"Smart" meters spamming from electric supplier

[swt_passenger]

This is the first I've heard of the Magna Carta saying anything about a right not to have one's electricity meter replaced!

Might be the Magnetic Carta if it’s to do with electricity…

 

[Bletchleyite]

My lord - this has to be the most ridiculous post I’ve ever read on this forum, and that is really saying something!

A sob story about PTSD and angina and asserting your “rights” under the Magna Carta in response to some text messages about a smart meter? Sometimes you wonder whether universal suffrage was a good thing!

This "Magna Carta" rubbish was also pushed by anti-vaxxers, normally alongside wording like "I DO NOT CONSENT". It's a load of tripe wherever it is used.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Smart meters requirement...1 pen, 1 piece of paper, record readings. Thereafter, some basic maths ( use of a calculator is permitted as " all workings need not be shown ") as this ain't an exam ...and usage / cost appear as if by magic !

Why waste paper and ink, just take a photo of your meter on your phone. I do every month just so I have a record eg when the rates went up significantly on 1 April I could prove what my actual readings were and that I hadn't inflated them to save money. Similar if you change suppliers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why waste paper and ink, just take a photo of your meter on your phone. I do every month just so I have a record eg when the rates went up significantly on 1 April I could prove what my actual readings were and that I hadn't inflated them to save money. Similar if you change suppliers.

Or just have a smart meter, which can be installed at no cost to you, and it'll all be done for you!

Some people really do bite their noses off to spite their face.

It's not a conspiracy. It just helps you (no estimated bills) while helping them (fewer reading staff to pay to go round reading them).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Or just have a smart meter, which can be installed at no cost to you, and it'll all be done for you!

Some people really do bite their noses off to spite their face.

It's not a conspiracy. It just helps you (no estimated bills) while helping them (fewer reading staff to pay to go round reading them).

I have a friend who worked as an engineer for BT but now long retired. When a customer annoyed him, he remotely increased their usage, thus costing them money without them ever knowing. Is that the 'gain rate' or am I confusing two tales?

As an aside, continuing to do something which I've been doing for around 30 years is hardly biting off my nose!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a friend who worked as an engineer for BT but now long retired. When a customer annoyed him, he remotely increased their usage, thus costing them money without them ever knowing. Is that the 'gain rate' or am I confusing two tales?

I believe the word for that is "employee fraud" and that member of staff needs to be summarily dismissed.

 

[AM9]

You can find that out simply by looking at the appliance specifications, and usually on a plate on the back. But don't bother, just bear in mind that these things simply use a lot of electricity. So what will you do? Stop washing your clothes and dishes? Turn off your fridge and let things rot?

Thats absolute rubbish! True most domestic appliances have a rating plate. What does that have to say, - voltage range, maximum power consumed (or current drawn), that's all the information that the product manufacturer is required to state. OK so there's the 2021 appliance information regulations that require the manufacturer to declare the energy efficiency of their product (i.e. is it a 'D', 'A' or 'A+' etc. product) - that is designed to inform a buyer as to the product's energy efficiency.
If you read what I actually wrote, (I'll repeat it here to make it easier for you: "I've also been able to observe the demand that automatic appliances make, e.g. washing machine/tumble dryer, dishwasher and refrigeration,") you can see that I am interested in the actual power drawn at any given time. Now take the devices that I specifically mentioned:
washing machine/tumble dryer - rating label say 230v 2.2kW
actual power drawn:

starting cycle, filling with water, draining - about 50-100W (uses water solenoid(s) and for draining water pump)​

heating water, variable power on elements from 500W to 2kW, controlled by programmer and thermostat​

drum motor, variable power, from tumble speed to 1400rpm, power drawn from 60W to 250W​

dryer heating, variable power and thermostat - up to 2kW​

I could cover the others, they are all automated to some degree, out of direct control of the user so the only way to tell is to have an instantaneous reading power meter, which the smart meter does (it actually samples about every 8 seconds but in the big scheme of things that is fine). However what it does best is indicate whether there is a net import of power or an export. That's very useful when making a decision to start the washing machine or dishwasher because if there is over 2.5kW being exported, then the whole cycle can be run free of charge.
So between my smart meter display and my phone app that gives the total power from the inverter, I can deduce how best to make savings on my energy bills. So far this year I have used about 15% less gas and 30-40% less electricity than at the same point last year. That effectively means that I should have little or no increase in energy costs from the rate rise in October 2021.
Smart meters were introduced 1) so that suppliers can save on meter reading costs, 2) so that the consumer has no excuses for being surprised when they find out that their consumption has risen and 3) so that time variable tariffs can be applied remotely, this hasn't been cited as a reson yet but it sure will when the supply gets tight.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I believe the word for that is "employee fraud" and that member of staff needs to be summarily dismissed.

The employee didn't benefit, BT did.

So professional services companies never get to the end of the month, find they are a bit light on income and add 15 minutes to all of their retained clients accounts?

 

[Ediswan]

"I've also been able to observe the demand that automatic appliances make, e.g. washing machine/tumble dryer, dishwasher and refrigeration,"

How do you allow for automated variable loads, such as refrigeration, which may turn on or off (thus affecting the smart meter reading) while you are trying to measure the consumption of a specific device ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The employee didn't benefit, BT did.

So professional services companies never get to the end of the month, find they are a bit light on income and add 15 minutes to all of their retained clients accounts?

I would hope the clients are doing the due diligence to ensure that they don't. I've certainly never done it and nor would I - it is fraud, pure and simple, a clear criminal matter.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

3) so that time variable tariffs can be applied remotely, this hasn't been cited as a reson yet but it sure will when the supply gets tight.

There is a consultation on surge pricing running at the moment (or ran recently). Surge pricing being the trendy name for every varying tariffs.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I haven't seen a meter reader for years. Where I live now they have not come because of Covid, and where I lived before I had only submitted my own readings (to SWEB) since about 2014 (apart from the final reading befofe I moved out).


.

I send a meter reading to my supplier monthly....guarentee that a chap will call by to read the meter within a few days. I suppose the Meter Reading firms receive income from each meter reading and my supplier doesn't mind paying up even though my readings are generally used for the bill.

 

[GusB]

Your meter should be identified on your invoices, so this should be an easy check.

My concern about smart meters is that there is an assumed ability that they can turn off individual customers rather than a whole area when there is insufficient power generation. Is there any truth in this or is it an urban myth?

I did switch to a water meter since it was cheaper than the rateable value based charges. It was possible to make a saving on using water smart meters, but there is no way of making savings by switching to a smart gas or electricity meeting whatever the adverts say (can we complain to the Advertising Stanards Authority?) other than watching the numbers on the meter and deciding not to have a cup of tea/ have a bath/ do the washing etc.

The OP indicated that it was a prepay tariff, so there wouldn't necessarily be an invoice. I'm not sure if prepay customers are supposed to receive an annual statement, either.

 

[tomuk]

One advantage of smart prepay meters is you can pay by app rather than having to go out and get the key\card charged up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One advantage of smart prepay meters is you can pay by app rather than having to go out and get the key\card charged up.

There's a decent argument to say everyone should be required to have a smart pre-pay meter, with a maximum deposit of maybe a tenner at a time. If you had to keep putting money on it you'd have a far greater idea in your mind about its use and would be more motivated to reduce it.

 

[Busaholic]

Of course any new meters fitted now are going to be smart meters. They just may not have the smart functionality enabled at the point of installation. So best hope your current one doesn't fail as otherwise you'll be getting one anyway!

It ain't necessarily so! I had to have a meter replaced because it stopped working(!) and had a very combative engineer who dismissed my protestations against having a smart meter, but had to admit defeat in the end because my property was unsuitable on two grounds, advanced age and (more to the point from the electricity company's viewpoint) an inability to pick up the necessary signals! The replacement non-smart meter I had been promised was then produced from the back of his van and installed. Exit one rather chastened engineer, though he became progressively more civil as he realised I'd had a point all along, and he knew it.

 

[GB]

I have a friend who worked as an engineer for BT but now long retired. When a customer annoyed him, he remotely increased their usage, thus costing them money without them ever knowing. Is that the 'gain rate' or am I confusing two tales?

Sounds like a made up story from your friend to be honest.

 

[Irascible]

I don't get the negativity. It's a meter; it measures your usage. If your usage doesn't change neither will (or should) your readings and bills. It's of benefit to the supplier middlemen as they don't have to employ (as many) meter readers, so it's a cost saving. I see no negatives here.

I saw the negativity first hand when the meter for upstairs lost it's network, crashed, and then we couldn't get it into a backup mode & they had no power until someone came out to fix it. I've no doubt they'll get more reliable and probably are more reliable now, but I'm not in a rush to get one yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I saw the negativity first hand when the meter for upstairs lost it's network, crashed, and then we couldn't get it into a backup mode & they had no power until someone came out to fix it. I've no doubt they'll get more reliable and probably are more reliable now, but I'm not in a rush to get one yet.

Good lord. This is getting like the number of obscure smartphone failures that seem to plague denizens of this Forum but hardly anyone else.

I've got one, it has never done anything bad, it means I don't get estimated bills without having to keep sending readings in myself. If you're offered one, I recommend you take it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't get the negativity. It's a meter; it measures your usage. If your usage doesn't change neither will (or should) your readings and bills. It's of benefit to the supplier middlemen as they don't have to employ (as many) meter readers, so it's a cost saving. I see no negatives here.

There is the cost of the 'Smart Meter Company' sitting between the customer and their supplier. Some may suggest that an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy (with profit margin) unless suppliers reduce their billing departments by a similar cost. The Smart Meter Company is yet another levy / component identifiable on bills.

As my meter states 'property of the Midlands Electricity Board' on it, I don't understand why they (successor in title obviously) simply didn't have a rolling programme to replace dumb meters with smart, instead of pretending you have a choice!

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is the cost of the 'Smart Meter Company' sitting between the customer and their supplier. Some may suggest that an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy (with profit margin) unless suppliers reduce their billing departments by a similar cost.

Of course it saves billing departments money - quite a lot of it in fact. They no longer have to go round reading them.

 

[AM9]

Of course it saves billing departments money - quite a lot of it in fact. They no longer have to go round reading them.

... and they can get actual figures a lot quicker rather than suffering those who either just take ages to respond, or when there's a price rise imminent (quite frequent these days) stops those who 'game the system' by submitting higher readings.

 

[tomuk]

There is the cost of the 'Smart Meter Company' sitting between the customer and their supplier. Some may suggest that an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy (with profit margin) unless suppliers reduce their billing departments by a similar cost. The Smart Meter Company is yet another levy / component identifiable on bills.

As my meter states 'property of the Midlands Electricity Board' on it, I don't understand why they (successor in title obviously) simply didn't have a rolling programme to replace dumb meters with smart, instead of pretending you have a choice!

It isn't a new layer of bureaucracy there has always been a MOP, DC and DA its just that those roles are appointed/provided by your supplier for domestic\non half hourly supplies for larger half hourly supplies you can choose your own.

As regards meter replacement there still is a requirement for suppliers to update meters as they age out but a bit like reading the meter this appears to have got more lax over the years. As regards having a choice over smart meters I don't understand the rational on a philosophical level but in reality as I said the implementation has been poor so by waiting I think I have benefitted.

 

[DelayRepay]

The value is knowing *when* you're using energy and how much. That would allow someone to build up a profile of when you're usually in, when you're usually out, when you're asleep, when you eat your meals, etc. Very helpful to a potential burglar, to give a trivial example.

Each to their own. I think if someone wanted to build up a pattern of when I was home, the could easily do it by just looking at my house and seeing when the car is there, when the lights are on etc.

Perhaps other people have issues with this for some reason, but I don't personally have an issue with the 1 minute it takes to read my meters and the 2 minutes it takes to submit them on the website, 4 times a year. Compared to most things in the modern world, 12 minutes a year isn't particularly onerous to me. I don't have a problem that needs 'solving' with a 'smart' meter.

I didn't have an issue reading my meters. But now I don't have to bother. I wouldn't have proactively asked for a smart meter, but it was offered so I accepted.

Am I the only one who sees no issue at all with the idea of variable tariffs? No different from peak/off peak train tickets, nor indeed from the existing Economy 7/10.

And yes, it'd be done that way round, with smart meter users offered Advance-like discounts at certain times, while "refuseniks" would be maximum price all day.

No problem here. I'd be happy to sign up for one. I would use it to my advantage by doing the hoovering, washing etc at times when prices are lower.

 

[XAM2175]

Of course any new meters fitted now are going to be smart meters. They just may not have the smart functionality enabled at the point of installation. So best hope your current one doesn't fail as otherwise you'll be getting one anyway!

It ain't necessarily so! I had to have a meter replaced because it stopped working(!) and had a very combative engineer who dismissed my protestations against having a smart meter, but had to admit defeat in the end because my property was unsuitable on two grounds, advanced age and (more to the point from the electricity company's viewpoint) an inability to pick up the necessary signals! The replacement non-smart meter I had been promised was then produced from the back of his van and installed. Exit one rather chastened engineer, though he became progressively more civil as he realised I'd had a point all along, and he knew it.

All meters have finite lifetimes, governed usually by the metrology certification which is legally limited to a period of either 10 or 20 years depending on the type of mechanism the meter uses. As a rule, suppliers will now exchange meters that have expired certificates, or that have failed or been damaged, with smart meters, because they can count the exchange as progress towards the government's targets.

However, because smart meters that have been installed but not commissioned (that is, activated as an actual smart meter) do not count towards these targets, many suppliers will fit legacy meters that have been removed in good condition from other premises in premises where a smart meter is not expected to work. Other suppliers will just install a smart meter anyway and make a note in their CRM systems to attempt commissioning if circumstances change in the future.

Funnily enough, I am starting to wonder whether enough time has passed for any security risks etc. to be ironed out and whether - especially now electricity is so much more expensive - it would be worth having one. At the risk of hijacking the thread, does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Realistically, unless you consider the idea of them possibly being used in future to enforce individual disconnection to be significantly more concerning than the reality of vaguely-selective disconnection already being possible now, there isn't any big reason to avoid them anymore. Though obviously the disruption of having the exchange done, though usually short, is still greater than just doing nothing.

I imagine that at some point the government will mandate smart meters. I think they'll become like water meters where over time more people will have them than not.

As my meter states 'property of the Midlands Electricity Board' on it, I don't understand why they (successor in title obviously) simply didn't have a rolling programme to replace dumb meters with smart, instead of pretending you have a choice!

It isn't a new layer of bureaucracy there has always been a MOP, DC and DA its just that those roles are appointed/provided by your supplier for domestic\non half hourly supplies for larger half hourly supplies you can choose your own.

I've long held the opinion that the smart-metering rollout in Great Britain has been a colossal farce. It should never have been treated as this sort of "please please please get a smart meter, we really beg you", and it's been vastly complicated by the structure chosen for the utilities industries at the time of deregulation which placed metering in the hands of suppliers rather than distributors.

If responsibility for metering had stayed with distributors - which is the natural division of responsibility because it's the distributor who is already taking care of physically delivering the connection to your house anyway - it would have been far easier to co-ordinate the logistics of actually exchanging the meters (especially where it's necessary to make changes to the physical position of the meter), and far easier to manage the technical aspects of developing and implementing the systems for administering them.

Once the meters had been proven in test deployments the conversion program should have worked on very simple grounds - customers are offered the ability to make an appointment for the exchange to take place, and if they choose not to take that offer, the exchange gets done at the distributor's convenience instead.

Am I the only one who sees no issue at all with the idea of variable tariffs? No different from peak/off peak train tickets, nor indeed from the existing Economy 7/10.

I'd already be on one if my supplier had been offering such a thing at the time I enquired.

 

[MikeWM]

I think if someone wanted to build up a pattern of when I was home, the could easily do it by just looking at my house and seeing when the car is there, when the lights are on etc.

They *could*, yes, but unless they were an immediate neighbour that would involve many tedious hours of sitting around near your house, and someone might well notice they were acting suspiciously.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They *could*, yes, but unless they were an immediate neighbour that would involve many tedious hours of sitting around near your house, and someone might well notice they were acting suspiciously.

If you have a smartphone (or even a dumbphone) it's probably already doing that. The Titanic hasn't just sailed, it's managed to refloat and is just docking in New York.

 

[MikeWM]

If you have a smartphone (or even a dumbphone) it's probably already doing that. The Titanic hasn't just sailed, it's managed to refloat and is just docking in New York.

In respect of whether a specific person is at home or not, yes, but electricity consumption is mostly different data from what you'd get from a phone - as above, based on that you can make reasonable deductions about such things as whether there is *anyone* in the house, when people are cooking their meals, and when people are asleep, which you can't do with phone data (assuming you're not on it every waking moment, though I guess some people are nowadays!)

Also, one isn't (yet) required to have a 'smart' phone, thank goodness. But we're talking here about cases where people may be forced to have a 'smart' meter whether they want one or not.

 

[87 027]

If responsibility for metering had stayed with distributors - which is the natural division of responsibility because it's the distributor who is already taking care of physically delivering the connection to your house anyway - it would have been far easier to co-ordinate the logistics of actually exchanging the meters (especially where it's necessary to make changes to the physical position of the meter), and far easier to manage the technical aspects of developing and implementing the systems for administering them.

That's a fair point and is how other European countries managed their rollouts. However the rationale here (given our penchant for competition in infrastructure markets) was that it is the suppliers rather than the distributors who have the relationship with the end customer and hence the ones best placed to give each household advice on saving energy which was supposed to be a compulsory element of each smart meter installation visit.

 

[DelayRepay]

In respect of whether a specific person is at home or not, yes, but electricity consumption is mostly different data from what you'd get from a phone - as above, based on that you can make reasonable deductions about such things as whether there is *anyone* in the house, when people are cooking their meals, and when people are asleep, which you can't do with phone data (assuming you're not on it every waking moment, though I guess some people are nowadays!)

My electricity usage at night will be exactly the same whether I am asleep in bed, or staying somewhere else. I turn electrical things off before going to bed, just like I do before I leave the house.

I agree that electricity usage could indicate that someone was awake in the house but I am still not convinced that someone who had the skills to hack into my electricity meter just to find out what time I go to bed.