Avanti in crisis talks to consider OLR

[Howardh]

Isn’t Avanti Still a franchise though? Until it expires and then the “New Contract Award” gets sent considering that Avanti does not go enter an OLR? Can’t expect someone who’s main job is to level up Manchester and Generally make it a better place to know what is franchised and what is not. But I’ve thought the Abolishment of Franchise happened when each franchise expired then they enter a new contract based agreement where on as you mentioned DfT decides Timetable (Thought they already do decide timetable without the abolishment of the franchising system) and so on (funding)

Please correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t really know too much about the new franchising end or now system as usual as shapps has messed that up too…

To me, a simple passenger, any train not run under the old "British rail" is a franchise!

There were comments about Northern above, am I right in saying it's still being run as a subsidiary of the Department for Transport's public sector owning group DOHL (quite from Wikipedia) which to me is gibberish, (what does it mean exactly?) but my input is the service is still imperfect but hundreds of times better than it was when it was run by whomever ran it late 10's.

So if Avanti ended up the same way I would raise two cheers immediately! However franchise or whatever it is, needs deleting and a completely new company run it, or Virgin!!, even if it takes a year to get fully staffed and the current staff onboard and happy to serve both the company and the passenger.

Whatever...the government should admit defeat and renationalise the lot.

 

[Energy]

There were comments about Northern above, am I right in saying it's still being run as a subsidiary of the Department for Transport's public sector owning group DOHL (quite from Wikipedia) which to me is gibberish, (what does it mean exactly?) but my input is the service is still imperfect but hundreds of times better than it was when it was run by whomever ran it late 10's.

DOHL is the DfT's holding company, effectively means its a DfT operation with consultants hired in to run the place. The management at Avanti isn't too different to the late 2010s but with the DfT standing over its shoulders. Unfortunately without significant change I doubt staff morale will change much.

OLR is badly named, hardly a 'last resort' when 3 TOCs are on it. The GBR shakeup is really needed, privatisation somewhat worked when companies were left to their own (Chiltern). It is effectively government run right now, just with the DfT having a shield.

 

[Bayum]

So, are these talks confirmed? Would we know if they actually took place or would the first be that OLR has taken over the franchise?

 

[irish_rail]

I don't get the Virgin love in. My only memories of it where rude staff and the horribly tacky interior of the Pendolinos and Voyagers (thankfully now being improved). The current situation is bad but once these 250 new drivers are trained up surely folk will see a big difference. Get rid of the muppet that made the accusations on staff breaking the law and that will help keep morale a little higher, and in 6 months time things will be far better.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I don't get the Virgin love in. My only memories of it where rude staff and the horribly tacky interior of the Pendolinos and Voyagers (thankfully now being improved). The current situation is bad but once these 250 new drivers are trained up surely folk will see a big difference. Get rid of the muppet that made the accusations on staff breaking the law and that will help keep morale a little higher, and in 6 months time things will be far better.

Because for the people who actually used the service regularly, it was reliable, the trains were modern (most people don’t find them tacky at all, it’s only something I’ve seen on these forums) and the staff were genuinely some of the more enthusiastic members of the railway.

This, plus good advance fares and admittedly the Virgin ‘aura’ (nobody ever said with excitement they were getting on the First train, did they?) meant that VT did have a very good reputation.

Avanti took that and trashed it - the only real thing that remains is the stock and some of the staff. It’s a shadow of its former self.

 

[jfollows]

I don't get the Virgin love in.

Virgin was over-rated but adequate. At the end of the day the service was reliable enough and the customer service was generally appropriate after disruption. None of this can be said about Avanti from the start, and it's only got worse since.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin was over-rated but adequate. At the end of the day the service was reliable enough and the customer service was generally appropriate after disruption. None of this can be said about Avanti from the start, and it's only got worse since.

Exactly. Even if you didn't like Virgin tack, the service was punctual and reliable, the foundation of a train service, and staff were generally polite.

Avanti was rubbish more or less from day one. Yes, I like 80x and while I haven't tried one yet think I will like the refurb, but in the end if it isn't punctual and reliable it's useless.

 

[duncanp]

Virgin was over-rated but adequate. At the end of the day the service was reliable enough and the customer service was generally appropriate after disruption. None of this can be said about Avanti from the start, and it's only got worse since.

For one thing, when they launched their website, they initially removed the ability to select your seat when making a reservation.

Then they jacked up the price of a weekend first supplement from £10 to £20 (for Birmingham to London) before getting rid of weekend first altogether.

These little niggles can just annoy customers, and cause them to seek alternative means of travel.

 

[Clarence Yard]

So, are these talks confirmed? Would we know if they actually took place or would the first be that OLR has taken over the franchise?

Avanti are the next TOC to move from a post COVID ERMA/EMA arrangement to an NRC (It was scheduled for October). As part of those negotiations, OLR is always the other option for the DfT so OLR will be contacting the TOC as a matter of course so that if the NRC negotiations fail, they can step in. That is completely normal and has happened with all the other TOCs going through the same NRC procedure.

People often get confused about what OLR is and does in a TOC. It isn’t a management team - it’s usually only a couple of non-executive directors who sit on the main TOC board. The board is chaired by one of these two non-execs and if any of the executives need removing, they see that it happens.

So the difference between a DfT OLR TOC and a DfT “franchised” TOC is essentially one of ownership. Instead of a “franchise” having an “owning group”, which receives a management fee (and performance fee) for running the TOC on the DfT’s behalf, the OLR TOC is run as a government subsidiary with paid consultants “minding the store” for the DfT.

Both are now under the same DfT cost control rules, which can inhibit progress to resolve issues.

 

[Bayum]

Avanti are the next TOC to move from a post COVID ERMA/EMA arrangement to an NRC (It was scheduled for October). As part of those negotiations, OLR is always the other option for the DfT so OLR will be contacting the TOC as a matter of course so that if the NRC negotiations fail, they can step in. That is completely normal and has happened with all the other TOCs going through the same NRC procedure.

People often get confused about what OLR is and does in a TOC. It isn’t a management team - it’s usually only a couple of non-executive directors who sit on the main TOC board. The board is chaired by one of these two non-execs and if any of the executives need removing, they see that it happens.

So the difference between a DfT OLR TOC and a DfT “franchised” TOC is essentially one of ownership. Instead of a “franchise” having an “owning group”, which receives a management fee (and performance fee) for running the TOC on the DfT’s behalf, the OLR TOC is run as a government subsidiary with paid consultants “minding the store” for the DfT.

Both are now under the same DfT cost control rules, which can inhibit progress to resolve issues.

So are the talks that are mentioned in this thread confirmed? All I asked

 

[jfollows]

People often get confused about what OLR is and does in a TOC.

Thank you for this post; it's interesting and informative. I had to look up "NRC" - National Rail Contracts - and "ERMA" - Emergency Recovery Management Agreement - but they're probably explained earlier in this thread anyway.

 

[bramling]

Because for the people who actually used the service regularly, it was reliable, the trains were modern (most people don’t find them tacky at all, it’s only something I’ve seen on these forums) and the staff were genuinely some of the more enthusiastic members of the railway.

This, plus good advance fares and admittedly the Virgin ‘aura’ (nobody ever said with excitement they were getting on the First train, did they?) meant that VT did have a very good reputation.

Avanti took that and trashed it - the only real thing that remains is the stock and some of the staff. It’s a shadow of its former self.

VWC did have its issues, anyone who ever attempted to use Coach K would likely have formed a more negative view of VWC as an operator, and some of their train managers (mainly London ones) could be rather prickly at times.

But equally VWC did seem a pretty solid operation operationally, and there was certainly a sense of pride from many of the staff. It’s a shame Avanti seem to have trashed all this.

 

[pdeaves]

So are the talks that are mentioned in this thread confirmed? All I asked

Yes, talks are taking place regarding the next phase of West Coast contract. No, talks are not taking place specifically to start the process of moving to OLR.

 

[DanNCL]

Surely stripping First of the franchise will just be counter productive. Fire the bloke who accused the staff of breaking the law , get a decent replacement in and move on.

Getting rid of Shapps will be easier said than done!

Isn’t Avanti Still a franchise though? Until it expires and then the “New Contract Award” gets sent considering that Avanti does not go enter an OLR? Can’t expect someone who’s main job is to level up Manchester and Generally make it a better place to know what is franchised and what is not. But I’ve thought the Abolishment of Franchise happened when each franchise expired then they enter a new contract based agreement where on as you mentioned DfT decides Timetable (Thought they already do decide timetable without the abolishment of the franchising system) and so on (funding)

Please correct me if I’m wrong. I don’t really know too much about the new franchising end or now system as usual as shapps has messed that up too…

All franchises were terminated in 2020 and contracts were changed to some form of emergency contract, I can't remember the name of it now.

I don't get the Virgin love in. My only memories of it where rude staff and the horribly tacky interior of the Pendolinos and Voyagers (thankfully now being improved). The current situation is bad but once these 250 new drivers are trained up surely folk will see a big difference. Get rid of the muppet that made the accusations on staff breaking the law and that will help keep morale a little higher, and in 6 months time things will be far better.

Virgin weren't the best by any means but at least there was a decent chance of your train turning up. There isn't with Avanti.

But equally VWC did seem a pretty solid operation operationally, and there was certainly a sense of pride from many of the staff. It’s a shame Avanti seem to have trashed all this.

Exactly the opposite happened on the ECML. There was a sense of pride from many of the staff under East Coast which vanished under VTEC, and has largely returned again under LNER.

 

[Howardh]

Gobsmacked, just gobsmacked. Our Minister for Transport says there are "four trains per hour between Manchester and London" on Breakfast TV today.

There's one. One.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1560534136129212416

This level of incompetance has reached yet a new low and that's considering how low the Tories have left the bar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

VWC did have its issues, anyone who ever attempted to use Coach K would likely have formed a more negative view of VWC as an operator, and some of their train managers (mainly London ones) could be rather prickly at times.

Yes, I've certainly criticised aspects of their operation. The Coach K "messroom" was one notable problem (I wonder what they do now, gob off about their employer in the kitchen?), as remains the outrageous Anytime fares pioneered by Virgin and copied by everyone else, plus there's so much wrong with Voyagers that a book could be written on it, and XC has suffered from the bad decisions of Operation Pumpkin for 20+ years now. And talking toilets just made you cringe. But overall the West Coast operation was punctual and reliable and the staff were generally nice, so they had the core stuff right.

But equally VWC did seem a pretty solid operation operationally, and there was certainly a sense of pride from many of the staff. It’s a shame Avanti seem to have trashed all this.

Indeed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

Exactly the opposite happened on the ECML. There was a sense of pride from many of the staff under East Coast which vanished under VTEC, and has largely returned again under LNER.

VTEC was not a Virgin operation, it was a Stagecoach operation with more in common with EMT than VTWC. They just paid to licence the brand. It was always a VERY different TOC from the Virgin Rail Group-owned VTWC.

What is notable is that the Virgin bid for continuing VTWC would still have ended the VRG operation and moved it into the same structure, led by Stagecoach, as VTEC, so may actually have been no better than Avanti.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Andy Burnham wasn’t coming over as well as he ought to and he still thinks Avanti is a franchise! He doesn’t or won’t realise that the DfT signs off your timetable these days, even the emergency ones that he was complaining about. He could have skewered Shapps if he had said that he didn’t even know what his staff were agreeing to.

That Newsnight interview with Andy Burnham, and this morning's with Grant Shapps, were infuriating.
Burnham only wanted to talk about stripping Avanti of the "franchise", while the wider debate was about the strikes generally, and neither topic got anywhere.
Shapps just wants to turn the heat on the unions, and made no constructive proposals, in fact he seems to be threatening enforced change on the railway if the NR deal is not put to the unions.

It probably helps Avanti that it is Labour mayors who are demanding they lose the contract.
A Tory government isn't going to jump to their tune, is it.
If Andy Street (West Midlands mayor, Tory) joined the clamour, they might take more notice.

 

[Howardh]

That Newsnight interview with Andy Burnham, and this morning's with Grant Shapps, were infuriating.
Burnham only wanted to talk about stripping Avanti of the "franchise", while the wider debate was about the strikes generally, and neither topic got anywhere.
Shapps just wants to turn the heat on the unions, and made no constructive proposals, in fact he seems to be threatening enforced change on the railway if the NR deal is not put to the unions.

It probably helps Avanti that it is Labour mayors who are demanding they lose the contract.
A Tory government isn't going to jump to their tune, is it.
If Andy Street (West Midlands mayor, Tory) joined the clamour, they might take more notice.

Whe have two Tory MP's in Bolton, so the Manchester/London line affects us, and I have heard nothing from either.

 

[JamieL]

Ongoing disruption on the railways is exactly what the Tory Government wants.

 

[Howardh]

Ongoing disruption on the railways is exactly what the Tory Government wants.

Not sure why because if everyone moves to the road it will clog everyone up?!

 

[Bantamzen]

Not sure why because if everyone moves to the road it will clog everyone up?!

Two reasons instantly spring to mind. One, it gives the government a handy scapegoat for the delivery of worse services in many parts post-Covid. And two the government may well be eying up more anti-union legislation, and prolonged industrial action on the rails is a handy catalyst for just that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Exactly the opposite happened on the ECML. There was a sense of pride from many of the staff under East Coast which vanished under VTEC, and has largely returned again under LNER.

A sense of arrogance has surfaced from LNER.

 

[John Luxton]

Ongoing disruption on the railways is exactly what the Tory Government wants.

That might have been the case in the 1980s - but do you really think so today? They appear to be very much pro-rail than they were 60s to 80s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A sense of arrogance has surfaced from LNER.

I'm not sure it has. Maybe you're too young to remember GNER? Now that was an operator with an air of arrogance, and one that bigged up its First Class passengers while treating Standard passengers like muck on its collective shoe, while upgrading to Weekend First got you a proper "hoi polloi in posh class" sneer from some of the staff who almost felt insulted to issue it.

 

[JamieL]

That might have been the case in the 1980s - but do you really think so today? They appear to be very much pro-rail than they were 60s to 80s.

I think circumstances have forced them to acknowledge rail more - the HGV shortage etc. But cancellation of HS2 east, the link with the WCML, these strikes, reduced regional flying tariffs etc show how rail is the goto punchbag for the Tories to further their politics. I am absolutely certain the Tory Government sees more benefit to them in more strikes than restoring the service on the WCML.

 

[DanNCL]

A sense of arrogance has surfaced from LNER.

No worse than it was under VTEC.

That might have been the case in the 1980s - but do you really think so today? They appear to be very much pro-rail than they were 60s to 80s.

Yes. The Tories have always considered the railways to be for 'the underclass'.

I'm not sure it has. Maybe you're too young to remember GNER? Now that was an operator with an air of arrogance, and one that bigged up its First Class passengers while treating Standard passengers like muck on its collective shoe, while upgrading to Weekend First got you a proper "hoi polloi in posh class" sneer from some of the staff who almost felt insulted to issue it.

That wasn't ever my recolation of GNER. Granted I was very young at the time, but I think I would have remembered if it were as bad as you're claiming it was. NXEC, now they were a bad operator.

 

[zwk500]

That might have been the case in the 1980s - but do you really think so today? They appear to be very much pro-rail than they were 60s to 80s.

It's not about whether or not they're pro-rail (I suspect they're personally ambivalent but recognise most of their voter base use the train for work) but that they're anti-union, and see the Railways as the one place Thatcher didn't quite get the job done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That wasn't ever my recolation of GNER. Granted I was very young at the time, but I think I would have remembered if it were as bad as you're claiming it was. NXEC, now they were a bad operator.

We can certainly agree on that. It had all the quality and atmosphere of a rotting old coach sat spewing out fumes at Digbeth*.

Generally on the East Coast it seems nationalised = good and privatised = bad.

Not as consistent on the West Coast, but that was chronic underfunding. BR would have been good with all the money VT got, too. I wish we'd seen InterCity 250.

* I am well aware NatEx and Digbeth are rather improved now!

 

[ymbongo]

I can't see Avanti being forcibly removed, every time Shifty Shapps appears he seems to be 100% on their side with the anti-staff approach.

 

[WizCastro197]

Getting rid of Shapps will be easier said than done!


All franchises were terminated in 2020 and contracts were changed to some form of emergency contract, I can't remember the name of it now.


Virgin weren't the best by any means but at least there was a decent chance of your train turning up. There isn't with Avanti.


Exactly the opposite happened on the ECML. There was a sense of pride from many of the staff under East Coast which vanished under VTEC, and has largely returned again under LNER.

Is it the ERMA Contract. Emergency Recovery Measures Agreement? So GTR's expired in March so were given anew NR contract until 2025? Okay My stamens needed a slight bit of tweaking then if this is the case. They entered the Erma then when it expires a new contract award is given.

In Regards to the Grant Shapps BBC interview, I think it's very scary that the transport minister doesn't even know what a direct train is? I think he believes it is a Train that stops nowhere between say Manchester Piccadilly and Euston? Thats a non-stop train?

Direct, Please correct me if I have got this simple definition wrong. Is a Train that gets you from A-C without getting off the train at B and then getting on another one to get to C? I think I am wrong