Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Bletchleyite]

Look at some of the Scottish Citylink services. For example Fort William to Glasgow-4 trains/day compared to 9 coaches. Train journey time 3hour 48 plus, coach 3 hour 4 plus. Coach also cheaper

The tragedy with those (and TrawsCymru) is that they are set up to compete with a low frequency train service, not complement it. The outcome is that the car wins.

 

[InkyScrolls]

In this context, it would need to be, in no particular order:

1. Operated using vehicles in a very good condition with a high standard of seating, air conditioned and double glazed
2. Be shown in the rail timetable and timed to co-ordinate with rail connections
3. Serve connecting railway stations directly
4. Be included within railway connection protection and through ticketing, including in the middle of a journey
5. Have GPS tracking for live passenger information
6. Accept card payment
7. Have on-board next stop and connections information
8. Have a professional, courteous driver wearing uniform to give a quality impression
9. Ideally, carry two bicycles, but even if not there must be plenty of luggage rack space and space for one wheelchair plus one unfolded pushchair, with the wheelchair space managed via the railway's assistance booking systems
10. Be funded by the railway budget and guaranteed, not by a local authority so it'll disappear quickly on the quiet when money gets tight

Any more for any more? If you want to know what sort of bus I mean, go to Switzerland and ride some Postautos.

I don't think there's a single UK bus route that meets all of these

And you really believe that replacing the railway, which already does all of that, with a bus - forcing extra changes - is the better way round?

Absurd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you really believe that replacing the railway, which already does all of that, with a bus - forcing extra changes - is the better way round?

Absurd.

More frequent for less money.

 

[XAM2175]

Yes, because it's a figment of your imagination.

Having used such services in Switzerland, they're a hell of a lot more real than your usage surveys

The tragedy with those (and TrawsCymru) is that they are set up to compete with a low frequency train service, not complement it. The outcome is that the car wins.

Exactly.

 

[Grumpy]

The tragedy with those (and TrawsCymru) is that they are set up to compete with a low frequency train service, not complement it. The outcome is that the car wins.

Perhaps the tragedy is that the railway infrastructure is so outmoded that it would be impossible to provide any form of competitive service without spending mega millions to provide new routes.

Meanwhile money continues to be thrown at these poor services when the road service is better.

The position is even worse on Sundays with only 3 trains/day with the first from both Oban and Fort William not arriving in Glasgow until 15.26.

I must be one of the few not impressed with Scotrail management. Earlier this year I was in Oban on a Sunday and happened to be near the station when the 12.11 was about to depart. There was a 2 car 156 in the platform. Engines running and yellow door lights lit. No doubt the crew were warm and cosy. The prospective passengers however weren’t being allowed onto the platforms as the gate was shut. So they had to stand there in the pouring rain, there being no cover on the platform and waiting areas. Perhaps Scotrail management don’t know it rains in Argyll and Bute. Meanwhile money is spent on gimmicks like providing cycle carriages

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the tragedy is that the railway infrastructure is so outmoded that it would be impossible to provide any form of competitive service without spending mega millions to provide new routes.

No, it's simply that public transport is better together against the car, and every country that has high usage knows that full well.

 

[yorksrob]

Having used such services in Switzerland, they're a hell of a lot more real than your usage surveys


Exactly.

Switzerland might as well be Pluto, for all the likelihood of such services happening here. And even then, getting off the train at Skipton then pootling around country lanes on a bus to Lancaster for hours wouldn't be an improvement on the train, however frequent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Switzerland might as well be Pluto, for all the likelihood of such services happening here.

Unfortunately you are probably right, and I think it's tragic.

And even then, getting off the train at Skipton then pootling around country lanes on a bus to Lancaster for hours wouldn't be an improvement on the train, however frequent.

If the railway closed, most Leeds-Lancaster traffic (in so much as there is that much of it) would be via Preston, which has a connection available hourly. The bus would be for local traffic (and serve it rather better than the railway does now).

 

[yorksrob]

Unfortunately you are probably right, and I think it's tragic.



If the railway closed, most Leeds-Lancaster traffic (in so much as there is that much of it) would be via Preston, which has a connection available hourly. The bus would be for local traffic (and serve it rather better than the railway does now).

Copy Pit has its own population to look after. Like I've said, I've had plenty of opportunity to try the alternative through routes to Lancaster and they're all worse for various reasons.

 

[InkyScrolls]

If the railway closed, most Leeds-Lancaster traffic (in so much as there is that much of it) would be via Preston, which has a connection available hourly. The bus would be for local traffic (and serve it rather better than the railway does now).

I'm sure that would be very convenient for those living in Skipton, Keighley, etc., who would then have an extra 30 to 40 mins added just to get to Leeds, let alone the slower journey from there to Lancaster (20 mins longer) - not including changeover time.

Your imaginary bus service would only be beneficial if it were in addition to, not instead of, the existing railway line, and to suggest anything else is lunacy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure that would be very convenient for those living in Skipton, Keighley, etc., who would then have an extra 30 to 40 mins added just to get to Leeds

Wha? Who's proposing closing the Leeds suburbans? I'm certainly not. I'm suggesting that the line from Hellifield to Carnforth could be replaced by a quality bus service (possibly, for convenience, starting back at Skipton as Hellifield, nice though it is, isn't very big). I'm not even proposing closing the S&C (though I know a couple of our resident Serpells probably are).

let alone the slower journey from there to Lancaster (20 mins longer) - not including changeover time.

How much demand is there actually from Skipton and Keighley (specifically, not Leeds) to Lancaster?

 

[Bantamzen]

If the railway closed, most Leeds-Lancaster traffic (in so much as there is that much of it) would be via Preston, which has a connection available hourly. The bus would be for local traffic (and serve it rather better than the railway does now).

There's already a bus, the 581 Lancaster - Skipton. Is there really going to be a market for a "quality bus service", or would the area just lose capacity?

 

[yorksrob]

There's already a bus, the 581 Lancaster - Skipton. Is there really going to be a market for a "quality bus service", or would the area just lose capacity?

There you have it. If the bus was such a great alternative, everyone would already be on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There you have it. If the bus was such a great alternative, everyone would already be on it.

Do we know what its ridership is like?

 

[yorksrob]

Do we know what its ridership is like?

It could well be excellent, but it makes no difference because plenty of people still choose the train.

 

[Bantamzen]

Do we know what its ridership is like?

I've never used it, or for that matter even seen it so I couldn't say. But one look at those timings and I'd rather bounce along to Lancaster on a 142 for just over an hour than sit for at least 2.5 hours on a regular bus....

 

[yorksrob]

It could, afterall just be a case of buses doing what they're generally good at. Supporting short hops between local suburbs and settlements.

That doesn't mean that they will be suitable for longer rural journeys.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Wha? Who's proposing closing the Leeds suburbans? I'm certainly not. I'm suggesting that the line from Hellifield to Carnforth could be replaced by a quality bus service (possibly, for convenience, starting back at Skipton as Hellifield, nice though it is, isn't very big). I'm not even proposing closing the S&C (though I know a couple of our resident Serpells probably are).

I was referring to the added train journey, plus change, residents of the northern end of the Airedale Line would have if they had to travel via Leeds to get to Lancaster, which is a ridiculous suggestion when a perfectly good direct route already exists.

 

[Starmill]

It could, afterall just be a case of buses doing what they're generally good at. Supporting short hops between local suburbs and settlements.

That doesn't mean that they will be suitable for longer rural journeys.

Buses are used for much more than that around the country and the world though.

 

[lachlan]

In response to the posts about Scoail,

The West Highland railway serves places like Corrour which would not be practical to serve by bus. Same for the Far North lines which some folks here want to close. I also maintain that even an excellent bus isnt as comfy as a class 158 and certainly wouldn't be as comfy as a properly air conditioned train.

 

[Starmill]

In response to the posts about Scoail,

The West Highland railway serves places like Corrour which would not be practical to serve by bus. Same for the Far North lines which some folks here want to close. I also maintain that even an excellent bus isnt as comfy as a class 158 and certainly wouldn't be as comfy as a properly air conditioned train.

Yes, but a bus wouldn't be needed to serve Corrour because there's nothing there to serve.

 

[lachlan]

Yes, but a bus wouldn't be needed to serve Corrour because there's nothing there to serve.

There's a hostel, restaurant, B&B, and good hillwalks. I went there just recently and it really feels special to have such an otherwise remote location easily reachable by public transport. Closing rural lines will result in these places only being accessible by car, taking away travel opportunities from disabled people like myself

 

[Starmill]

There's a hostel, restaurant, B&B, and good hillwalks. I went there just recently and it really feels special to have such an otherwise remote location easily reachable by public transport. Closing rural lines will result in these places only being accessible by car, taking away travel opportunities from disabled people like myself

Those things are there because there's a train service, which is a near-unique situation. The railway industry exists because it serves centres of major demand, not the other way around.

 

[RT4038]

There's a hostel, restaurant, B&B, and good hillwalks. I went there just recently and it really feels special to have such an otherwise remote location easily reachable by public transport. Closing rural lines will result in these places only being accessible by car, taking away travel opportunities from disabled people like myself

As with everything else, there is a cost benefit analysis to be done. There are no doubt lots of similar places without public transport at all. It probably would be more cost effective to serve five of those by bus (giving far greater choice of accessibility) than paying for Corrour to be rail served.

Anyway, once the track has been removed, the rail replacement minibus from Pitlochry to Rannoch (three times per week) could run up along the trackbed to Corrour (on Thursdays)

 

[lachlan]

As with everything else, there is a cost benefit analysis to be done. There are no doubt lots of similar places without public transport at all. It probably would be more cost effective to serve five of those by bus (giving far greater choice of accessibility) than paying for Corrour to be rail served.

Anyway, once the track has been removed, the rail replacement minibus from Pitlochry to Rannoch (three times per week) could run up along the trackbed to Corrour (on Thursdays)

I don't disagree, but this assumes the money we have to spend on public transport is a set amount when in reality it depends on how much we are willing to allocate to it and I feel we should be increasing how much we spend on public transport. Also, those buses would be withdrawn in the blink of an eye.

 

[Ken H]

I don't disagree, but this assumes the money we have to spend on public transport is a set amount when in reality it depends on how much we are willing to allocate to it and I feel we should be increasing how much we spend on public transport. Also, those buses would be withdrawn in the blink of an eye.

This is the nub of the problem. Withdrawing a rail service is a major administrative (and probably expensive) effort. Bus services go at the drop of a hat. just look at this thread in the buses and coached section.

We also need to stop buses and trains being seen as in competition. They should compliment each other. Like they did when the railways were heavily involved in buses prior to rail nationalisation. But buses and trains were stupidly split by the British Transport commission.

 

[Ken H]

I've never used it, or for that matter even seen it so I couldn't say. But one look at those timings and I'd rather bounce along to Lancaster on a 142 for just over an hour than sit for at least 2.5 hours on a regular bus....

It has an odd timetable. I think all the buses go back to Morecambe each night - I dont think Kirkby Lonsdale have any outstations. (Pennine/Ribble had garages at Skipton, Gargrave, Settle, Ingleton and Lancaster) So the Eastern end is badly served early mornings The first bus from Settle is 0755 arr Skipton 0835 which is a bit late. But the first bus westbound is the same bus departing 0850 arr Settle 0929. Useless for commuting into Settle from the east. Link to Skipton-Lancaster bus timetable here - https://klch.co.uk/bus-services/timetable-580-581-582-75-the-craven-connection
Remember, the 580 Skipton - Settle section is commercial. 581 Settle - Kirkby Lonsdale is subsidised by North Yorks CC, and 81,82 Kirkby Lonsdale - Lancaster by Lancs CC
In view of the fact that Skipton - Settle is commercial, i would expect KLCH* would be well grumpy if the railway were to operate a competing bus service
*Kirkby Lonsdale Coach hire

 

[RT4038]

It has an odd timetable. I think all the buses go back to Morecambe each night - I dont think Kirkby Lonsdale have any outstations. (Pennine/Ribble had garages at Skipton, Gargrave, Settle, Ingleton and Lancaster) So the Eastern end is badly served early mornings The first bus from Settle is 0755 arr Skipton 0835 which is a bit late. But the first bus westbound is the same bus departing 0850 arr Settle 0929. Useless for commuting into Settle from the east. Link to Skipton-Lancaster bus timetable here - https://klch.co.uk/bus-services/timetable-580-581-582-75-the-craven-connection
Remember, the 580 Skipton - Settle section is commercial. 581 Settle - Kirkby Lonsdale is subsidised by North Yorks CC, and 81,82 Kirkby Lonsdale - Lancaster by Lancs CC
In view of the fact that Skipton - Settle is commercial, i would expect KLCH* would be well grumpy if the railway were to operate a competing bus service
*Kirkby Lonsdale Coach hire

And exactly how many people would be commuting into Settle of a morning????

 

[Ken H]

And exactly how many people would be commuting into Settle of a morning????

I know quite a few people who work in Settle and live in Hellifield and Long Preston.

 

[RT4038]

I know quite a few people who work in Settle and live in Hellifield and Long Preston.

But how many would travel on a bus if there was one? 3? 5? Bearing in mind that this would be a peak time bus, I suggest it would need to be nearing 20 to be over halfway worthwhile.