Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[Steve Harris]

What, is the point that first class shouldn't just be a bigger seat but also that the seat next to you is empty?

I have never mentioned anything about the seat next to me being empty!

I suggest you re-read my posts, rather than making assumptions, which can be very dangerous (in my line of work).

 

[fwsmVor]

having the correct numbers of coaches to carry the correct number of customers in the Class they have paid for.

The correct number of passengers in First is the same as the correct number of passengers in Standard: exactly as many as there are seats. The current attitude seems to be that plebs should consider themselves lucky to have a Fainsa Sophia to themselves in a crush-loaded coach, whereas those who pay a few dozen pounds extra deserve an entire bay of 4, at least. This is obviously unsustainable: as an avid Seatfrogger, I can't imagine that two coaches occupied by me and perhaps five other people on a busy day are in any way profitable.

 

[mmh]

I suggest you re-read my posts, rather than making assumptions, which can be very dangerous (in my line of work).

Instead of attacking me perhaps explain what your point actually is? That'd seem more useful. I have no idea what your line of work is and why would I? Unless - you're Iron Maiden's bass player?

 

[JamieL]

People have certainly got used to that, but with a leisure oriented railway no longer willing to pay huge uplifts of 300% over even an Off Peak Return that is simply no longer economic. It needs higher occupancy or complete removal.

Seatfrog's existence is symptomatic of bad yield management / too much 1st, it isn't a viable business model for all of it.

IMHO First Class is critical for the railways. For people to use the train, rather than flying or driving, then it needs to cater for all. It must provide cheap fares for standard, provide a workspace for business travellers and offer the option of comfort for premium leisure customers. The two class system is not perfect - and the names are outdated - but it can offer those things to most users (when working properly). As much as I dislike Avanti, their three class system works even better.

We need to get people out of cars and into trains. Having everyone suffer in standard will just push middle earners, business people and others away from the railway. That would manifest itself in reduced funding and support over time.

 

[mmh]

IMHO First Class is critical for the railways. For people to use the train, rather than flying or driving,

The number of journeys where flying vs train is an option is insignificant. The number where it's an option between driving and train, while a lot bigger, isn't huge either.

 

[Falcon1200]

Because the "other people" have also booked and paid their fares, are already on the train.

“Why should other people, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of such a group?”

Nobody was denied travel, if I am reading Post #99 correctly. Anyway, would it not suit everyone, footballers and others, if the former were seated together rather than spread through the train - That would certainly be my preference, even if it did mean moving !

 

[mmh]

Nobody was denied travel, if I am reading Post #99 correctly. Anyway, would it not suit everyone, footballers and others, if the former were seated together rather than spread through the train - That would certainly be my preference, even if it did mean moving !

Well indeed. "I had to sit in a different seat rather than be annoyed by these awful football people," said nobody ever other than someone who wanted to be annoyed.

 

[JamieL]

The number of journeys where flying vs train is an option is insignificant. The number where it's an option between driving and train, while a lot bigger, isn't huge either.

Surely driving and train are in direct competition almost everywhere?

I live in Bristol but regularly go home to north Clyde area. Driving 7hrs, trains closer to 9hrs. Similar differentials in other places I have lived and worked. There must be a reason to get the train - for some it will be cost, for others experience, for others the ability to work. Choice is key and he railways need to offer a mix of service levels at a range of prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

IMHO First Class is critical for the railways. For people to use the train, rather than flying or driving, then it needs to cater for all. It must provide cheap fares for standard, provide a workspace for business travellers and offer the option of comfort for premium leisure customers. The two class system is not perfect - and the names are outdated - but it can offer those things to most users (when working properly). As much as I dislike Avanti, their three class system works even better.

I don't disagree for InterCity rail (though on regional rail 1st was classically just an expensive seat reservation). What I am more saying is that to make it viable at leisure type prices you need to fill it, people can't expect a table for four to themselves if they are only paying a smallish uplift.

In latter BR days a First Open Return from Liverpool to London was maybe £200, while a SuperApex could be had for £19, and most people would have been on a SuperSaver for about £40 or so. No First Class discounts existed at all other than Weekend First which was more like SP with a dedicated coach. If you are paying a 5 times uplift, giving you a bay to yourself as part of the experience is viable.

Nowadays, there's Seatfrog and Advances, and SP gets you close to the standard Euro 1.5 to 1.6 times uplift, which just reflects the ratio of the number of seats in a Standard vs 1st coach. At that uplift you have to fill it to be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2022 ==

Surely driving and train are in direct competition almost everywhere?

I live in Bristol but regularly go home to north Clyde area. Driving 7hrs, trains closer to 9hrs. Similar differentials in other places I have lived and worked. There must be a reason to get the train - for some it will be cost, for others experience, for others the ability to work. Choice is key and he railways need to offer a mix of service levels at a range of prices.

I would say it is only London commuting where the car is not really considered at all. It is less attractive for e.g. South East to the Scottish Highlands but I have driven that, in that case the competitor was the car and a Premier Inn.

 

[Steve Harris]

Instead of attacking me perhaps explain what your point actually is? That'd seem more useful. I have no idea what your line of work is and why would I? Unless - you're Iron Maiden's bass player?

To be Frank, I actually think your reply is more "attacking" ! So I will let you carry on making assumptions.

But If you do go back and read my earlier posts in this thread you will understand the point I'm making (as I can't really make it any simplier) , which other members have clearly understood.
I would like to elaborate further, but I have a gig to go and play in !!

 

[se1lad]

My emphasis…
“Why should other people, having booked and paid their fares, be denied travel in favour of such a group?”

I imagine they booked the private carriage option:

Private Train Carriage | VIP Travel | Avanti West Coast

Travel in style with a private train booking, ideal for special occasions. Book a private train carriage and travel as an Avanti West Coast VIP.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[WizCastro197]

IMHO First Class is critical for the railways. For people to use the train, rather than flying or driving, then it needs to cater for all. It must provide cheap fares for standard, provide a workspace for business travellers and offer the option of comfort for premium leisure customers. The two class system is not perfect - and the names are outdated - but it can offer those things to most users (when working properly). As much as I dislike Avanti, their three class system works even better.

We need to get people out of cars and into trains. Having everyone suffer in standard will just push middle earners, business people and others away from the railway. That would manifest itself in reduced funding and support over time.

Yes it can be critically important and yes its very important we get people out of cars and onto trains especially in the post-pandemic recovery period. And one way is too bring back people with a great first class that is worth what you pay for. There is practically no point in paying a large difference for let me get the spelling right... Antimacassar and one more charging port and so one. Like those in the South-east especially where I live where you pay an almost £10 difference for a headrest that says "Southern First Class"

As Difficult as Avanti is now, I completely agree this 3 class system is very interesting. I could pay for a First Class Seat but in Standard Premium but sacrifice the free catering which for a family ,( A Family can look like absolutely anything but for the sake of this example I will use the stereotypical 2 and 2 children) can be quite attractive as this "family" could choose to pack food or buy it elsewhere.

Only on Refurbished Sets does this stamens apply.

Fare Example- Tomorrow Single Advance and 8:00 for 2 adults 2 children

STRD- 205.80
SP-224.50.
1ST-507.90

But I think that's another problem the complete overpricing for food (283 Pounds difference for the food and 1st Lounge) and how First isn't very attractive for those travelling in larger groups than probably 2. But that's probably another thread subject for a different time

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the error they have made regarding proper 1st is not justifying the uplift by making it really, really special, like 1+1 electric recliners or something, or maybe compartments for confidential meetings, or a bit of both. There probably is a Coach K sized market for that. The "K Bar" thing on one of the concepts might have worked, too.

SP is priced basically like Euro 1st, which is why I like it, and it's a more sensible price point for a leisure and self upgrade based market.

 

[Mikey C]

Back on topic (ish!)

I can't remember the exact journey, but I was on a TPE service which stopped short due to a technical or operational issue, so we all had to leave our well used 185 and squeeze on the next one. I recall that I went and sat in 1st and never was questioned about it, the conductor presumably taking the attitude that with 2 trains worth of passengers crammed into one, it was sensible to use all the space.

 

[Dryce]

As Difficult as Avanti is now, I completely agree this 3 class system is very interesting. I could pay for a First Class Seat but in Standard Premium but sacrifice the free catering which for a family ,( A Family can look like absolutely anything but for the sake of this example I will use the stereotypical 2 and 2 children) can be quite attractive as this "family" could choose to pack food or buy it elsewhere.

I do journeys every other week or so from Scotland to the southern half of the country.

Depending on specific destination I can typcally drive, fly, or take the train. Door to door times are not dissimila. Most journeys are by hire car or train. Hire cars have been higher priced or limited availability for the last 5 or 6 months.

First pricing is usually silly - but occasionally advanced fares are not so off the scale.

SP seems to be the optimum and I usually buy an advance single each way. Reservations are important to me. Occasionally if plans are changing I'll buy a walk on off-peak return and upgrade on the train.

The difference between first and SP isn't worth it given how poor the service difference is.

My view is Avanti should ditch first in its current form and just make it all SP and have a member of staff to look after the passengers - checking tickets and taking upgrade payments from passengers without SP/first tickets after each stop - dealing with reservation enforcement - and sorting out taking orders for at seat service from the shop. Just handling the upgrade charging consistently would probably pay for the staff member on duty - and offering a supervised at seat ording system for the shop would probably also increase revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My view is Avanti should ditch first in its current form and just make it all SP and have a member of staff to look after the passengers - checking tickets and taking upgrade payments from passengers without SP/first tickets after each stop - dealing with reservation enforcement - and sorting out taking orders for at seat service from the shop. Just handling the upgrade charging consistently would probably pay for the staff member on duty - and offering a supervised at seat ording system for the shop would probably also increase revenue.

I think that's an excellent idea, and would bring it into line with Euro-1st which is a much better price-service offering for leisure and self-upgrade passengers. They could even change First Off Peak tickets to be 1.6x Standard, and I'd start buying them by default. They could, like DB, have some fairly cheap but "feel good" niceties as well like the Shop stuff, paid for at the same price as Standard, being served using proper crockery, cutlery, cups and glasses. Free tea, coffee and water (but nothing more) may be worth considering too as it's very cheap to do and is another "feel good" nicety.

The guard would then concentrate on operating the train and tickets in Standard.

 

[JamieL]

Personally I wouldn't be keen in Standard Premium be becoming the only First option. On Avanti, I value the no hassle food and drink service given to First whilst the high numbers of staff patrolling the coach keep things nice and quiet. SP also helps as it takes many of the leisure customers who, in my experience, may tend to be a little louder when off to their hols. Like many, my company pays so cost isn't really a concern. Choice is key IMHO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I wouldn't be keen in Standard Premium be becoming the only First option. On Avanti, I value the no hassle food and drink service given to First whilst the high numbers of staff patrolling the coach keep things nice and quiet. SP also helps as it takes many of the leisure customers who, in my experience, may tend to be a little louder when off to their hols. Like many, my company pays so cost isn't really a concern. Choice is key IMHO.

The food and drink service is an interesting one, as it allows companies to pay tax free expenses for a breakfast and an evening meal on the train on a day trip which would not ordinarily be permissible unless the trip involved a very early start or very late arrival home, which they usually don't. It was also a basis on which to increase prices massively despite not costing much to deliver. As companies cease to pay it, it's dying out - it used to fill to at least about 50% all 4 1st coaches of a morning peak Pendolino on a weekday 20 years ago, and now all it manages is coach K which is only a half-coach.

I think that model is dying out. You might just about manage to keep coach K going, but it isn't a viable model for several coaches of 1st like it was.

 

[JamieL]

It tends to achieve a circa-50% or more fill of coaches K and J on the Pendelino trains I frequent (Euston-Glasgow).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It tends to achieve a circa-50% or more fill of coaches K and J on the Pendelino trains I frequent (Euston-Glasgow).

It's probably more viable on the longer distance services, just as excruciatingly expensive business class sells well on long haul flights but short-haul has as good as abandoned it entirely.

It could well be that a different model might work on the Scottish services than on the Manchesters, Liverpools and Birminghams, particularly the latter which is a very short journey.

 

[VideozVideoz]

2. Has anyone any experience of Cross Country First Class? Does it get declassified much? The Bristol to Glasgow journey is long (8+hrs) and slower than train hopping but could provide a better option rather than risking the Avanti?

My experience of 1st class on XC has always been very positive. Admittedly, pre-pandemic and pre-strike action / cancellations. Staff have always been good, some quite regimented, food and drink always available and carriages quiet and never declassified in the 2 years I used it on a fortnightly basis. They never seemed to have much first class space but based on my experience, it was never needed. It was always clean and smelt fresh (some strong, sweet-smelling cleaning agent!)

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s not really scope for Avanti to ditch First Class altogether, because they’d then lose all the ORCATS money that sloshes into them on first class tickets valid on their routes.

 

[m4tt]

now all it manages is coach K which is only a half-coach.

One of my most recent experiences I travelled from MK to Preston getting the last seat in coach K. It was not very pleasent being stuck in the corner of a 4 with others. Only coach K was 1st with 3 standard premium coaches.

I think K should always be first with the option of changing J depending on expected level of passangers based on resevations, allowing an effective use of space

 

[JamieL]

One of my most recent experiences I travelled from MK to Preston getting the last seat in coach K. It was not very pleasent being stuck in the corner of a 4 with others. Only coach K was 1st with 3 standard premium coaches.

I think K should always be first with the option of changing J depending on expected level of passangers based on resevations, allowing an effective use of space

Was that at a weekend? Coach J is normally First on weekdays.

 

[m4tt]

Was that at a weekend? Coach J is normally First on weekdays.

Yes it was, the service overall was very busy and standard too. Over my two week rover I have had times where I have had the whole of first class to myself, both weekdays and weekends whilst also times where it has been very busy

 

[StevenF]

Over the last twelve months I have become a regular train user commuting between work places in Bristol, London and Glasgow. With the extent of roadworks these days driving is miserable and flying often takes 5 hours door-to-door - in any event both means of transport are dead time where it is impossible to do any work. Mid-Winter I was using the Caledonian Sleeper service as my main means of transport which was okay albeit the "glide through the night" description on the website is, in my experience, not quite the reality. More recently I have been using Avanti where their First Class compartments has provided the opportunity to get work done on the train and seemed to be the optimum solution. The First Class carriages are reasonably well staffed and whenever there has been an issue (crying children), the staff have always offered to move me to a quieter seat. However, having done the London-Glasgow journey about 20 times times now, I have had First declassified twice - a 10% hit rate. One occasion was okay - the carriage filled up but remained reasonably quiet - but the second occasion it effectively became a party carriage as some very loud and drunk individuals came onboard.

So, first, a few quick question for the regular rail users.
1. Is the 10% declassified rate I have witnessed typical on Avanti?
2. Has anyone any experience of Cross Country First Class? Does it get declassified much? The Bristol to Glasgow journey is long (8+hrs) and slower than train hopping but could provide a better option rather than risking the Avanti?

Second, is a more general question, who is First Class actually aimed at? I normally travel in Standard when commuting for leisure but opt for First for business travel as I can work. I sort of assumed it was the same for most mid-week First travelers but this seems entirely at odds with declassifying. If the First Class service - and by that I mean table, power sockets, quieter coach, basic refreshments - isn't offered in a reliable form, what value is it for it business users? If there is a likelihood of dead time where no work can be done, flying is probably the better option in order to minimise it.

I feel feel that questions like this will never be answered definitely until the damaging rail strike has been resolved/broken ended.Take your pick of outcomes.
Avanti were enthusiastically bashing on with converting the Pendolinos to have about only half a carriage of first class and loads of this Premium Standard, which you pay extra for ( will they diligently declassified this when it suits or the trains become crowded as they will).
Anyway, if service gets so bad it won't matter and if the unions continue the Treasury will ultimately cut rail ( the lease trains have to be paid for even if they are not used).

 

[m4tt]

I observed a diverse range of people using first class, most were businessmen/women who appreciated the tables and quiet atmosphere. However, lots of leisure travelers use first as well as a treat. I would say that 30% had seatfrog upgrades. One train I was on had a whole team of workers conducting a meeting, something which would not really be viable in standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s not really scope for Avanti to ditch First Class altogether, because they’d then lose all the ORCATS money that sloshes into them on first class tickets valid on their routes.

No, but they could make 1st the same as SP including the all week upgrades and bin that.

 

[AlterEgo]

No, but they could make 1st the same as SP including the all week upgrades and bin that.

Not for the prices they’re charging for first, I hope.

 

[XAM2175]

Avanti were enthusiastically bashing on with converting the Pendolinos to have about only half a carriage of first class and loads of this Premium Standard, which you pay extra for ( will they diligently declassified this when it suits or the trains become crowded as they will).

Ah yes, because you never had to pay extra for First-class and Avanti never ever declassified it either