.
The likes of Halifax and Huddersfield are in Yorkshire and passengers are not very likely to go via Bentham. However I cant understand the suggestion that passengers from Leeds would travel via Manchester (possibly with a change or two) rather than use a direct train.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Rural bus routes aren’t always ‘useless’, ‘miserable’ and so on.

No, they perform a vital service - often because the railway was closed by BR in the '50s/'60s. But to pretend a hypothetical and far, far slower bus service involving more changes is somehow superior to an existing railway line - which is what is being discussed - is rather illogical.

 

[RT4038]

No, they perform a vital service - often because the railway was closed by BR in the '50s/'60s. But to pretend a hypothetical and far, far slower bus service involving more changes is somehow superior to an existing railway line - which is what is being discussed - is rather illogical.

If money was no object, then you are right. But, of course, it isn't. Railways may usually offer superior end to end journey times, but are pretty hopeless when it comes to local accessibility (few stops and then often in inconvenient locations for the population). If both can be afforded then all well and good, but when demand drops below a certain level, then the service offering the greater good is the one to be retained.

 

[randyrippley]

Realistically a bus service could definitely work and serve the places along the line better than the current train service if this was done:

Build platforms on the WCML at Carnforth and stop TPE services there (a bus would not serve Carnforth as it is quite far out of the way on the road network).

Improve services to Settle by alternating a 1tp2h Leeds to Settle shuttle (calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston) with the 1tp2h service on the S&C. I assume a crossover at Settle would be required.

Change the Morecambe service into a 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe shuttle.

Then I would have an express bus running from Lancaster to Settle with route and stops shown below:

Lancaster Station
Lancaster Bus Station
(A589, A683, B6480 - 81 bus serves all places between Lancaster and Wennington along this road)
Wennington
(B6480)
Low Bentham
(B6480)
Bentham
(B6480)
Clapham (not the station, the village)
(A6, B6480)
Giggleswick (not the station, the village)
(B6480)
Settle

Buses would run hourly, with good connections at Settle to train services both to and from Leeds.

Well that route rules out double deckers - unless you intend to demolish the rail overbridges, and certainly won't be an express

 

[Ken H]

If money was no object, then you are right. But, of course, it isn't. Railways may usually offer superior end to end journey times, but are pretty hopeless when it comes to local accessibility (few stops and then often in inconvenient locations for the population). If both can be afforded then all well and good, but when demand drops below a certain level, then the service offering the greater good is the one to be retained.

But this is the sticks. People are used to driving to facilities. There is no other choice. So townies think a station should be a walk or short bike ride away. But in sparsely populated areas people will drive quite a distance to get to a station. So Clapham serves not just Clapham but Austwick, Clapham, Newby and Ingleton and many smaller settlements and farmhouses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But this is the sticks. People are used to driving to facilities. There is no other choice. So townies think a station should be a walk or short bike ride away. But in sparsely populated areas people will drive quite a distance to get to a station. So Clapham serves not just Clapham but Austwick, Clapham, Newby and Ingleton and many smaller settlements and farmhouses.

It doesn't. They won't drive to Clapham-not-Junction-in-a-Field, they'll drive to Settle, or maybe Lancaster. A bit like why Cheddington is so quiet - the people of Cheddington and Pitstone village probably drive to Tring for the better service.

(To be fair Tring is in a field too, but it's specifically set up as a Parkway, if IC hadn't monopolised that name Tring Parkway would be a good name for it)

 

[Ken H]

It doesn't. They won't drive to Clapham-not-Junction-in-a-Field, they'll drive to Settle, or maybe Lancaster. A bit like why Cheddington is so quiet - the people of Cheddington and Pitstone village probably drive to Tring for the better service.

I will remember that today when i drive thru settle & long preston to get to Hellifield. Where i can then get any carlisle or lancaster train back. As i said people drive a fair way to access services.

 

[InkyScrolls]

But this is the sticks. People are used to driving to facilities. There is no other choice. So townies think a station should be a walk or short bike ride away. But in sparsely populated areas people will drive quite a distance to get to a station. So Clapham serves not just Clapham but Austwick, Clapham, Newby and Ingleton and many smaller settlements and farmhouses.

From personal experience, this is very much the case.

It doesn't. They won't drive to Clapham-not-Junction-in-a-Field, they'll drive to Settle, or maybe Lancaster.

And this is not. Why would anyone drive an hour to Lancaster when there's a railway station right there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And this is not. Why would anyone drive an hour to Lancaster when there's a railway station right there?

Because the other ones have a better service to more places?

 

[Ken H]

Because the other ones have a better service to more places?

And where do you park?

 

[30907]

Realistically a bus service could definitely work and serve the places along the line better than the current train service if this was done:

Build platforms on the WCML at Carnforth and stop TPE services there (a bus would not serve Carnforth as it is quite far out of the way on the road network).

Improve services to Settle by alternating a 1tp2h Leeds to Settle shuttle (calling at Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Gargrave, Hellifield and Long Preston) with the 1tp2h service on the S&C. I assume a crossover at Settle would be required.

Change the Morecambe service into a 2tph Lancaster to Morecambe shuttle.

Then I would have an express bus running from Lancaster to Settle with route and stops shown below:

Lancaster Station
Lancaster Bus Station
(A589, A683, B6480 - 81 bus serves all places between Lancaster and Wennington along this road)
Wennington
(B6480)
Low Bentham
(B6480)
Bentham
(B6480)
Clapham (not the station, the village)
(A6, B6480)
Giggleswick (not the station, the village)
(B6480)
Settle

Buses would run hourly, with good connections at Settle to train services both to and from Leeds.

So your hourly bus would require 3 if not 4 vehicles, while closing the railway saves at most 1 unit (and that's assuming Morecambe can be fully resourced from the Lancaster end).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So your hourly bus would require 3 if not 4 vehicles, while closing the railway saves at most 1 unit (and that's assuming Morecambe can be fully resourced from the Lancaster end).

I reckon you can probably operate at least two, probably three, buses for the price of one two-car DMU, and that's purely on staff, diesel and maintenance costs and ignoring infrastructure.

 

[geordieblue]

I reckon you can probably operate at least two, probably three, buses for the price of one two-car DMU, and that's purely on staff, diesel and maintenance costs and ignoring infrastructure.

Although of course a train travels faster than a bus, so it's not exactly a one to one comparison - you need more than one bus to provide the same service as one train.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Because the other ones have a better service to more places?

Why would you drive to a station known for horrendous parking issues when you could take the train, which is far quicker?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would you drive to a station known for horrendous parking issues when you could take the train, which is far quicker?

Because it's infrequent?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Why would you drive to a station known for horrendous parking issues when you could take the train, which is far quicker?

Because if you need to get a train that is 2 hourly from anywhere on the Bentham line to connect at Lancaster onto services that may be half hourly you might not want your day dictated by that.

Just checking google maps its 45 minutes to get to Lancaster by car from Clapham town.

To go by train its 38 minutes, plus a 5 minute drive from Clapham town to Clapham station. Its not far quicker by train. Its marginal at best and the further away you are from your local train station, the less optimal its becomes and because the Bentham line is so poorly situated for its stations with regards to the population it "serves" it suffers.

Due to the frequency of service there is a tiny window in which it is marginally quicker to get the train.