Declassification of First Class on busy long distance services

[BJames]

Sometimes first itself is actually pretty full - have had this before on EMR where standard was rammed and I think there were about 4 spare seats in first, I saw the TM directing a pregnant lady and her husband to two of these seats, and first remained classified with the full food and drinks service. TM didn't allow people to stand in first, but instead prevented people boarding about 8 minutes before departure. Was relieved to have got FC that day!

Agree though @Huntergreed maybe standard premium is an option for you.

 

[JamieL]

Onboard an unbelievably rammed pendolino (and no, that isn’t hyperbole. We can’t actually fit into standard class. I’m in the first vestibule before entering first class, and the path to standard is blocked by passengers) - and yet the TM has announced that first class remains classified (and I can see it’s empty from the vestibule of coach G). Photo of the way into standard attached:

View attachment 119446
(photo shows the connecting vestibule from first into standard, rammed with passengers).

As far as I know, it is this busy along all 7 coaches - seems extremely poor judgement on the TM’s behalf not to declassify!

Also makes me wonder - what are the rules for charging a passenger if they want to get to standard accommodation, but physically can’t?

Where is that train to/from? I am heading to Euston now for a 390 journey north - if its like that I might not bother!

 

[43066]

Go and sit in Standard Premium. If it's that busy they likely won't come through and take your money, and if they do just upgrade. As there's no other way to pay for that as an upgrade than when challenged, "pay when challenged" (if challenged) is perfectly acceptable.

I think I've been charged for it about 1 out of 4 times.

Not sure whether standard premium is classed as first for the purposes of the conditions of carriage? If so doing the above without getting permission first would technically be an offence AIUI.

I’d always try and get permission first (finding the TM on the platform at an intermediate stop if necessary) rather than plonking myself down.

(Okay we all know it’s highly unlikely to be enforced as such, especially at the moment, but worth considering!).

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not sure whether standard premium is classed as first for the purposes of the conditions of carriage? If so doing the above without getting permission first would technically be an offence AIUI.

I’d always try and get permission first (finding the TM on the platform at an intermediate stop if necessary) rather than plonking myself down.

(Okay we all know it’s highly unlikely to be enforced as such, especially at the moment, but worth considering!).

Avanti's policy for SP is to sit in the carriage and you can upgrade when the TM comes round.

 

[43066]

Avanti's policy for SP is to sit in the carriage and you can upgrade when the TM comes round.

Sorry I hadn’t appreciated that. In which case @Huntergreed feel free to disregard the above .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure whether standard premium is classed as first for the purposes of the conditions of carriage? If so doing the above without getting permission first would technically be an offence AIUI.

It is specifically an on-board upgrade product - in effect the same as Weekend First but all week. Other than an Advance, you cannot buy it before boarding, it is only sold on board.

 

[MisterT]

I'm currently on the 1M09 from Glasgow to London, and they've just declassified 1st class because of reported overcrowding. Reservations are no longer valid and there's no food/drink service anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm currently on the 1M09 from Glasgow to London, and they've just declassified 1st class because of overcrowding. Reservations are no longer valid and there's no food/drink service anymore.

I'm fairly surprised they don't declassify Standard Premium but just "retrench" actual First to Coach K only. They aren't after all going to be able to collect the upgrades as they won't physically get there to do it, and Coach K itself is only a tiny amount of capacity - basically half a vehicle (4 windows). They'd only have to refund a few peoples' SP Advances.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

SWR's long distance Waterloo-Weymouth services come with First Class, these run as express with limited stops until Bournemouth/Poole which from there to Weymouth it basically becomes a local Dorset stopper service.

Should First Class be closed off or declassified between BMH/POO-WEY as I've never seen it be busy, outside the summer hols, until around Southampton or Winchester?

With First Class greatly reduced in the recent refurb of 444s-450s also with the trolley service likely never to be brought back, a sign of things to come that the "luxuries" probably only be confined to the real intercity services run by AWC, LNER, GWR than the likes of SWR, LNR, GA and EMR etc?

 

[Huntergreed]

With First Class greatly reduced in the recent refurb of 444s-450s also with the trolley service likely never to be brought back, a sign of things to come that the "luxuries" probably only be confined to the real intercity services run by AWC, LNER, GWR than the likes of SWR, LNR, GA and EMR etc?

As they always should have been to be honest. To ensure “first class” is a product that should be significantly “premium” to the basic offering. On Intercity TOC’s that is the case, not so on regional TOC’s.

I would confine first class to:

Avanti
CrossCountry
EMR
LNER
GWR
Scotrail Inter7City
Transpennine (long distance services, not the 185’s)
Grand Central
Hull Trains
TfW (long distance only)

Some regional services (LNR Euston - Crewe, GA London - Norwich, SWR London - Weymouth/Exeter) MAY justify it, but I’m not so sure as the stock for these is also sometimes used on commuter/shorter regional services which doesn’t justify first class and a reduction in seats is always a bad thing in this case.

Aside from those, I don’t see the need for first class. The rest of the network should be about ensuring maximum capacity, not providing antimacassars and seat reservations to the wealthy few.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNR Euston-Crewe is really the equivalent of LNER's York semifast or EMR's slower Nottinghams, it just happens to be operated by the regional operator instead of the IC one. Therefore I could see sense in it having a dedicated fleet with proper 1st (not the 2+2 sham it has now), though I'd agree 1st on the rest of LNR is pointless, and I doubt many people ever pay for it other than in the peaks on season tickets. In the event that Avanti/DafT decide to bin off e.g. the second Avanti Liverpool, perhaps they should take it on instead using the 807s on order which would be perfect for it. Potentially actually extend it to Liverpool as that second Liverpool.

Waterloo-Weymouth/Exeter are also really long distance services that again happen to come under a commuter operator. With regard to SWR, I'd say the 444s should have proper 2+1 1st, as should the 159s, but not any of the 450s.

TPE should all have 1st, but the local services they're operating for Northern should really go back to Northern, or for now the 1st be declassified. Other 185 services are still long distance ones.

Add TfW to your list - they have plenty of long distance services which should have it.

 

[JamieL]

As they always should have been to be honest. To ensure “first class” is a product that should be significantly “premium” to the basic offering. On Intercity TOC’s that is the case, not so on regional TOC’s.

I would confine first class to:

Avanti
EMR
LNER
GWR
Scotrail Inter7City
Transpennine (long distance services, not the 185’s)
Grand Central
Hull Trains

Some regional services (LNR Euston - Crewe, GA London - Norwich, SWR London - Weymouth/Exeter) MAY justify it, but I’m not so sure as the stock for these is also sometimes used on commuter/shorter regional services which doesn’t justify first class and a reduction in seats is always a bad thing in this case.

Aside from those, I don’t see the need for first class. The rest of the network should be about ensuring maximum capacity, not providing antimacassars and seat reservations to the wealthy few.

Would you put XC in that list as well?

I think I would broadly agree but, from a business traveller perspective, I think its more about time. Less than 30mins and no need as its not worth getting laptop out. Greater than 30mins then First class facilities are greatly appreciated IMHO.

 

[Huntergreed]

List updated accordingly

LNR Euston-Crewe is really the equivalent of LNER's York semifast or EMR's slower Nottinghams, it just happens to be operated by the regional operator instead of the IC one. Therefore I could see sense in it having a dedicated fleet with proper 1st (not the 2+2 sham it has now), though I'd agree 1st on the rest of LNR is pointless, and I doubt many people ever pay for it other than in the peaks on season tickets. In the event that Avanti/DafT decide to bin off e.g. the second Avanti Liverpool, perhaps they should take it on instead using the 807s on order which would be perfect for it. Potentially actually extend it to Liverpool as that second Liverpool.

I agree with this, as long as a proper first class provision is made (not just different (sometimes worse!) seats sandwiched in the middle of a coach).

From up north, it’s certainly the most affordable way to travel to the Capital from the likes of where I live. If proper provisions were made, I think there would be a market for LNR having first on these services.

TPE should all have 1st, but the local services they're operating for Northern should really go back to Northern, or for now the 1st be declassified. Other 185 services are still long distance ones.

That’s a fair point. Northern really should be taking over the non-intercity TPE’s. TPE is a “half and half” operator at present. Allowing them to focus on their intercity operations (whilst allowing northern to expand their regional network) seems a sensible move.

Add TfW to your list - they have plenty of long distance services which should have it.

Added - forgot about them I have to admit (I am rarely ever in Wales so I often find myself forgetting TfW in these discussions)

Would you put XC in that list as well?

Absolutely - that was an oversight! Although XC are getting more 22X’s, they really should be seeking 80X’s sooner rather than later, and these should have sufficient capacity to run more comfortably and to allow them to improve their first provision. Additionally, running diesel under the wires will become more unacceptable as time goes on and the climate crisis worsens.

I think I would broadly agree but, from a business traveller perspective, I think its more about time. Less than 30mins and no need as its not worth getting laptop out. Greater than 30mins then First class facilities are greatly appreciated IMHO.

Indeed, but that argument could suggest that Avanti don’t need first class on Birmingham services as a lot of the stops are less than 30 mins apart! I agree to an extent - but I think the wider use of services must be considered.

Leisure travelers use first class (especially during school holidays) and it’s worth making it a premium product to ensure that continues (as I’m sure the revenue that would return would make it worthwhile)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with this, as long as a proper first class provision is made (not just different (sometimes worse!) seats sandwiched in the middle of a coach).

Sadly that tradition will continue, with the 2+2 layout 730s having Fainsa Sophias (yes, really!) in "1st" and Kiel seats in Standard. The Kiels aren't perfect, they are very hard, but they're better than the Fainsas. It's bizarre.

That said, on the 3+2 units, given how bad the 720s are, I may be forced to "upgrade"

 

[stj]

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

 

[westv]

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

You could say that about any overcrowded train but it would just not be practical.

 

[Huntergreed]

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

Because not all intercity journeys are end to end.

Can you imagine you live in Wigan and commute to Preston on the pendolino everyday. Would you like to queue get a reservation every time, especially if you didn’t know which train you’d be getting back each day?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because not all intercity journeys are end to end.

Can you imagine you live in Wigan and commute to Preston on the pendolino everyday. Would you like to queue get a reservation every time, especially if you didn’t know which train you’d be getting back each day?

Queue to get a reservation? Is your computer and smartphone broken? There are also regional trains between those stations.

(Crewe-Warrington-Wigan is the odd exception, but I bet there are similar stations served only by TGVs?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

An overcrowded train can actually be safer in an accident as people can't be thrown around it. Compulsory reservation has two purposes - passenger comfort and the ability for the TOC to operate lengths of train more aligned with operational expedience than demand. For instance, if you've got a 5-car 80x from Paddington to Reading in the peak as is sometimes unavoidable, it'll always end up rammed even if there are several 9-cars either side of it. With CR, each can only reserve to its relevant capacity.

 

[tivoli]

Travelled First Class on Avanti last year, Glasgow to London. Although we managed to secure our booked seats the train was rammed and First Class declassified. No great loss to us but Avanti offered us First Class return tickets as compensation. All very good but our bookings for BH week are now up in the air with all reservations cancelled, doesn't feel so great now!

Have to make journey Euston to Crewe on BH Monday anyway, is travelling by LNW train a preferable alternative even though I would have to buy new tickets?

 

[6Gman]

Why have we never made inter-city trains reservations only,with no standing? Or will that have to wait until an overcrowded train is involved in an accident?

Because people want to be able to travel when they wish to travel.

And many people would prefer to stand rather than wait for a later train (especially if the train is likely to empty part way).

 

[Agent_Squash]

Because not all intercity journeys are end to end.

Can you imagine you live in Wigan and commute to Preston on the pendolino everyday. Would you like to queue get a reservation every time, especially if you didn’t know which train you’d be getting back each day?

Or, if you wanted to get between Wigan and Warrington BQ by rail at all. There's no local stopper for WCML commuters there - it's Avanti or nothing.

It really is a shame the London Midland Preston service wasn't allowed to continue.

 

[JamieL]

Interesting experience on the 1357 out of Euston (late of course) - Standard Premium in Coach H has been reclassified as First. A few grumpy people being evicted by the TM.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I am not sure about "proper" First Class on TfW
(with the exception of the Premier service) wouldn't the 158s and the new 197s be unsuitable for bigger first class seating, lounges, galley kitchen, space for serving staff etc?

TfW perhaps should have ordered class 397 equivalents from CAF to deliver a real intercity service instead of using regional-commuter stock? Also weren't the new 197s orginally specified with ironing boards for destinations as far as Aberyswyth? Shocking & lack of understanding from the TOC.

 

[JamieL]

Interesting experience on the 1357 out of Euston (late of course) - Standard Premium in Coach H has been reclassified as First. A few grumpy people being evicted by the TM.

...apparently it was because Coach J was reserved for a football team that got on at Watford Junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or, if you wanted to get between Wigan and Warrington BQ by rail at all. There's no local stopper for WCML commuters there - it's Avanti or nothing.

It really is a shame the London Midland Preston service wasn't allowed to continue.

First North Western wanted to do a Crewe to Carlisle all stations local service using 309s, but weren't allowed because of the slamdoors and had nothing else to do it with. Shame that didn't come about.

If I was going to extend the LNR Crewe it'd be Liverpool or Manchester. I don't think Preston-London has enough demand to justify it and travel via Manchester is often a good option anyway.

 

[m4tt]

I am not sure about "proper" First Class on TfW
(with the exception of the Premier service) wouldn't the 158s and the new 197s be unsuitable for bigger first class seating, lounges, galley kitchen, space for serving staff etc?

TFW bought some of the ex Grand Central mk4s for use on Manchester - Swansea routes. I was speaking to the host onboard the premier service a few days ago and she said that the first class onboard would only be a buffet car service rather than a full 3 cource meal. That was why the meals on the premier service is now chargable to bring it in line with these new services as an add on

 

[Bletchleyite]

197s will have proper 2+1 1st in some of, but not all of, the 3-car units.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

TFW bought some of the ex Grand Central mk4s for use on Manchester - Swansea routes. I was speaking to the host onboard the premier service a few days ago and she said that the first class onboard would only be a buffet car service rather than a full 3 cource meal. That was why the meals on the premier service is now chargable to bring it in line with these new services as an add on

That's great, an option offered for Swansea-Manchester. A buffet car is better than nothing. Thought the Mk4s were only limited to Cardiff-Holyhead once a day? Any chance of any Mk4s running on Cambrian services from Birmingham (I'd choose a Mk4 over a 197)?

 

[m4tt]

Thought the Mk4s were only limited to Cardiff-Holyhead once a day?

They use 2 sets now providing 3 services a day in each direction, a breakfast lunch and and dinner service

Any chance of any Mk4s running on Cambrian services from Birmingham (I'd choose a Mk4 over a 197)?

No chance I would imagine due to the signalling I would imagine. Unless they convinced network rail to use the 97s to run it. Unfortunately it will just be 197s

 

[sot]

Onboard an unbelievably rammed pendolino (and no, that isn’t hyperbole. We can’t actually fit into standard class. I’m in the first vestibule before entering first class, and the path to standard is blocked by passengers) - and yet the TM has announced that first class remains classified (and I can see it’s empty from the vestibule of coach G). Photo of the way into standard attached:

View attachment 119446
(photo shows the connecting vestibule from first into standard, rammed with passengers).

As far as I know, it is this busy along all 7 coaches - seems extremely poor judgement on the TM’s behalf not to declassify!

Also makes me wonder - what are the rules for charging a passenger if they want to get to standard accommodation, but physically can’t?

Have a similar photo, full and standing in all 11 carriages. Was declassified however, but standing in first, in all connecting vestibules and all carriages. Some standing for two hours plus after delays.

Noted one of their colleagues promising compensation on their Twitter for journeys having to be made standing over 15 minutes. I don't think it is genuine and probably just a delay repay in disguise!