Train drivers rosters suitable for the 21st Century - what is the current situation?

[strawbrick]

If I understand the situation correctly, the Railway Delivery Group has said that any pay rises can only be paid for by such things as doing away with archaic driver's rosters and making them "fit for the 21st Century", however they have not yet given any indication of what is currently archaic and how it might be changed (and I would certainly not sign up to such a vague proposition!).

As a non-railway man, other than thinking that each train operator, freight or passenger, will have it's own ideas as to how things are done (and you have to ask if there is an industry "standard" from which each "special case" is developed, and if not why not?), I have little idea of how such things are arranged other than thinking that, like lorry drivers there is a statutory limit to the number of hours in a shift and a statutory limit to the number of hours / days before a rest day. I think it might be an idea for this forum to establish some form of baseline from which the RDG might work and also outline why it is so and "cannot" be changed or perhaps improved.

For example, currently::

• Does a shift run from when a driver signs on to when they sign off, or only when they are actually actually driving or having driven somewhere having handed the loco to another driver and "resting" out of the cab and until they return to the cab?
• How long can the driver be in the cab before a break is due?
• What happens if the train is delayed and the driver exceeds the statutory hours?
• In such cases, do they get over-time?
• Is over-time restricted by any statutory limits?
• Do drivers work the same shift pattern each day or does it vary from day to day?
• Is there a minimum time between the end of a shift on day one and the start of a shift on day 2?
• Are rest-days grouped together of given as single days?
• Is there a limit to the number of rest-days that a driver can work?
• How is the length of a rest-day defined - is it at least 24 hours?
• Why have not all operators "bought out" the seven day week (and perhaps also Bank Holidays)?
• What happens if the planned work for shift is less than a full shift, is full shift rostered or is it cut short to when the driver gets back to the depot?

I could go on ...

Finally, heaven forfend that anyone should give Mr Shapps any ideas, but would anyone like to suggest what the RDG might have in mind?

 

[LiftFan]

I work on the maintenance/faulting side of the railway where Sundays are mandatory. Sadly our depot has been on the newest T&Cs since around 2011 time, so our weekend rates and our night rates are 10% enhancement which IMO is pitiful. However, with the increasing amount of leisure travel, we'll have to have a much more usable Sunday service which begs the question of what should be the suitable enhancement for working weekends? I hate having to work them especially since they are barely worth the extra money, sadly I doubt the TOCs will ever agree to keeping Sundays at the current rate of pay. I still think weekends should be much better paid as age dependant we are sacrificing our social or family lives to keep the infrastructure running, and train drivers will be sacrificing family time or hangover time to keep the trains on the rails for the rest of the country.

 

[Javelin_55]

When creating the crew schedules, train planning departments are limited by strict rules known as the Hidden regulations, which govern things like shift lengths, rest time between shifts, break lengths, and when that break should be taken, among many many other things. I'm sure others will have ideas on what doing away with archaic rosters means, but my guess is that it involves trying to crack down on these in some way. Hidden rules are there primarily for prevention of fatigue and there have been several infamous incidents showing what can go wrong if they are not adhered to. There's plenty about them on this forum and elsewhere but below are the queries I can answer:

Shifts run from book-on time to book-off time. Max 12 hours, and no driving after the 11th hour.

At my TOC there is a limit of 3.5 hours "continuous driving". This may not be 3.5 hours constantly sat in the driving seat, but it essentially means you have to take a protected fixed length break after this point.

If the train is delayed the driver is expected to continue unless it breaks the Hidden rules (and if the train is broken down in the middle of nowhere they may not have any say in the matter anyway!) It's my understanding they get overtime for this.

Drivers can work their rest days, again as long as it doesn't contravene Hidden. They must have a minimum of 12 hours between shifts and so this must be checked before any overtime/rest day working is approved. I have seen cancellations happen because a driver was on a severely delayed train which meant their shift had to start later the next day.

Shift patterns are usually divided up into a week of earlies, lates, nights (sometimes middles as well). On each day you're working one of these patterns, your start/finish time might be slightly different each day but will begin and end within a pre-defined range. Again there is plenty about this on the forum.

It's often the case that drivers will book on for work and not actually drive a train for a good while - possibly even the entire shift if they are 'spare' and don't end up being required. In these cases the drivers may be utilised for shunting in a depot, prepping trains, doing route refreshers or spending time with their line managers.

 

[Magdalia]

It is perhaps worth pointing out that the Hidden Regulations are not given that name because they are some sort of secret. They are named after Sir Anthony Hidden QC. He conducted the official inquiry into the Clapham Junction disaster of 1988 and the Hidden Regulations are based on the recommendations in his report.

 

[newtownmgr]

Of course when Grant Shapps referred to archaic 1919 working practices, he was referring to overtime & rest days being voluntary. He obviously he wants working overtime & rest days to be mandatory & forced. Those that remember Clapham will remember one of the findings was unregulated overtime was a contributing cause, this is why we have the hidden agreement (H18) to govern this.

Shapps hasn’t got a clue how the railway works.

His comment regarding drivers not working rest days or overtime seem very ironic when he stated he wanted to stop strikers working rest days & overtime to stop them from recovering lost money.

Not sure if people have seen the recent tweet by Steve White the Southeastern MD. It seems to firmly lay the blame for the ongoing dispute on Grant Shapps!

The TOC’s want this sorted, the Unions want this sorted. Just a shame the Dft/RDG & Shapps don’t.

 

[Gloster]

Rather more widely, forcing people to work overtime and their days off is akin to slave labour and probably contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights. But, hey, if we leave the ECHR and have our own British Rights, we don’t need to include that section. And then of course it doesn’t have to be restricted to railway staff.

 

[strawbrick]

Of course when Grant Shapps referred to archaic 1919 working practices, he was referring to overtime & rest days being voluntary. He obviously he wants working overtime & rest days to be mandatory & forced. Those that remember Clapham will remember one of the findings was unregulated overtime was a contributing cause, this is why we have the hidden agreement (H18) to govern this.

Shapps hasn’t got a clue how the railway works.

His comment regarding drivers not working rest days or overtime seem very ironic when he stated he wanted to stop strikers working rest days & overtime to stop them from recovering lost money.

Not sure if people have seen the recent tweet by Simon White the Southeastern MD. It seems to firmly lay the blame for the ongoing dispute on Grant Shapps!

The TOC’s want this sorted, the Unions want this sorted. Just a shame the Dft/RDG & Shapps don’t.

Of course when Grant Shapps referred to archaic 1919 working practices, he was referring to overtime & rest days being voluntary. He obviously he wants working overtime & rest days to be mandatory & forced. Those that remember Clapham will remember one of the findings was unregulated overtime was a contributing cause, this is why we have the hidden agreement (H18) to govern this.

Shapps hasn’t got a clue how the railway works.

His comment regarding drivers not working rest days or overtime seem very ironic when he stated he wanted to stop strikers working rest days & overtime to stop them from recovering lost money.

Not sure if people have seen the recent tweet by Simon White the Southeastern MD. It seems to firmly lay the blame for the ongoing dispute on Grant Shapps!

The TOC’s want this sorted, the Unions want this sorted. Just a shame the Dft/RDG & Shapps don’t.

Try as a may I cannot get to it so please send a link to the tweet by Simon White.
Thanks.

 

[newtownmgr]

Try as a may I cannot get to it so please send a link to the tweet by Simon White.
Thanks.

My mistake. It’s Steve White. @SteveWhiteRail

 

[DelayRepay]

For those who cannot access Twitter, here are a couple of his tweets. A complete contrast to the tone used by another TOC's MD.

18 August:

I apologise that customers are unable to travel on many of our routes today due to industrial action. Please be kind to our colleagues. They are here to help you. Details of last trains tonight and (later) first trains in the morning are shown on stations posters and our website

Then, responding to a Tweet from a City AM which said 'Mick Lynch says rail unions can still afford MONTHS more strikes, as 40,000 workers walk out today bringing the UK's transport network to a grinding halt', Steve White replied

Does any railway colleague or customer really want this to last for months? Time for a ceasefire. Our people deserve a pay rise and job security. Our industry exists to serve our customers and our communities. More talks are needed, then some more and then some more

He also regularly re-tweets messages from his customers praising different members of staff who've provided good service.

 

[Agent_Squash]

For those who cannot access Twitter, here are a couple of his tweets. A complete contrast to the tone used by another TOC's MD.

Interesting that David Horne of LNER has retweeted Steve as well - 2/3 of Shapps’ own TOCs!

 

[ComUtoR]

If I understand the situation correctly, the Railway Delivery Group has said that any pay rises can only be paid for by such things as doing away with archaic driver's rosters and making them "fit for the 21st Century",

They aren't.

however they have not yet given any indication of what is currently archaic and how it might be changed (and I would certainly not sign up to such a vague proposition!).

It's because they either don't know, or won't tell. It's political rhetoric and media spin.

For example, currently::

• Does a shift run from when a driver signs on to when they sign off, or only when they are actually actually driving or having driven somewhere having handed the loco to another driver and "resting" out of the cab and until they return to the cab?
• How long can the driver be in the cab before a break is due?
• What happens if the train is delayed and the driver exceeds the statutory hours?
• In such cases, do they get over-time?
• Is over-time restricted by any statutory limits?
• Do drivers work the same shift pattern each day or does it vary from day to day?
• Is there a minimum time between the end of a shift on day one and the start of a shift on day 2?
• Are rest-days grouped together of given as single days?
• Is there a limit to the number of rest-days that a driver can work?
• How is the length of a rest-day defined - is it at least 24 hours?
• Why have not all operators "bought out" the seven day week (and perhaps also Bank Holidays)?
• What happens if the planned work for shift is less than a full shift, is full shift rostered or is it cut short to when the driver gets back to the depot?

None of that is the important part. Rosters are broken for other reasons. Many TOCs have quite efficient rostering and considering the complex nature of the railway they are shockingly good at ensuring work is covered.

I could go on ...

Please do.

Finally, heaven forfend that anyone should give Mr Shapps any ideas, but would anyone like to suggest what the RDG might have in mind?

As I stated earlier. I don't believe they know. Only those directly involved at the RDG level will be able to tell you what they want.

Productivity isn't going to come from rosters. That's a smokescreen.

One of the ideas that my TOC are floating is pretty absurd but will probably happen.

 

[DelayRepay]

Productivity isn't going to come from rosters. That's a smokescreen.

This is true. People need to remember that the TOCs have operated as commercial businesses for the best part of thirty years. If there were efficiency gains to be had, they would have happened by now.

Also if you strip out all the practices that are there for safety reasons, there's not a huge amount left that can be changed. And of course the more you sweat the rosters, the more likely you are to experience disruption, and you'll be less able to recover quickly.