"Smart" meters spamming from electric supplier

[D821]

I'd be pretty surprised if the average smackhead was hacking smart meters to ascertain it someone wasn't the house before breaking in.
It's not even an accurate method, I could be sat at home using little electricity or out with the washing machine and tumble dryer on.

If someone genuinely thinks their smart meter poses a security threat I'd suggest they get rid of their internet connectivity and mobile phone first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My electricity usage at night will be exactly the same whether I am asleep in bed, or staying somewhere else. I turn electrical things off before going to bed, just like I do before I leave the house.

I agree that electricity usage could indicate that someone was awake in the house but I am still not convinced that someone who had the skills to hack into my electricity meter just to find out what time I go to bed.

There's a saying thick as thieves (which to my and his entertainment my Polish mate can't say). Burglars are not the most intelligent type; if they were they'd be doing something better with their lives. They might "stake" a particular house out, but more likely they'll just rock up at a likely time when people are in bed/out (I bet WFH has done for a lot of daytime burglary!), look which house is empty and do that one.

Premium car theft to order is a bit different, but that's generally done at night whether you're in or not by craning it onto a low loader, as cars are rather hard to nick these days, or sometimes by using a hooked stick to grab keys from the muppets who leave them within sight and reach of the door.

I bet there has never been a burglary done by hacking someone's smart meter data, nor will there ever be. A private investigator might, but what are people on here doing to be able to trigger that?!

 

[MikeWM]

My electricity usage at night will be exactly the same whether I am asleep in bed, or staying somewhere else. I turn electrical things off before going to bed, just like I do before I leave the house.

I agree that electricity usage could indicate that someone was awake in the house but I am still not convinced that someone who had the skills to hack into my electricity meter just to find out what time I go to bed.

To be honest, I mostly agree. I'm really just pointing out that this is yet another case of a vast amount of data being collected, which when pieced together (by whoever) could be used to make up an alarmingly accurate collection of information about you (and everyone else). This is something that has never happened before in human history, and we're walking into it without considering what the consequences may be. Maybe this information will never be used for nefarious purposes, but I'm far from reassured about that.

I think the bigger issue here, that does concern me rather more, is that smart meters allow a greater level of granularity of control over the energy supply to your home, and I suspect very strongly that will be used to the advantage of the energy companies rather than the consumer. For one example, I saw a letter on Twitter earlier today from one of the electricity companies, threatening to switch a smart meter over to pre-payment only if the customer cancelled their direct debit. Now they can do that with a traditional meter too of course, but it requires significantly more effort on their part than just pushing a button at HQ - they have to actually visit the property to do so and physically replace the meter.

Edit : here we go. Sorry that's its the S*n :-/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/19515635/warning-households-on-smart-meters-not-cancel-direct-debits/

Households with smart meters are being warned they could be moved on to prepayment plans if they stop paying their direct debits.

Suppliers can switch them remotely to a mode where they pay upfront for energy costs rather then being billed regularly.

Energy customers could face debt collectors and suppliers can install a prepayment meter.

Traditionally this is done via a court warrant so they can enter the property to install the device.

Many with smart meters may not know that this can be done without needing to enter the home, and that prepayment meters are more expensive.

 

[Busaholic]

Now they can do that with a traditional meter too of course, but it requires significantly more effort on their part than just pushing a button at HQ - they have to actually visit the property to do so and physically replace the meter.

If you're registered with them as 'vulnerable' they're not allowed to do that, in theory anyway, particularly if you are up-to-date with payment. I choose to pay when I receive my bill for actual consumption, or estimated provided it has not been over-estimated, in which case I deduct what I consider to be a reasonable amount from the bill when I pay by debit card on their automated phone system. They would never be allowed access to my property without good reason.

 

[DelayRepay]

They would never be allowed access to my property without good reason.

What would you consider 'good reason'? Ultimately if you're behind with your payments they can ask a court for permission to force entry and install a pre-payment meter.

(Post edited, I incorrectly typed 'install a smart meter')

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that if you amass lots of debt you should go onto prepayment to encourage you to manage usage properly. What I do think is that the law should require the cost for pre-payment to be at worst exactly the same as post-payment.

 

[MikeWM]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that if you amass lots of debt you should go onto prepayment to encourage you to manage usage properly.

In general I would agree, and of course you ought to pay for a service you receive and use and there are consequences if you don't. But these are hardly normal times - we're entering entirely uncharted waters in energy prices and many more people are about to fall into serious debt.

What I do think is that the law should require the cost for pre-payment to be at worst exactly the same as post-payment.

Yes, I agree. And, incredibly, Keir Starmer has come up with a policy to do just that! I suppose he had to come up with something eventually.

 

[DelayRepay]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea that if you amass lots of debt you should go onto prepayment to encourage you to manage usage properly. What I do think is that the law should require the cost for pre-payment to be at worst exactly the same as post-payment.

A long time ago, I lived in a house with pre-payment meters. It was rented and they were there when I moved in. Although I wasn't hard up, it was a real pain remembering to top them up.

At the same time, I worked in a supermarket that was open 24 hours, which was a rarity in those days. We regularly got people arriving in the middle of the night wanting to buy electricity credit. Unfortunately we did not offer that service, and although we made enquiries we did not know of any other shops open overnight that could help. Sometimes it was clear they were desperate, but mostly they just seemed disorganised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A long time ago, I lived in a house with pre-payment meters. It was rented and they were there when I moved in. Although I wasn't hard up, it was a real pain remembering to top them up.

At the same time, I worked in a supermarket that was open 24 hours, which was a rarity in those days. We regularly got people arriving in the middle of the night wanting to buy electricity credit. Unfortunately we did not offer that service, and although we made enquiries we did not know of any other shops open overnight that could help. Sometimes it was clear they were desperate, but mostly they just seemed disorganised.

Of course modern ones can be topped up from your phone, so that becomes less of an issue (though it is for some, the ones being disorganised are likely to be younger and thus more likely smartphone users).

To be fair, though, the fridge and freezer would be fine overnight provided you didn't open them. You get night-time power cuts in some areas quite a lot and the only way people notice is if the microwave clock resets. I don't now have any device in the house that would alert me to it unless the light from the Echo Dot woke me up as it restarted.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Realistically, unless you consider the idea of them possibly being used in future to enforce individual disconnection to be significantly more concerning than the reality of vaguely-selective disconnection already being possible now, there isn't any big reason to avoid them anymore. Though obviously the disruption of having the exchange done, though usually short, is still greater than just doing nothing.

Thanks, that's kinda what I suspected. Part of my reasoning a few years ago when I was reluctant to install one was, give it a few years for the companies to iron out any problems (including any security issues) in this then very new technology. I would assume they now have had time to do that.

 

[Lucan]

you can see that I am interested in the actual power drawn at any given time. Now take the devices that I specifically mentioned:
washing machine/tumble dryer - rating label say 230v 2.2kW
actual power drawn:
starting cycle, filling with water, draining - about 50-100W .... [etc etc etc]

You obviously have time on your hands if you like spending it watching the step-by-step power consumption of your washing machine. If you read what I said, it was not to bother. The clothes need washing anyway. You can watch the smart meter until you are blue in the face but it won't make any difference to how much electricity it uses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You obviously have time on your hands if you like spending it watching the step-by-step power consumption of your washing machine. If you read what I said, it was not to bother. The clothes need washing anyway. You can watch the smart meter until you are blue in the face but it won't make any difference to how much electricity it uses.

The clothes need washing, but if you realised it cost you £2 to run it pretty much regardless of load and you often do half loads, you're maybe more likely to do fewer full loads instead of more half loads. That's the idea.

Or (extending into the future) if it was cheaper to do it at 8pm than at 6pm, you'd do it at 8pm.

Or maybe you'll see that your tumble drier costs an extra £2 a go (again random figure) you might go "oh, perhaps I should line dry then, it's a hot day" rather than just pressing "wash and dry" by default.

Or maybe you'll see that a 20 degree wash does as well with a modern detergent as a 40 degree wash, and save that way?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'd be pretty surprised if the average smackhead was hacking smart meters to ascertain it someone wasn't the house before breaking in.
It's not even an accurate method, I could be sat at home using little electricity or out with the washing machine and tumble dryer on.

I'd agree, that's fairly implausible.

I would have thought a more plausible theoretical security concern would be something like, a group hacking into lots of smart meters and - say - disabling them, cutting off your electricity supply. They might be motivated to do that, for example as a ransomware attempt to try to extort payment for restoring the supply. I have no idea how technologically plausible that would be though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd agree, that's fairly implausible.

I would have thought a more plausible theoretical security concern would be something like, a group that hacking into lots of smart meters and - say - disabling them, cutting off your electricity supply. They might be motivated to do that, for example as a ransomware attempt to try to extort payment for restoring the supply. I have no idea how technologically plausible that would be though.

A DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack is possible, but that could be carried out on the grid, a substation or a power station too, so it's again a non-issue.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack is possible, but that could be carried out on the grid, a substation or a power station too, so it's again a non-issue.

I wouldn't say entirely a non-issue. Household smart meters might an additional means by which a DDOS attack could be carried out. They also very definitely represent single points of failure: If your smart meter gets taken out, there's no backup. I don't know to what extent the wider grid etc. has single points of failure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't say entirely a non-issue. Household smart meters might an additional means by which a DDOS attack could be carried out. They also very definitely represent single points of failure: If your smart meter gets taken out, there's no backup. I don't know to what extent the wider grid etc. has single points of failure.

There increasingly is a backup due to the number of things that contain batteries. I might lose the lights but I'd still be able to post on here and watch TV!

This is, again, headed into the far fetched and rare "what ifs" of the e-ticket threads.

 

[tomuk]

I wouldn't say entirely a non-issue. Household smart meters might an additional means by which a DDOS attack could be carried out. They also very definitely represent single points of failure: If your smart meter gets taken out, there's no backup. I don't know to what extent the wider grid etc. has single points of failure.

If that happened to me I'd bypass the meter.

 

[D821]

I wouldn't say entirely a non-issue. Household smart meters might an additional means by which a DDOS attack could be carried out. They also very definitely represent single points of failure: If your smart meter gets taken out, there's no backup. I don't know to what extent the wider grid etc. has single points of failure.

That's an interesting point, though I'd like to think that DDOSing a smart meter wouldn't affect the supply. A quick google of this raises a few documents which I'll read through tomorrow.

 

[MikeWM]

A DDOS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack is possible, but that could be carried out on the grid, a substation or a power station too, so it's again a non-issue.

One could ask why these vital bits of national infrastructure are on the same public internet as everything else. I do think it is crazy though - these things don't need to be on the internet, and certainly not be reliant on the internet in order to continue working.

I suppose this is rather off-topic though, so I'll leave it there!

 

[tomuk]

One could ask why these vital bits of national infrastructure are on the same public internet as everything else. I do think it is crazy though - these things don't need to be on the internet, and certainly not be reliant on the internet in order to continue working.

I suppose this is rather off-topic though, so I'll leave it there!

They aren't on the public internet and aren't reliant on the internet to continue working.

 

[MikeWM]

They aren't on the public internet and aren't reliant on the internet to continue working.

Well, I'd certainly hope their internal networks were air-gapped, but I'm not at all convinced they are. I'm quite happy to be pleasantly surprised though.

 

[Scotrail12]

I've had 3 texts in the past week asking me to buy a smart meter.

Around the end of May, there was a phase of them calling me several times a week to get one and it was outright intrusive. I ended it by deliberately answering it on a loud rush hour train. They hung up and never called back.

 

[tomuk]

I've had 3 texts in the past week asking me to buy a smart meter.

Around the end of May, there was a phase of them calling me several times a week to get one and it was outright intrusive. I ended it by deliberately answering it on a loud rush hour train. They hung up and never called back.

You don't 'buy' a smart meter you get one, probably two, fitted for free.

Why don't you want one? On balance the current ones are fine.

 

[GB]

The clothes need washing, but if you realised it cost you £2 to run it pretty much regardless of load and you often do half loads, you're maybe more likely to do fewer full loads instead of more half loads. That's the idea.

Or (extending into the future) if it was cheaper to do it at 8pm than at 6pm, you'd do it at 8pm.

Or maybe you'll see that your tumble drier costs an extra £2 a go (again random figure) you might go "oh, perhaps I should line dry then, it's a hot day" rather than just pressing "wash and dry" by default.

Or maybe you'll see that a 20 degree wash does as well with a modern detergent as a 40 degree wash, and save that way?

Don't think you need a smart meter to realise most of that already.

 

[DelayRepay]

Don't think you need a smart meter to realise most of that already.

You don't need one, no. But my energy usage has reduced since I got one. This is because it makes it more obvious how much things are costing and makes one think a bit more before using high power devices. These aren't huge savings but they are welcome.

I don't need a smart meter. I coped for years without one. But having one, there are some (admittedly relatively minor) benefits and all of the problems described by sceptics above have not affected me at all.

 

[AM9]

You obviously have time on your hands if you like spending it watching the step-by-step power consumption of your washing machine. If you read what I said, it was not to bother. The clothes need washing anyway. You can watch the smart meter until you are blue in the face but it won't make any difference to how much electricity it uses.

You clearly don't understand how a smart meter display can help making simple decisions on power use when there are variables all working together.
There's no watching step-by-step' changes, just glancing at times and getting an overall picture of optimum times to use certain devices.
The smart meter itself uses minimal power, all of which is drawn before the metering point. Only the portable display consumes paid-for energy and that is immeasurable in terms of overall domestic consumption.
In terms of 'not bothering', the saving I have personally made are not insignificant, but more importantly, by choosing to use energy at times when supply is more plentiful, i.e. during daytime when solar generation is highest, I am benefitting other users, more than the indiscriminate power draw that I and other did before I had the necessary information.

 

[DelayRepay]

In terms of 'not bothering', the saving I have personally made are not insignificant, but more importantly, by choosing to use energy at times when supply is more plentiful, i.e. during daytime when solar generation is highest, I am benefitting other users, more than the indiscriminate power draw that I and other did before I had the necessary information.

It's the same here. I don't spend all day watching the meter but I have changed my behaviour since I got it. I could have made these changes without it if I spent time studying the energy consumption of each appliance, but I did not because I had better things to do with my time. The smart meter makes it easy to notice when power consumption is high and work out which appliance is causing it.

How do you know when energy supplies are more plentiful, @AM9? I'd prefer to use hungry appliances at times when the energy is less likely to be from burning fossil fuels. Or were you talking about energy you generate through solar panels, which I don't have?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, I'd certainly hope their internal networks were air-gapped, but I'm not at all convinced they are. I'm quite happy to be pleasantly surprised though.

They aren't reliant on anything to keep going - if the smart aspect fails it just becomes a normal meter.

I did however believe they contained a SIM card which would mean sending via the Internet, even if it is an encrypted VPN.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's the same here. I don't spend all day watching the meter but I have changed my behaviour since I got it. I could have made these changes without it if I spent time studying the energy consumption of each appliance, but I did not because I had better things to do with my time. The smart meter makes it easy to notice when power consumption is high and work out which appliance is causing it.

How do you know when energy supplies are more plentiful, @AM9? I'd prefer to use hungry appliances at times when the energy is less likely to be from burning fossil fuels. Or were you talking about energy you generate through solar panels, which I don't have?

If you live in the Western Power Distribution area, you can use their Carbontracer website to look up the mix of electricity by generation source you're consuming, have consumed or are predicted to consume at a given time.

 

[D365]

The electric company I am with is the one that is/was based in Cathcart, Glasgow and was took over by a Spanish firm.

Not sure if anybody else had made the point (I haven’t read the whole thread), but if this is ScottishPower, I’m fed up to the back teeth with them. During my student days in an Economy 7 flat, they were pestering me to install a smart meter. The only way I got them to stop was by calling and categorically telling them that I wouldn’t be having a smart meter at my student property.

I also had endless issues with trying to set up an online account which lead to me never having access to my ”paperless bills”.