What’s going on with Thameslink?

[Surreytraveller]

What do you mean 2 units. It’s one 3 coach 377/3

Unless I’ve got that wrong as I saw a 377/3 go to to TON from RDH. I’ll check southern to see what the next formation is

The Redhill/Tonbridge line requires two units (with a third during Monday to Friday peaks)

 

[WizCastro197]

The Redhill/Tonbridge line requires two units (with a third during Monday to Friday peaks)

Alright I am starting go get confused with the word unit?
Do you mean 1 set like one 377? I thought there is only on 1tph on the tonbridge line

Or do you mean 2 units working simultaneously like one could be at Tonbridge and another could be at say
Redhill? And vice versa?

 

[Surreytraveller]

A unit or set. To provide an hourly service you need two units (or two trains). If you only had one unit, you would only have a train every two hours

 

[Horizon22]

Totally agree

A new less crew-accusatory reason needs to be put in the CIS system. Sadly we can’t have ‘ the TOC is too tight to recruit enough drivers' but can we not have 'a human resourcing error/inadequacy' ?

I'm surprised the union hasn’t pushed for this as the current reason is a threat to their members safety.

That's nonsense - people want to know the reason. If it's a shortage of train crew, it's a shortage of train crew, whatever the background reason may be. It's nothing to do with a train fault. The reason comes down to the company running the trains, not its staff members and any "threat" needs to be dealt with robustly through the proper channels.

"Resource availability" and "shortage of train crew" are essentially the same thing when you think about it - except one is clear english and the other is actually rather vague. I am surprised TfW got that agreed, although certain TOCs have slightly different ways of explaining the same thing. For the record I also don't like "operational incident", but sometimes there is no easy way to explain staff error without getting into the minutiae of the railway (SPADs, wrong routing, wrong side door release, etc.).

 

[baz962]

That's nonsense - people want to know the reason. If it's a shortage of train crew, it's a shortage of train crew, whatever the background reason may be. It's nothing to do with a train fault. The reason comes down to the company running the trains, not its staff members and any "threat" needs to be dealt with robustly through the proper channels.

"Resource availability" and "shortage of train crew" are essentially the same thing when you think about it - except one is clear english and the other is actually rather vague. I am surprised TfW got that agreed, although certain TOCs have slightly different ways of explaining the same thing. For the record I also don't like "operational incident", but sometimes there is no easy way to explain staff error without getting into the minutiae of the railway (SPADs, wrong routing, wrong side door release, etc.).

Right so if people want to know the reason, then it shouldn't be described as shortage of train crew if crew are available.

 

[Horizon22]

Right so if people want to know the reason, then it shouldn't be described as shortage of train crew if crew are available.

And they are often not? If you've got X number of missing diagrams and Y trains are cancelled accordingly, that is a shortage of train crew. If a driver/guard is late for some other reason such as displacement, there's a reason for that ( "train crew being delayed by service disruption")

You've also got "train crew being unavailable" if you want. Nobody is going to say 100% of the time the reason will be 100% accurate as it's all human inputs and sometimes it's done in a hurry, but it's only what is relayed by people on the ground. Plus something it can have knock on impacts to other trains, and the route cause is a shortage of train crew. "Resource availability" is not one of the industry agreed reasons.

 

[zwk500]

Right so if people want to know the reason, then it shouldn't be described as shortage of train crew if crew are available.

Personally, I'd want control staff to be focusing on finding trains to actually run than be constantly distracted updating the PIS. I can understand Drivers being concerned about hostility from passengers, and I can understand the frustruation when an excuse as vague as 'an Operational Incident' is trotted out. So control is going to piss somebody off regardless. Better just to leave the PIS alone and start running trains so we don't have the situation you've described of a driver being sat next to a perfectly fine unit ready to work a service that then gets cancelled. I'd rather the delay reason was incorrect but the train ran instead of a perfectly correct reason for an avoidable cancellation.

 

[baz962]

Personally, I'd want control staff to be focusing on finding trains to actually run than be constantly distracted updating the PIS. I can understand Drivers being concerned about hostility from passengers, and I can understand the frustruation when an excuse as vague as 'an Operational Incident' is trotted out. So control is going to piss somebody off regardless. Better just to leave the PIS alone and start running trains so we don't have the situation you've described of a driver being sat next to a perfectly fine unit ready to work a service that then gets cancelled. I'd rather the delay reason was incorrect but the train ran instead of a perfectly correct reason for an avoidable cancellation.

But it doesn't get run. So they cancel it for no reason and have a wrong reason.

 

[Horizon22]

Personally, I'd want control staff to be focusing on finding trains to actually run than be constantly distracted updating the PIS. I can understand Drivers being concerned about hostility from passengers, and I can understand the frustruation when an excuse as vague as 'an Operational Incident' is trotted out. So control is going to piss somebody off regardless. Better just to leave the PIS alone and start running trains so we don't have the situation you've described of a driver being sat next to a perfectly fine unit ready to work a service that then gets cancelled. I'd rather the delay reason was incorrect but the train ran instead of a perfectly correct reason for an avoidable cancellation.

People making the operational decisions are rarely (if ever) going to be the same people making the alterations on CIS/PIS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==

But it doesn't get run. So they cancel it for no reason and have a wrong reason.

Trains don't get cancelled "for no reason".

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Personally, I'd want control staff to be focusing on finding trains to actually run than be constantly distracted updating the PIS. I can understand Drivers being concerned about hostility from passengers, and I can understand the frustruation when an excuse as vague as 'an Operational Incident' is trotted out. So control is going to piss somebody off regardless. Better just to leave the PIS alone and start running trains so we don't have the situation you've described of a driver being sat next to a perfectly fine unit ready to work a service that then gets cancelled. I'd rather the delay reason was incorrect but the train ran instead of a perfectly correct reason for an avoidable cancellation.

There's TOC representatives in Three Bridges ROC who should be dealing with CIS in response to adjustments made to services by control although I know the position isn't staffed 24/7.

 

[baz962]

People making the operational decisions are rarely (if ever) going to be the same people making the alterations on CIS/PIS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2022 ==



Trains don't get cancelled "for no reason".

Afraid they do. As I alluded to in a previous post on this thread. A fellow driver, but not a colleague and I were chatting on the phone. He drives for great northern and I said that a lot of trains are getting cancelled. He then told me that he has turned up for work and his train has been cancelled due to shortage of train crew ( doo no guard etc ) . The train is empty in the depot, prepped and no faults and he is booked on and ready for duty. It's an out and back trip so if a later driver isn't available, he can and has been happy to go out and back and if needs be can stable it again. Control offer no reason why it's cancelled. Happened more than once and he can't get an answer.

 

[Horizon22]

Afraid they do. As I alluded to in a previous post on this thread. A fellow driver, but not a colleague and I were chatting on the phone. He drives for great northern and I said that a lot of trains are getting cancelled. He then told me that he has turned up for work and his train has been cancelled due to shortage of train crew ( doo no guard etc ) . The train is empty in the depot, prepped and no faults and he is booked on and ready for duty. It's an out and back trip so if a later driver isn't available, he can and has been happy to go out and back and if needs be can stable it again. Control offer no reason why it's cancelled. Happened more than once and he can't get an answer.

As I alluded to in my previous post, there is a wider picture. It might be that the service was thinned out (due to a shortage of crew overall) and so certain trains are no longer running accordingly, even if there is a driver. This might be a special peak service (and if a train is truly "one journey only" as per your example from depot-A-B-depot it sounds like it is), they are often some of the first to go.

Again "Control" won't be cancelling trains for the hell of it. If the disruption is really severe, then yes it might happen because it is impossible to track everyone, everywhere but that will normally have a wider reason (due to infrastructure issue) or the like. GTR should use the base reason for that and if they don't, then that's problematic but I don't think that's what we're referring to.

 

[choochoochoo]

That's nonsense - people want to know the reason. If it's a shortage of train crew, it's a shortage of train crew, whatever the background reason may be. It's nothing to do with a train fault. The reason comes down to the company running the trains, not its staff members and any "threat" needs to be dealt with robustly through the proper channels.

"Resource availability" and "shortage of train crew" are essentially the same thing when you think about it - except one is clear english and the other is actually rather vague. I am surprised TfW got that agreed, although certain TOCs have slightly different ways of explaining the same thing. For the record I also don't like "operational incident", but sometimes there is no easy way to explain staff error without getting into the minutiae of the railway (SPADs, wrong routing, wrong side door release, etc.).

I disagree that it's nonsense. Why not remove the cause of the threat at the root by having the correct reason. Let company management take the flak not the passenger facing staff. Sadly 'management incompetence' will never be allowed as a reason, but its a shortage of train crew is an outright lie on most occasions.

GN for example, there are often drivers sitting spare in depots that had previously signed the route and traction that would have been able to drive that train but cannot now due to the revised working arrangements. That's management incompetence not a shortage of train crew.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There's TOC representatives in Three Bridges ROC who should be dealing with CIS in response to adjustments made to services by control although I know the position isn't staffed 24/7.

Of course its staffed 24/7. Trains run all day 24/7, and get cancelled 24/7 as well. They're TOC employees, rather than 'representatives'.

 

[ComUtoR]

I disagree that it's nonsense. Why not remove the cause of the threat at the root by having the correct reason.

"Rostering error" also "fits". Technically there isn't enough Drivers in the roster to cope.

Maybe there should also be one that says "control messed up"

 

[Surreytraveller]

Maybe there should also be one that says "control messed up"

The only reason control get involved is because something has gone wrong or someone else has messed up
If too many people are messing up at the same time for control to cope, that's not control's fault!

 

[ComUtoR]

If too many people are messing up at the same time for control to cope, that's not control's fault!

The forum ate my smiley face

However, control do mess up. It's just part of the mess the railway often creates for itself. The phrase too many cooks often spring to mind. Chuck in the human element and it gets worse. Throw in the proverbial cluster... And you have stretched, over worked and understaffed departments.

 

[WizCastro197]

Back To Thameslink.

RDH Seems okay some delays due to a points failure but I can't work out where? Is it GTW or Portsmouth Harbour? Because Yesterday the same problem had occurred when I was looking at departures from GTW it had said that "A Points Failure at this station means train running towards Portsmouth Harbour may be delayed revised or Cancelled"

How are Redhill Services affected? Are they stuck behind late running Portsmouth Harbours? Because One train has had its Reigate Call cancelled and is just running from RDH to Victoria


Oh and I new reason I don't think I've seen but must be quite common 09:13 is Delayed as it was "late from the depot"

 

[WizCastro197]

A few minor delays due to a defective track. Anyone aware where this may be? Only 1 Thameslink Cancelled in the next hour due to Shortage of Drivers.

I do now think that this long spell of disruption from Thameslink is coming to a close. It's nearly the end of the Summer Holidays so hopefully more drivers will return.

 

[XIX7007177]

A few minor delays due to a defective track. Anyone aware where this may be? Only 1 Thameslink Cancelled in the next hour due to Shortage of Drivers.

I do now think that this long spell of disruption from Thameslink is coming to a close. It's nearly the end of the Summer Holidays so hopefully more drivers will return.

Bit too optimistic.

 

[WizCastro197]

Bit too optimistic.

No It's not? Sunday and Monday have run fine even on Friday service ran quite well?

 

[XIX7007177]

No It's not? Sunday and Monday have run fine even on Friday service ran quite well?

Do believe Thameslink are due pay talks at some point this year so depends how they go.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A few minor delays due to a defective track. Anyone aware where this may be? Only 1 Thameslink Cancelled in the next hour due to Shortage of Drivers.

I do now think that this long spell of disruption from Thameslink is coming to a close. It's nearly the end of the Summer Holidays so hopefully more drivers will return.

This shows it as on Quarries north of Sand Tnl

 

[WizCastro197]

This shows it as on Quarries north of Sand Tnl

View attachment 119625

Thanks. Southern have now said that services will be diverted via Redhill.

How did you find this anyway?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thanks. Southern have now said that services will be diverted via Redhill.

How did you find this anyway?

open time trains map

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/vtb2

but would show up on Tracksy etc as the signaller has interposed it into the berth of signal T189

 

[BPN2022]

Reduced service between Bedford and Brighton from approximately 21:00 until the end of the day. Already advertised on National Rail website.

Must be a shortage of Traincrew for this evening ahead.

 

[WizCastro197]

Reduced service between Bedford and Brighton from approximately 21:00 until the end of the day. Already advertised on National Rail website.

Must be a shortage of Traincrew for this evening ahead.

Yes that's what Thameslink have listed is that for the whole route including Redhill or just Bedford-Brighton if that makes sense.

Today is a good day for Thameslink in the RDH area today. No Cancelations and no delays.

 

[ainsworth74]

The posts on CIS systems can now be found here. Further discussion should take place there please.

 

[WizCastro197]

Delays between GTW-RDH. Safety Inspection of track, Redhill doesn't seem to be too affected by this right now but it is advised that this will continue until at least
18:00

But No southbound trains at Earlswood, Horley or Salfords. What would one do if this continues well beyond peak?

 

[Minstral25]

So tonight Thameslink and Southern both have decided to run trains very slowly through Coulsdon South, Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley but refusing to let any commuters off the trains, which leaves hundreds of passengers to find alternative transport like buses and taxis to get home. They have also suspended all of the 9R services meaning some stations don't even have trains to watch the station go by out of.

These services have been sacrificed so that others may get home exactly on time. It is exceptionally wrong that one group of travellers are penalised constantly like this. Day in day out cancellations, full service withdrawals etc. along the Redhill route What is needed to get Thameslink just to run a basic service.