Govia thameslink intention to prosecute letter - HELP

[SKI]

Hi,
I really need some advice please on what to do

I was travelling and used my siblings zip oyster, it was in my card holder and I was in a rush and used it, and I was caught. Inspector took my details and I got a letter with intention to prosecute and saying that they want to take me to court but want my side of the story first
How likely is it they will take it to court ?? I really can’t get a criminal record

I am planning to reply back apologising and offering to pay any fees/fines to settle it out of court. Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ? Any advice please appreciated
Do I need to contact lawyers or get in touch with them from this stage?

 

[Huntergreed]

Welcome to the forum,

We really need some more details. Which journey did you make, and what was your interaction with the inspector like?

If you could post a copy of the letter (details retracted) then that would also be really helpful for us to reply to!

We have a fares expert (@Hadders) on the forum who’ll provide some excellent advice for you on how to reply to your letter.

If you reply concisely, apologising for and recognising your mistake and offer to pay the fare plus the costs incurred in pursuing the matter, it’s quite possible you will be offered an out of court settlement (this sounds and looks like a fine but isn’t one, it’s a sum paid to the company to close the matter).

This isn’t guaranteed however and requires you engage with the process, write a satisfactory response, and generally haven’t come to the attention of the company in question previously for this kind of thing.

 

[zwk500]

Others will be along later with better advice, and I will flag this for the moderators to move to the relevant section for quicker answers, but in brief: Don't Panic.

I am planning to reply back apologising and offering to pay any fees/fines to settle it out of court. Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ? Any advice please appreciated

This is a good plan, @Hadders has some standard advice he gives at this stage:

What will happen next is that you are likely to receive a letter from the train company, or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events.

(You have already received this letter)

It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court. An administrative settlement might appear to be a fine, but technically only a court can impose a fine, and so settling a case by means of an administrative settlement means you will not get a criminal conviction.

Keep calm, and feel free to post a draft up here first if you want some further advice.

Do I need to contact lawyers or get in touch with them from this stage?

Not at this stage, although many lawyers do give an initial consultation for free. Check with Trade Unions/Insurers if any help may be available as well.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Welcome to the forum,

Might I ask - was it TfL who took your details, or another TOC in the Oyster area such as GTR/South Western Railway? You may be able to judge their willingness to settle out of court from that, as the TOCs are generally more flexible than TfL, who don’t often agree.

 

[SKI]

Thanks for your reply

It was an overground train journey. I co operated with the inspector and told him all the details he needed and answered all his questions untill he was done. I told him it was a mistake and it wasn’t my intention to avoid paying etc
This was the letter I got

If I was to get a an out of court settlement does anyone have an idea of how much it could be?
Also if it does go to court what are the options going forward
If I do, and I am prosecuted is it something that will show up on a DBS check?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum,

Might I ask - was it TfL who took your details, or another TOC in the Oyster area such as GTR/South Western Railway? You may be able to judge their willingness to settle out of court from that, as the TOCs are generally more flexible than TfL, who don’t often agree.

It was a TFL overground journey but it was a govia thameslink inspector that actually took my details.
Are govia thameslink more strict/flexible than TFL as from previous threads it seems like they are a lot more strict!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It was a TFL overground journey but it was a govia thameslink inspector that actually took my details.
Are govia thameslink more strict/flexible than TFL as from previous threads it seems like they are a lot more strict!

Well, only from reading countless similar occurrences on the forum, the general consensus seems to be that TfL are considerably less willing to settle out of court than the other TOC parent companies.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

The advice I normally give to people in similar circumstances to yourself has been posted above so I won't repeat it again.

It's probably fortunate that you were stopped by a GTR revenue inspector rather than a TfL one. GTR will generally settle out of court if you have not come to their attention before, TfL are more likely to send cases like this to court.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply to the letter in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it.

 

[SKI]

Welcome to the forum!

The advice I normally give to people in similar circumstances to yourself has been posted above so I won't repeat it again.

It's probably fortunate that you were stopped by a GTR revenue inspector rather than a TfL one. GTR will generally settle out of court if you have not come to their attention before, TfL are more likely to send cases like this to court.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply to the letter in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it.

Thanks

When do they send cases to court? Is it mainly for re-offenders etc
Because the inspector kept mentioning how using another oyster is fraud towards the end and that it’s a criminal offence etc … not sure if he stretched it more than what it was in his account

here’s my draft so far:

*details specific to incidence *
I was running late and was in a rush so I don’t miss my train, so I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet, which on that occasion was my siblings z1p card, instead of mines. I admit this was careless, silly and wrong of me to do, and I now deeply regret it as I now realise it is a form of fare evasion which is really serious, and it wasn’t what I was intending to do. I deeply apologise and I am certain nothing like this will occur again. I am really keen to settle this matter without the need for court action please. I offer to sincerely pay the outstanding fare, and the train company’s administrative and legal costs and time in dealing with this situation to settle the matter without incurring additional costs or using your valuable time.

 

[AlterEgo]

When do they send cases to court? Is it mainly for re-offenders etc
Because the inspector kept mentioning how using another oyster is fraud towards the end and that it’s a criminal offence etc … not sure if he stretched it more than what it was in his account

here’s my draft so far:

*details specific to incidence *
I was running late and was in a rush so I don’t miss my train, so I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet, which on that occasion was my siblings z1p card, instead of mines. I admit this was careless, silly and wrong of me to do, and I now deeply regret it as I now realise it is a form of fare evasion which is really serious, and it wasn’t what I was intending to do. I deeply apologise and I am certain nothing like this will occur again. I am really keen to settle this matter without the need for court action please. I offer to sincerely pay the outstanding fare, and the train company’s administrative and legal costs and time in dealing with this situation to settle the matter without incurring additional costs or using your valuable time.

You should be careful not to conflate the idea of making a mistake and fare evasion. Fare evasion is deliberate so don’t say this is what you did if it isn’t, and you did indeed make a genuine mistake.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I deeply apologise and I am certain nothing like this will occur again.

You might want to say a bit more about this: what are you planning to do to make sure that it won’t happen again? For example, one way to do it would for you not to carry your sibling’s Zip card - but I appreciate that there may be good reasons why you have to carry it for them.

 

[superkopite]

I was running late and was in a rush so I don’t miss my train, so I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet, which on that occasion was my siblings z1p card, instead of mines.

Just my 2c, but this does not sound very believable, perhaps it is just the way in which it has been worded. How much longer would it have taken to "reach" for the correct Oyster card? 2 seconds maybe?

 

[zwk500]

Just my 2c, but this does not sound very believable, perhaps it is just the way in which it has been worded. How much longer would it have taken to "reach" for the correct Oyster card? 2 seconds maybe?

If both are in identical wallets but the card itself is not visible, it's entirely believable that somebody in a rush just grabbed an Oyster card and didn't double check it was the correct one until they were halfway to the station. I've got all the way to the barriers at my destination before realising I'd picked the wrong smartcard up before.

 

[superkopite]

If both are in identical wallets but the card itself is not visible, it's entirely believable that somebody in a rush just grabbed an Oyster card and didn't double check it was the correct one until they were halfway to the station. I've got all the way to the barriers at my destination before realising I'd picked the wrong smartcard up before.

I inferred from the OP's message that both cards are in the same wallet.

I agree with you, it certainly is possible, but when you factor in that the card grabbed by "mistake" didn't belong to the OP (why did they have it to start with) and said card provided them with a substantial discount, it becomes less believable, to me at least

 

[zwk500]

I inferred from the OP's message that both cards are in the same wallet.

I agree with you, it certainly is possible, but when you factor in that the card grabbed by "mistake" didn't belong to the OP (why did they have it to start with) and said card provided them with a substantial discount, it becomes less believable, to me at least

Fair enough, although judgement at this point isn't helping the OP, and at this point we have e no reason to credibly doubt the OP.

 

[superkopite]

Fair enough, although judgement at this point isn't helping the OP, and at this point we have e no reason to credibly doubt the OP.

You are correct, judgement is of no help right now. But that is not what I am doing. I am pointing out that the reader of his letter will judge him based on the defence he presents.

Like I said, it might just be poorly worded but "so I don’t miss my train, so I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet, which on that occasion was my siblings z1p card, instead of mines" doesn't sound like cause for any mitigation or favourable treatment

 

[zwk500]

You are correct, judgement is of no help right now. But that is not what I am doing. I am pointing out that the reader of his letter will judge him based on the defence he presents.

Like I said, it might just be poorly worded but "so I don’t miss my train, so I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet, which on that occasion was my siblings z1p card, instead of mines" doesn't sound like cause for any mitigation or favourable treatment

Better wording is certainly possible to demonstrate it was a genuine mistake not a deliberate attempt. I still think its perfectly plausible to grab the wrong oyster card as your rushing for the door.

 

[Haywain]

Better wording is certainly possible to demonstrate it was a genuine mistake not a deliberate attempt. I still think its perfectly plausible to grab the wrong oyster card as your rushing for the door.

Really, I’m not convinced. The idea that multiple people have Oyster cards sitting on a shelf by the front door in identical card holders just doesn’t sound plausible to me.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Better wording is certainly possible to demonstrate it was a genuine mistake not a deliberate attempt. I still think its perfectly plausible to grab the wrong oyster card as your rushing for the door.

I'm really not convinced that this is what the OP did. From the original post:

I was travelling and used my siblings zip oyster, it was in my card holder and I was in a rush and used it, and I was caught.

And from their draft reply to GTR (post #8):

I used the closest 0yster card in reach from my wallet

Going back to the advice I gave at post #10, the important thing relating to this point is to make sure that GTR understand that it won't happen again, and the OP has taken steps to make sure that this is the case. If it is that the OP routinely carries their sibling's Zip card, then the obvious thing is to stop carrying it. If there's a good reason why they normally carry their sibling's Zip card (and there could well be - we've all got relatives who you wouldn't trust to bring their head with them except that it's tied on to their neck) then I'd add a suggestion of keeping one or other of the Zip and Oyster cards in a clearly marked wallet - stick a gold star on it or something so that it's obvious which one you're picking up.

 

[madjack]

If I was arguing that I had used my sibling's card by mistake, I would want to back it up by submitting my own card history which showed that I had paid the correct fare every other day or every other time I made the journey.

GTR will see this kind of excuse all the time and I don't think they'll waste much time on it otherwise. As others have said the experience here is that they settle out of court for the first time someone comes to their attention.

 

[SKI]

Thanks for your comments everyone
So to clarify I had the siblings Oyster card because we went out few weeks prior to incident and I was just holding on to it for him (as u do I guess for a younger sibling who’s prone to losing things) so was in my card holder, same as my other Oyster card and I used the siblings Oyster card in a rush

what else should I clarify further/ add in my letter?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2022 ==

If I was arguing that I had used my sibling's card by mistake, I would want to back it up by submitting my own card history which showed that I had paid the correct fare every other day or every other time I made the journey.

GTR will see this kind of excuse all the time and I don't think they'll waste much time on it otherwise. As others have said the experience here is that they settle out of court for the first time someone comes to their attention.

by first time someone comes to their attention, you mean someone who has been caught doing it before right?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2022 ==

I'm really not convinced that this is what the OP did. From the original post:

And from their draft reply to GTR (post #8):

Going back to the advice I gave at post #10, the important thing relating to this point is to make sure that GTR understand that it won't happen again, and the OP has taken steps to make sure that this is the case. If it is that the OP routinely carries their sibling's Zip card, then the obvious thing is to stop carrying it. If there's a good reason why they normally carry their sibling's Zip card (and there could well be - we've all got relatives who you wouldn't trust to bring their head with them except that it's tied on to their neck) then I'd add a suggestion of keeping one or other of the Zip and Oyster cards in a clearly marked wallet - stick a gold star on it or something so that it's obvious which one you're picking up.

is the suggestion something I should include in the letter or is it too much detail that they’re not bothered reading?

 

[furlong]

What type of Zip Oyster card was it? E.g. 5-10, 11-15 or 16-17
Are you 18 or over and is your own Oyster card a normal full fare adult one?

 

[SKI]

it was a 11-15 and I also had my 18+(Student)

 

[furlong]

And was it only the one single journey? So no daily cap involved?

And did you use your own 18+ Student card that day either before or after? Was there any valid travelcard or season ticket on it?

In other words, work out what your actual saving was, for the individual journey at that point in the day and for the day as a whole.

For example, if you already had a weekly travelcard at the student rate, or hit a daily cap on your own card that day, there'd have been no loss of money to the railway overall and you actually already paid them extra!

(The system is quite complicated, but the Zip card should have meant roughly half-price fares, while the student 18+ may have been of no benefit unless you had a period ticket on it.)

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

Tube and rail fares

Prices for pay as you go, caps and Travelcards when you travel on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services

tfl.gov.uk

What we're trying to do here is see if there is any mitigation, such as the mistake meaning they already got paid more or the same overall.

 

[SKI]

And was it only the one single journey? So no daily cap involved?

And did you use your own 18+ Student card that day either before or after? Was there any valid travelcard or season ticket on it?

In other words, work out what your actual saving was, for the individual journey at that point in the day and for the day as a whole.

For example, if you already had a weekly travelcard at the student rate, or hit a daily cap on your own card that day, there'd have been no loss of money to the railway overall and you actually already paid them extra!

(The system is quite complicated, but the Zip card should have meant roughly half-price fares, while the student 18+ may have been of no benefit unless you had a period ticket on it.)

Single fare finder

Find fares between any two stations in London

tfl.gov.uk

Tube and rail fares

Prices for pay as you go, caps and Travelcards when you travel on the Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services

tfl.gov.uk

What we're trying to do here is see if there is any mitigation, such as the mistake meaning they already got paid more or the same overall.

unfortunately no there was no season ticket on the 18+ at the time so I can’t even argue that case

 

[Tim.]

It's unlikely you'll get a criminal conviction from this especially if you explain it was a genuine mistake or misunderstanding, if it does go to court then you'll probably get a fine (£100) and pay court fees (£225).

Prosecutions units are typically more concerned with deliberate Fare Evasion.

 

[SKI]

if it does go to court, would I get a criminal record?

 

[AlterEgo]

if it does go to court, would I get a criminal record?

Yes, as in you'd be convicted of a crime - a matter of *public record* but that record is not always entered onto the Police National Computer, especially if it's a Bylaw conviction. So the answer is "sort of".

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Going back to the advice I gave at post #10, the important thing relating to this point is to make sure that GTR understand that it won't happen again, and the OP has taken steps to make sure that this is the case. If it is that the OP routinely carries their sibling's Zip card, then the obvious thing is to stop carrying it. If there's a good reason why they normally carry their sibling's Zip card (and there could well be - we've all got relatives who you wouldn't trust to bring their head with them except that it's tied on to their neck) then I'd add a suggestion of keeping one or other of the Zip and Oyster cards in a clearly marked wallet - stick a gold star on it or something so that it's obvious which one you're picking up.

is the suggestion something I should include in the letter or is it too much detail that they’re not bothered reading?

Going back to your draft reply in post #8, in that you just say that you are ' certain nothing like this will occur again'. But you don't say what you are going to do differently to stop it occurring again. I think it is worth explaining what you will do differently - and I have made a couple of suggestions (let your sibling look after their own card so it's not in your wallet in the first place, if it must be in your wallet then make sure it's obviously different from your Oyster card with a gold star or something). You might have a better solution - but I think it is worth telling the railway what that solution is.

 

[MCSHF007]

To clarify would your own Oyster journey history/record confirm that this was the card you would normally use?

If your own journeys are "sparse" and your sibling's are "regular" this might not help your case.

 

[Kilopylae]

Is it worth OP noting that Student Oyster cards look a lot more similar to Zip Oyster cards than ordinary (i.e. no photo) ones do, or will this look like excuse-making?