• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Avanti in crisis talks to consider OLR

Status
Not open for further replies.

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
The message on the Avantiy website refers to the 13:23 from Euston to Blackpool North for tomorrow, 18th August, when there is industrial action.
Yes, but lots of trains are cancelled tomorrow, and this is on a list of updates for today. It looks like they’ve sneakily put one of tomorrow’s cancelled trains at the bottom (the date is very discreetly shown next to the time) so they can get the “industrial action” on the page and make the dozen or so other cancellations from today look like they’re down to that as well. Perhaps I’m being cynical, but they do keep repeating things about “unofficial action.”

For the benefit of visually impaired members, image shows a list of Avanti service alterations from today, with one added from tomorrow listed as due to industrial action.
 

Attachments

  • 6B052908-6491-4CF6-82D5-90A3A7B01DF9.jpeg
    6B052908-6491-4CF6-82D5-90A3A7B01DF9.jpeg
    432 KB · Views: 71
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
739
Location
UK
All they did was replace the n with an N :s

Exactly, how much did that cost us across every unit? Not to mention station branding, letter heads, stationary, uniform etc.

It all has a cost, money which the industry says it’s not got.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
Exactly, how much did that cost us across every unit? Not to mention station branding, letter heads, stationary, uniform etc.

It all has a cost, money which the industry says it’s not got.
Considering LNER remained with undeniably-Virgin-associated-Neo Sans font absolutely everywhere, you would be forgiven for thinking the Northern logo change was a waste of time and resources wouldn’t you?
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,516
I’m reading that yesterday, Avanti locked customers inside Oxenholme station, as the staff all went home before the (delayed) last train arrived.
That sounds more like failure of local management of staffing procedures rather than fundamental failings at Avanti HQ.
 

STINT47

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2020
Messages
874
Location
Nottingham
If Avanti does go then any staff hoping for improved industrial relations may be disappointed. The unions will now be speaking directly to the government and neither candidates for PM strike ne as being big on workers pay and relations.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
3,278
You have to wonder what happened at the top of Avanti. Phil Whittingham has been MD of the West Coast franchise since 2015 - I know the owning group changed, but the culture change in Avanti really is profound for the same people.

The new franchise agreement and the subsequent COVID related financial restrictions and training backlog has exposed the weaknesses in the management. The Franchise Agreement, a Wilkinson special (honed to run on near minimum resource levels), set an agenda that subsequent events have blown apart.

When are the DfT going to learn? Thameslink, TPE, LNWR, Avanti & others, all let with little to no resilience in resource levels so when it falls apart, it really falls apart.

With the wrong management in charge, it rapidly becomes a morale destroyer and the staff start to ease off or go. Then the very worst thing you can do is then try to over optimise the remainder. That sends you rapidly into a downward spiral.

Put in some DfT financial and other controls and it needs a particular skill from the MD & others to get the TOC on an upward path. That seems to have lacking in Avanti and instead we have alleged staff conspiracy theories being aired in public.

If it does go OLR, it shouldn’t take the new TOC directors too long to effect the changes required to restore some staff morale.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
Or we could go for something less London-centric, if there's something wrong with LMS
- GSR Glasgow and Southern Railway
- BMSR Bangor, Manchester and Southern Railway
- WCR West Coast Railway
Ooh, the people of Holyhead will be having words with you... ;)

On a more serious note, the latter would be an obvious choice, fi not for the charter company of a similar name.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
If it does go OLR, it shouldn’t take the new TOC directors too long to effect the changes required to restore some staff morale.
Let’s hope the morale doesn’t go the wrong way then. Virgin Trains East Coast used to have fabulous staff. Now many train managers and even onboard hosts at LNER are unbearably condescending and pompous.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
4,380
Location
belfast
Ooh, the people of Holyhead will be having words with you... ;)

On a more serious note, the latter would be an obvious choice, fi not for the charter company of a similar name.
I'm sure I'll see the error of my ways when I finally visit North Wales ;)
 

GWVillager

Member
Joined
2 May 2022
Messages
871
Location
West Yorkshire
What I'm interested in is what would actually change if Avanti went to the OLR? A new set of managers can be arranged without that. I'm not opposed to OLR for AWC, but I wonder how it would make much difference (and perhaps how, or if, it had any effect on LNER/Northern etc.). That said, a modern day LMS is very tempting! Presumably they'd keep the Avanti blue, so there may be a reversal of the historic colours.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
5,123
Location
County Durham
I don’t know if anyone’s already reported on this, but journey check on the Avanti website reports that a train is cancelled and adds: “This is due to industrial action.”

There’s no strike today is there? Now, god knows I’m not a supporter of the unions, but it seems very wrong to publish that there’s industrial action when there isn’t, just to cover up their own staff shortages?

I find it fascinating how some TOCs just struggle to give their customers what they most want - plain truth.
The train in question is tomorrow which is an RMT strike day
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
The new franchise agreement and the subsequent COVID related financial restrictions and training backlog has exposed the weaknesses in the management. The Franchise Agreement, a Wilkinson special (honed to run on near minimum resource levels), set an agenda that subsequent events have blown apart.

When are the DfT going to learn? Thameslink, TPE, LNWR, Avanti & others, all let with little to no resilience in resource levels so when it falls apart, it really falls apart.

With the wrong management in charge, it rapidly becomes a morale destroyer and the staff start to ease off or go. Then the very worst thing you can do is then try to over optimise the remainder. That sends you rapidly into a downward spiral.

Put in some DfT financial and other controls and it needs a particular skill from the MD & others to get the TOC on an upward path. That seems to have lacking in Avanti and instead we have alleged staff conspiracy theories being aired in public.

If it does go OLR, it shouldn’t take the new TOC directors too long to effect the changes required to restore some staff morale.
That's all well and good but who signed the Franchise Agreement? Who reappointed Phil Whittingham and the other wrong management?
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
3,278
The owners of course. But then owning groups have always had a good bet on any changes to the contract during the lifetime of a franchise suiting them financially.

Appointing any MD who struggles with some aspects of the job and then blames the staff is worthy of a few questions. Appointing an intelligent idiot, such as the previous MD at TPE, is also questionable. If Avanti does go OLR, those questions will be asked of FG, by their shareholders.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,487
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
The owners of course. But then owning groups have always had a good bet on any changes to the contract during the lifetime of a franchise suiting them financially.

Appointing any MD who struggles with some aspects of the job and then blames the staff is worthy of a few questions. Appointing an intelligent idiot, such as the previous MD at TPE, is also questionable. If Avanti does go OLR, those questions will be asked of FG, by their shareholders.
I have never heard of an intelligent idiot before, as the two words do not normally appear together. You learn something medically new on this website every day. When was the previous MD at TPE first diagnosed with that medical condition?
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
I have never heard of an intelligent idiot before, as the two words do not normally appear together. You learn something medically new on this website every day. When was the previous MD at TPE first diagnosed with that medical condition?
It’s possible to be academically gifted but still lacking in basic common sense.
 

Pretendolino

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2014
Messages
33
The new franchise agreement and the subsequent COVID related financial restrictions and training backlog has exposed the weaknesses in the management. The Franchise Agreement, a Wilkinson special (honed to run on near minimum resource levels), set an agenda that subsequent events have blown apart.

When are the DfT going to learn? Thameslink, TPE, LNWR, Avanti & others, all let with little to no resilience in resource levels so when it falls apart, it really falls apart.

With the wrong management in charge, it rapidly becomes a morale destroyer and the staff start to ease off or go. Then the very worst thing you can do is then try to over optimise the remainder. That sends you rapidly into a downward spiral.

Put in some DfT financial and other controls and it needs a particular skill from the MD & others to get the TOC on an upward path. That seems to have lacking in Avanti and instead we have alleged staff conspiracy theories being aired in public.

If it does go OLR, it shouldn’t take the new TOC directors too long to effect the changes required to restore some staff morale.
It's genuinely a perfect storm.

Franchise handovers are tough at the best of times but going from a Virgin culture (embedded since privatisation) to a First culture is quite a stark change. Not only that, VT were running on short-term extensions with minimal investments and continual sweating of assets. The staff and management were used to more of the same and ill-equipped for a huge change programme. Stations were in a poor state of repair (and still are) and the trains knackered.

Then take the franchising model (as was). The nature of business cases is that they yield the greatest returns when done at the start of a franchise. Hence, you get an overwhelming amount of projects running concurrently, which Avanti / ex-VT weren't ready for.

On top of this, you have a delayed rolling stock cascade and some of the new trains not coming out to the right standard (e.g. water not working). There's the traction training that goes with this too, which has put strain on resourcing.

Then you have the huge challenge of Covid, which put delays in training and led to swathes of staff unavailability. It also delayed new staff uniforms, which only just recently rolled out, and even then there was the 'see-through' shirt saga.

Following covid, you then have the EFA and wider industry reform which has caused IR issues. Not least a pay freeze for two years and lots of staff not being accepted for VSS.

Then there's a bucketload of other issues. Fewer staff than envisaged when the franchise started. Lots of driver retirements at key depots and an aging driver demographic. Introduction of the three classes. Strikes on neighbouring TPE.

It looks like staff goodwill has completely dissapated now, which shouldn't be a huge surprise. I'm just not sure that OLR can magically solve some of these issues.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
If this happened, it would have important implications for HS2. Bidders for the West Coast franchise were required to include a partner with experience in running high speed services. Hence First partnered with Trenitalia. Avanti is not just running the West Coast route as it is, but planning for the development of future high speed services and the rolling stock. Finding OLR personnel able to take over these responsibilities wouldn't be easy.

Could the DfT/GBR use somebody from Govia Thameslink Railway/Southeastern as they integrate local and regional trains to Victoria/Charing Cross with the High Speed 1 trains to St Pancras?

Forgive me if the integration is not the case as south of the Thames is foreign to me.
 

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
2,138
According to Avanti, it’s normal practice for the OLR to be involved in these meetings incase there’s a disagreement and one party doesn’t wish to continue. When that happens the OLR will step in.
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,498
The Franchise Agreement, a Wilkinson special (honed to run on near minimum resource levels), set an agenda that subsequent events have blown apart.

But "they have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards"... :lol:

I have never heard of an intelligent idiot before, as the two words do not normally appear together. You learn something medically new on this website every day. When was the previous MD at TPE first diagnosed with that medical condition?
It’s possible to be academically gifted but still lacking in basic common sense.

Point well made.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
Avanti West Coast are directing customers to this statement:

From August 14 until further notice, we're introducing a reduced timetable on our services. This is due to the current industrial relations climate which has resulted in severe staff shortages in some grades through increased sickness levels, as well as the majority of drivers making themselves unavailable for overtime in a co-ordinated fashion, and at short notice.

As a result of this, customers have faced multiple short-notice cancellations on our network which has had a severe impact on their plans.

The reduced timetable is being introduced to ensure a reliable service is delivered so our customers can travel with greater certainty. This decision was not taken lightly, and we are sorry for the enormous frustration and inconvenience this will cause.

We urge the rail unions to engage in meaningful industry reform discussions around modernising working practices and developing a railway fit for the 21st century and we look forward to further talks on this.

You can find that here:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

Veteran Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
35,487
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
It’s possible to be academically gifted but still lacking in basic common sense.
I feel that you are not fully medically conversant with the term "idiot" and of the full implications involved therein. I have read much about the early lunatic asylums of Britain and your somewhat blasé attachment of "lacking in basic common sense" to the term idiot is most certainly incorrect.
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
If Avanti does go then any staff hoping for improved industrial relations may be disappointed. The unions will now be speaking directly to the government and neither candidates for PM strike ne as being big on workers pay and relations.

BIB - not quite. The government will appoint a management team to run things. There is no reason for government ministers to be meeting or negotiating with the unions, regardless of the demands of ASLEF, RMT et al. To give a parallel from the private sector, if there is an industrial dispute the unions negotiate with the management, not the shareholders who own the company.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
I feel that you are not fully medically conversant with the term "idiot" and of the full implications involved therein. I have read much about the early lunatic asylums of Britain and your somewhat blasé attachment of "lacking in basic common sense" to the term idiot is most certainly incorrect.
Lexical and semantic changes to our language have distorted and altered the meanings of many words. I can assure you that 95% of the time “idiot” is used in 2022, it is not to refer to inhabitants of early lunatic asylums of Britain. It’s like how “fine” was almost always used as an exceptionally positive adjective, nowadays it’s become mainly used as a synonym for “OK” or “alright.” And “gay” has transposed from a happy emotion to an everyday term for homosexuality.

I love linguistics with all of my heart, so if you wish to start a new thread on that subject (in General Discussion), I will gladly contribute.
 

physics34

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
4,094
We’re unlikely to notice a difference. They’ll slap some paint the same colour as the bodyside underneath over “Avanti” and we’ll be left with “West Coast”

View attachment 119355

Something like that (excuse the blurriness)
Is it confirmed that Avanti may go to the OLR, or is this Speculative? If so, you might want to consider asking the mods to move the thread :)
When they were applying the current livery/vinyls i had a strong suspicion it wouldnt last long.
 

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
739
Location
UK
Avanti West Coast are directing customers to this statement:



You can find that here:

I find it amazing that the owning company don’t charge whoever authorised these statements to be made with bringing the company into disrepute.

You can bet your bottom dollar if a driver, guard or front line employee made comments like that they’d be looking for a new job quick sharpe !
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,625
Avanti West Coast are directing customers to this statement:



You can find that here:
Unbelievable. A large amount of the problem has been caused by management laying into staff in public statements and they continue to do exactly that!!
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
12,895
Location
Cambridge
I find it amazing that the owning company don’t charge whoever authorised these statements to be made with bringing the company into disrepute.

You can bet your bottom dollar if a driver, guard or front line employee made comments like that they’d be looking for a new job quick sharpe !
It is amusingly passive-aggressive.
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
I’ve heard on twitter and from a few friends inside Avanti that they are in talks, possibly running to the wire, to move into control of the OLR.

Has anyone heard about this, or can shed any further light?
So Avanti are allegedly packing it in? Doesn't surprise me and I doubt it'll be the first First TOC this year, looking at the way TPE is.
Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?
OLR Northern has been a mixed bag. Things seem slightly better, although I've seen more cancellations than under Arriva. They've also done some Arriva-esque things, such as ordering hybrid 195s instead of bi-mode 331s.
That may be the offical reason, but I think we all know the real reason was to make the Tories look like they'd done something good for the north, considering they'd just won a lot of "red wall" seats.
Correct. Removing Arriva was more a political move than a genuine performance/financial concern.
Let’s hope the morale doesn’t go the wrong way then.
Morale at Avanti is basically gone anyways.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top