What’s going on with Thameslink?

[Bikeman78]

Yes But it didn't work. Part of it did and it would've been more useful if the train had remained on the fast line to Selhurst and as JonathanH Said that the allocation to Platform 4 was puzzling as it was occupied and platform 1 was free.

Side note, is there a crossover onto the Fast line immediately after Purley? In a Northbound Direction. Because if there is then it would be interesting for Reigate Services to switch onto Fast line there and not at Selhurst.

Yes there is but it's rarely been used since the collision in 1989. Trains tend to cross at Stoats Nest Jn which also has the advantage of being 70 mph.

 

[Bald Rick]

How does it cost them money in the new world of ERMAs and NRCs?

Schedule 8 still applies, and AIUI there are targets for self caused cancellations and the like.

 

[XIX7007177]

The TOC are not incentivised at any level to cancel a train of their own ‘cause’. It will cost them money, both to NR and DfT.

what is most likely to be the case here is that somewhere further along the rolling stock diagram there isn’t a driver available, and so the train is cancelled now to avoid it being stuck at, say, Finsbury Park with no driver to take it forward. Of course ‘your’ driver wouldn’t necessarily know that.

Normally told you won’t have a relief and get asked to dump it in a yard

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Schedule 8 still applies, and AIUI there are targets for self caused cancellations and the like.

Isn't that just money go around now with the TOC just billing DfT as expenditure incurred.

My assessment is it will impact on their ability to earn the performance fee potentially against the operational performance metric and possibly the customer satisfaction metric if they pick the wrong day to do a survey.

So my take is there is a lot less disincentive on the TOC now to just can off services but would need to rake through the 600+ page contracts to see what the specifics are.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't that just money go around now with the TOC just billing DfT as expenditure incurred.

No, it’s bottom line.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Just found out something quite naughty. The cancellation due to lack of train crew is sometimes a downright lie. Talking to a GN driver that is a friend of mine. He has turned up to work to drive a train and been told it's cancelled due to shortage of train crew , on several occasions. So it was cancelled due to lack of train crew, even though it had train crew.

The driver might be there, but the train isn't. Because the train is somewhere else because of a shortage of crew. So the reason is accurate. Its just everyone assumes its the driver of that particular service that isn't there.

 

[Failed Unit]

Today I had for the first time this week the perfect journey. Both in and out on time.

 

[baz962]

The driver might be there, but the train isn't. Because the train is somewhere else because of a shortage of crew. So the reason is accurate. Its just everyone assumes its the driver of that particular service that isn't there.

Nope. It quite often was empty in the yard , his home depot and was an out and back trip and could be stabled back in the same yard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

The TOC are not incentivised at any level to cancel a train of their own ‘cause’. It will cost them money, both to NR and DfT.

what is most likely to be the case here is that somewhere further along the rolling stock diagram there isn’t a driver available, and so the train is cancelled now to avoid it being stuck at, say, Finsbury Park with no driver to take it forward. Of course ‘your’ driver wouldn’t necessarily know that.

Nope. Several times it was empty in his home depot and was an out and back trip and could be stabled back in the same depot.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Nope. It quite often was empty in the yard , his home depot and was an out and back trip and could be stabled back in the same yard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==


Nope. Several times it was empty in his home depot and was an out and back trip and could be stabled back in the same depot.

And what's the walking time to the yard? Plus the prep time? An hour?
Then the driver will refuse it on the basis it'll take them over their time, into their break, or Network Rail will refuse to allow it to be planned to run a train that late because of the disruption it will cause.

 

[XIX7007177]

And what's the walking time to the yard? Plus the prep time? An hour?
Then the driver will refuse it on the basis it'll take them over their time, into their break, or Network Rail will refuse to allow it to be planned to run a train that late because of the disruption it will cause.

Often trains are prepped ready to go in the yards.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Often trains are prepped ready to go in the yards.

Walking time? Walking time to put the stock away again, then back, delaying the driver to their next working or their break?

 

[XIX7007177]

Walking time? Walking time to put the stock away again, then back, delaying the driver to their next working or their break?

I’m not sure why you are having trouble believing the story of a cancellation when driver and stock are available.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I’m not sure why you are having trouble believing the story of a cancellation when driver and stock are available.

Its not as simple as people believe to run a train just because a driver is present

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

Yes there is but it's rarely been used since the collision in 1989. Trains tend to cross at Stoats Nest Jn which also has the advantage of being 70 mph.

It does get used, but the signal is approach controlled, its a 20mph restriction, it blocks the down fast while its used.
Its quicker for a train to cross at Stoats Nest and call at Purley, but the 9Js have a 9T rapidly approaching from the rear, which will cause a delay if they call at Purley

 

[XIX7007177]

Its not as simple as people believe to run a train just because a driver is present

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

Fully aware of that, but the story of a train being cancelled when a simple there and back could be completed with driver and stock available does ring true.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Fully aware of that, but the story of a train being cancelled when a simple there and back could be completed with driver and stock available does ring true.

Is the stock in the platform ready to go?

 

[XIX7007177]

Is the stock in the platform ready to go?

Yes.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yes.

That's not what the poster in the posts said that I was referring to. They said it was in the yard. Yards quite often have 30+ minutes walking time to them

 

[XIX7007177]

That's not what the poster in the posts said that I was referring to. They said it was in the yard. Yards quite often have 30+ minutes walking time to them

And some don’t. Some the yard is less or equal to walking to the station.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've been sat on trains, On time, setup and ready, no disruption, and a single trip left. Announcement comes over the tannoy... "Cancelled due to shortage of Traincrew.". Signaller was unaware, platform staff unaware,. Train then run ECS to location.

Not the first time and certainly won't be the last. No doubt there will be some spurious reason for the cancellation

 

[43066]

I've been sat on trains, On time, setup and ready, no disruption, and a single trip left. Announcement comes over the tannoy... "Cancelled due to shortage of Traincrew.". Signaller was unaware, platform staff unaware,. Train then run ECS to location.

Not the first time and certainly won't be the last. No doubt there will be some spurious reason for the cancellation

Same here. It’s often used as an excuse…

 

[baz962]

Walking time? Walking time to put the stock away again, then back, delaying the driver to their next working or their break?

I can assure you that my friend was more than happy to take the train. Unless you have a minimum PNB, then you will have time. But if not then surely let him take it and cancel the trains next trip when you actually don't have a driver. In the meantime you might have sorted a driver.

 

[WizCastro197]

In The Redhill Area today, Thameslink seems to be running okay today. They may have been some stuff earlier but I wasn't looking.

Southern Have advised this Sunday and Today not to travel and only if necessary.

Im travelling on Sunday with a small connection time so even a few minutes delay could be bad.

They advise that Trains will be extremely busy and that in some instances you may not be able to board? Does this statement stand for itself or is it being used just to turn people away?

 

[Surreytraveller]

In The Redhill Area today, Thameslink seems to be running okay today. They may have been some stuff earlier but I wasn't looking.

Southern Have advised this Sunday and Today not to travel and only if necessary.

Im travelling on Sunday with a small connection time so even a few minutes delay could be bad.

They advise that Trains will be extremely busy and that in some instances you may not be able to board? Does this statement stand for itself or is it being used just to turn people away?

Its basically a Sunday service following a day with hardly any trains, so everyone who needed to travel on Saturday will likely be travelling Sunday as well.
Its just trying to suggest to people if you don't have to travel, then don't, as trains are likely to be busier than usual

 

[WizCastro197]

Its basically a Sunday service following a day with hardly any trains, so everyone who needed to travel on Saturday will likely be travelling Sunday as well.
Its just trying to suggest to people if you don't have to travel, then don't, as trains are likely to be busier than usual

What are the odds that services will be severely delayed? I have 3 back up plans haha but I dont really want to have to take them

 

[Horizon22]

I’m not sure why you are having trouble believing the story of a cancellation when driver and stock are available.

Just because a driver and stock are avilable at point B for a service to C, there may have been issues between A-B or C-D. You may end up with an issue on the return leg after the booked driver takes the train to a terminus, then has a break, and the outward driver diagram is uncovered. Then you block up a platform for potentially hours or strand the stock. Timetables, stock and crew diagrams can be complex, especially so at somewhere like GTR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

I've been sat on trains, On time, setup and ready, no disruption, and a single trip left. Announcement comes over the tannoy... "Cancelled due to shortage of Traincrew.". Signaller was unaware, platform staff unaware,. Train then run ECS to location.

Not the first time and certainly won't be the last. No doubt there will be some spurious reason for the cancellation

As above. Just becomes the first journey is ready, the second may not be. Of course some times, there's genuine confusion (or just errors) about driver displacement & location with not enough staff to confirm the location of every member of crew in a timely manner, notably worse during significant disruption.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Just because a driver and stock are avilable at point B for a service to C, there may have been issues between A-B or C-D. You may end up with an issue on the return leg after the booked driver takes the train to a terminus, then has a break, and the outward driver diagram is uncovered. Then you block up a platform for potentially hours or strand the stock. Timetables, stock and crew diagrams can be complex, especially so at somewhere like GTR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==



As above. Just becomes the first journey is ready, the second may not be. Of course some times, there's genuine confusion (or just errors) about driver displacement & location with not enough staff to confirm the location of every member of crew in a timely manner, notably worse during significant disruption.

Exactly. And when things are that complex, it reaches a certain point where control (which can mean one person) is physically unable to keep track of every member of crew and every piece of stock, especially if that means communicating with people. People don't answer phones, they forget, they pass on messages incorrectly.
When one person sees one train and one driver, it appears easy and obvious. But try dealing with a dozen of those all at the same time

 

[ComUtoR]

]As above. Just becomes the first journey is ready, the second may not be. Of course some times, there's genuine confusion (or just errors) about driver displacement & location with not enough staff to confirm the location of every member of crew in a timely manner, notably worse during significant disruption.

Not sure you read my post. There was only my trip left and then it ran ECS. Therefore the train could have run.

I've run ECS on my booked journey many times. We know and understand that we don't see the whole picture. We also understand that mistakes happen, the problem is that 'mistakes' happening on a regular basis is incredibly suspicious when it's for the same reason(s). Especially when you drive the train on its booked path, just as empties.

 

[XIX7007177]

Just because a driver and stock are avilable at point B for a service to C, there may have been issues between A-B or C-D. You may end up with an issue on the return leg after the booked driver takes the train to a terminus, then has a break, and the outward driver diagram is uncovered. Then you block up a platform for potentially hours or strand the stock. Timetables, stock and crew diagrams can be complex, especially so at somewhere like GTR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==



As above. Just becomes the first journey is ready, the second may not be. Of course some times, there's genuine confusion (or just errors) about driver displacement & location with not enough staff to confirm the location of every member of crew in a timely manner, notably worse during significant disruption.

Yeah thanks for trying to explain to me what I’ve seen happen first hand with none of the complexities you mentioned. Appreciated.

 

[baz962]

Not sure you read my post. There was only my trip left and then it ran ECS. Therefore the train could have run.

I've run ECS on my booked journey many times. We know and understand that we don't see the whole picture. We also understand that mistakes happen, the problem is that 'mistakes' happening on a regular basis is incredibly suspicious when it's for the same reason(s). Especially when you drive the train on its booked path, just as empties.

And of course , we do understand that things go wrong. But to lie about it and/or insinuate it's train crew is wrong on many levels.

 

[Horizon22]

And of course , we do understand that things go wrong. But to lie about it and/or insinuate it's train crew is wrong on many levels.

Ultimately it’s very easy to incorrectly attribute a reason on the CIS, especially if it’s a range of issues combined and nothing “fits” neatly. Obviously accuracy is ideal but TOCs will try not to cancel first and foremost. It’s impossible to comment on every eventuality and situation.