What’s going on with Thameslink?

[21C101]

Should be pleased that sounds like a signaller doing a bit of smart regulating to get your train round a stopping service on the Slows. Used to happen all the time but rare these days as signallers get beaten up if they show a bit of initiative and it doesn't work.

What is needed at Earlswood is the fast line platforms reinstated. Both for times like this and to allow London to Redhill without a long bus ride when the tracks north of Redhill are shut.

In the last couple of years of their existence they were in use many of not most weekends with services like London to Eastbourne making additional calls.

Having arrived at Earlswood you either had a 10 minute walk into town (it's all of half a mile) or use the Gatwick to Redhill shuttle they provided.

 

[WizCastro197]

Should be pleased that sounds like a signaller doing a bit of smart regulating to get your train round a stopping service on the Slows. Used to happen all the time but rare these days as signallers get beaten up if they show a bit of initiative and it doesn't work.

Oh Okay Thanks. Probably needed the train was around 15 minutes late already so probably allowed a stopper to occupy the line

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

What is needed at Earlswood is the fast line platforms reinstated. Both for times like this and to allow London to Redhill without a long bus ride when the tracks north of Redhill are shut.

In the last couple of years of their existence they were in use many of not most weekends with services like London to Eastbourne making additional calls.

Having arrived at Earlswood you either had a 10 minute walk into town (it's all of half a mile) or use the Gatwick to Redhill shuttle they provided.

I think the reinstating of the 2 fast platforms which are still there just in a semi derelict and overgrown state, is rather ambitious and probably a little expensive, I think a crossover onto the fast line to allow services as you mentioned to run. just before the split could be useful and a lot less money?

 

[JonathanH]

Someone may have mentioned before but Earlswood was void of a London bound service this morning with the only departure being the 09:01 to Victoria. The 09:31 was cancelled but still joined at Redhill. Probably Ran fast from Gatwick skipping Horley Salfords and Earlswood. Very Disappointing for local residents and commuters who have absolutely no access to London (and beyond) except for driving to Redhill and having to pay the overpriced parking fare.

Also very strange, Unrelated but my train exited the slow line when they join before Purley. It was then placed onto the fast line for Purley, stopped on the fast line, and continued on the Fast until it rejoined the slow at the Crossover before ECR? Why did this happen I've never seen it before? Normally if routed on the fast line from Redhill it continues into ECR PLt1 not switches back onto the slow line when after a couple minutes then has to rejoin the fast line to reach Clapham? Normally those Trains on Sunday from Portsmouth and Bognor.

Not quite. The 0901 ran from Earlswood to Redhill where it terminated in platform 0. It was then to return from Redhill to Gatwick as the 0859 service but eventually got cancelled and formed the front of the 0941 to Victoria, having waited for the Reigate portion.

The reason for this seems to be that the 0809 from Victoria terminated in platform 3 without splitting for Reigate. The 0915 from Redhill to Victoria was formed of these units.

I dont understand why the 0941 from Redhill was put from the fast line across to platform 4 at East Croydon. Platform 4 was occupied and platform 1 wasn't so this move cost the train about 10 minutes waiting for platform 4 to become vacant. The empty stock train in front had been delayed by the Thameslink service in front needing to cross from platform 2 to the slow line to access the Streatham route.

It took me about an hour to get from Reigate to East Croydon this morning at 9am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

I think a crossover onto the fast line to allow services as you mentioned to run. just before the split could be useful and a lot less money?

The available space at Earlswood is occupied by the crossover fast to slow, which is why the slow to fast crossover is south of the station.

Too much upheaval to change that.

 

[WizCastro197]

Not quite. The 0901 ran from Earlswood to Redhill where it terminated in platform 0. It was then to return from Redhill to Gatwick as the 0859 service but eventually got cancelled and formed the front of the 0941 to Victoria, having waited for the Reigate portion.

The reason for this seems to be that the 0809 from Victoria terminated in platform 3 without splitting for Reigate. The 0915 from Redhill to Victoria was formed of these units.

I dont understand why the 0941 from Redhill was put from the fast line across to platform 4 at East Croydon. Platform 4 was occupied and platform 1 wasn't so this move cost the train about 10 minutes waiting for platform 4 to become vacant. The empty stock train in front had been delayed by the Thameslink service in front needing to cross from platform 2 to the slow line to access the Streatham route.

It took me about an hour to get from Reigate to East Croydon this morning at 9am.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==


The available space at Earlswood is occupied by the crossover fast to slow, which is why the slow to fast crossover is south of the station.

Too much upheaval to change that.

Was it Ten Minutes? I was on it it was more like 5. Heard some strange announcements from a lady asking OBS to contact driver about an alarm going off in the toilet? Which I thought contributed to the delay.
Yes as the train pulled in I could see that PLT1 was free just behind the Littlehampton service I think on PLT3/2. It shouldn't have crossed over it was already delayed by quite a bit

In between the gap between services. Where was the Second portion stored? The Redhill South Sidings, near the Tonbridge line? I was already on the train by that point to couldn't see the attachment or where it came from

 

[infobleep]

A few Brighton Thameslink trains went via Redhill northbound to fill some of the gaps.

Whilst this may well have been the case, nothing is showing on Journey Check so the Redhill stop must not have been entered into systems that supply running information to passengers.

If one checks train services before they head to the station, how are they to know trains are running if not shown?

 

[GordonT]

More a GN than a TL thing but there has been much queueing this evening on the slow line from Hatfield and beyond into Welwyn GC due to the length of time terminators at WGC have been occupying platforms 3 & 4.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Whilst this may well have been the case, nothing is showing on Journey Check so the Redhill stop must not have been entered into systems that supply running information to passengers.

If one checks train services before they head to the station, how are they to know trains are running if not shown?

Precisely although i suspect it was Redhill control point remonstrating with control to get something diverted and thus done at short notice. The failure here and lets be honest its been going on ever since the quarry lines were built 120 years ago is Redhill is just an operating inconvenience.

 

[Jturner98]

I’ve moved to the Redhill area about a year ago. Unfortunately for me as I work in New Cross Gate I never got to use the old Southern service from London Bridge - Horsham stopping at New Cross Gate. Surely this couldn’t of been as unreliable as Thameslink? It seems a daily occurrence on that line. I’ve only been using the line for about a year and I’m over the moon that in a week I’m moving house so I won’t have to be subjected to all that *#%%! Anymore…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I’ve moved to the Redhill area about a year ago. Unfortunately for me as I work in New Cross Gate I never got to use the old Southern service from London Bridge - Horsham stopping at New Cross Gate. Surely this couldn’t of been as unreliable as Thameslink? It seems a daily occurrence on that line. I’ve only been using the line for about a year and I’m over the moon that in a week I’m moving house so I won’t have to be subjected to all that *#%%! Anymore…

That was a fabulous service i worked up in Shoreditch did LO down to NXG quick swap to island platform for the Horsham service. There was plenty of people who were using that service to get to/from East end of London locations I can tell you. Its plain daft no Tlk call there and really the 9Rxx should have the Norwood stop dropped and replaced with NXG. Good connectivity is key to driving modal shift and that should be given far more priority than it is and hopefully GBR will rectify that in due course.

Oh and others have observed they spent millions at NXG installing a new footbridge, lifts and staircase to facilitate easy platform transfers.

 

[WizCastro197]

I’ve moved to the Redhill area about a year ago. Unfortunately for me as I work in New Cross Gate I never got to use the old Southern service from London Bridge - Horsham stopping at New Cross Gate. Surely this couldn’t of been as unreliable as Thameslink? It seems a daily occurrence on that line. I’ve only been using the line for about a year and I’m over the moon that in a week I’m moving house so I won’t have to be subjected to all that *#%%! Anymore…

I remember the service but unfortunately not the reliability. Many of Redhill's Services have been eliminated I think since 2018 including the service to New Cross Gate. I cannot recall either why it was removed but my absolute best guess which I hope is right is the introduction of Thameslink rendered it not needed as it still called at Norwood Junction where one can change for a greater array of destinations

Although Changing at NXG would've probably been easier

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I remember the service but unfortunately not the reliability. Many of Redhill's Services have been eliminated I think since 2018 including the service to New Cross Gate. I cannot recall either why it was removed but my absolute best guess which I hope is right is either low passenger numbers for that service at NXG and the introduction of Thameslink probably wiped it out entirely

Nothing to with that it was the significant increase in services on the Fast lines meant stopping at NXG didn't work with the timetable.

 

[WizCastro197]

Nothing to with that it was the significant increase in services on the Fast lines meant stopping at NXG didn't work with the timetable.

Ahh Okay thanks. 2018 I can't remember too well in terms of services except that terrible terrible horrendous disruption

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ahh Okay thanks. 2018 I can't remember too well in terms of services except that terrible terrible horrendous disruption

Yep May 18 will be etched on my mind forever a complete catastrophe for the Redhill lines but to be fair to GTR they got on top of things by July and got the intended service in for September. Tlk is brilliant for me hardly ever use the tube these days but there needs to be a substantial improvement in how they deal with disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

I did. The disruption being experienced now was obvious to me way back in 2014.

Really? You predicted the worst spell of industrial relations on the railway, and the hottest summer ever recorded in this country 8 years ago? Fair play to you.

but other perturbations to the service are frequent and unpredictable.

The railway operates in the real world of extreme weather events, people going under trains and infrastructure failures, not some fantasy island where the timetable always runs perfectly.

But I thought you said you predicted it? I’m confused.

At what point can the core be declared a failed experiment?

Is 34 years an experiment?

 

[WizCastro197]

Yep May 18 will be etched on my mind forever a complete catastrophe for the Redhill lines but to be fair to GTR they got on top of things by July and got the intended service in for September. Tlk is brilliant for me hardly ever use the tube these days but there needs to be a substantial improvement in how they deal with disruption.

Yes I also used to use Thameslink a lot as my dad was a massive Thameslink addict and has some issues mainly with Victoria Station which I can't help but laugh at every time I'm told the reason. Even to Go to Sloane Square iT was always Blackfriars never Victoria! But Since Last Year Ive permanently switched to Southern and have only tried to use Thameslink where I absolutely have to. For a Person living on the Redhill line It's almost impossible to reach the South Coast Without Thameslink. (Only Heading in the Southbound Direction, Not Northbound To get down south if that makes sense) But To be fair Southern's Reliability has improved ever so slightly over the past few years/months.

 

[387star]

It's a really useful service when it's running properly.

Do Horsham drivers go all the way to Peterborough and vice versa or changeover at Finsbury Park?

Most surely sign the route in full now

I transferred to Three Bridges from Horsham after just a year of being Qualified. I was selected randomly along with a few others to learn the whole route and believe I was the first to sign everything ahead of the May 18 timetable change. For the first few months it was frustrating to mostly only go as far as Finsbury Park !

As mentioned before southern drivers who became thameslink drivers at Horsham did not sign AC traction, Three Bridges Depot the core and Great Northern network before the service started . The entire operation was a shambles. Remember laughing about the impossibility of it with colleagues at the time

 

[Magdalia]

Really? You predicted the worst spell of industrial relations on the railway, and the hottest summer ever recorded in this country 8 years ago? Fair play to you.





But I thought you said you predicted it? I’m confused.

What I predicted in 2014 was that there would be disruptions, and that the consequences of the Thameslink timetable for GN services would be at least as bad as MML and and probably worse. That's what happened. What might cause the disruption was irrelevant, what I was predicting was the consequences for the service.

Harmonious industrial relations do not last for ever. And now is nowhere near as bad as the flexible rostering and DOO disputes in the early 1980s. I was commuting during both of those.

Climate change and extreme weather events have been predicted for decades. A long hot summer, and record temperatures, some time in the near future was very likely, even in 2014, and there was a clear warning in 2019.

What's not predictable is when such events will occur. That's what makes them different from, for example, engineering work. But such events should be on the risk register, with contingency plans in place for when they happen.

 

[bramling]

Really? You predicted the worst spell of industrial relations on the railway, and the hottest summer ever recorded in this country 8 years ago? Fair play to you.

I certainly predicted that things would go wrong in places on the extended TL network, and that when they did they would be both disproportionately disruptive and difficult to recover.

And here we are - my local station might as well be flattened and converted to landscape gardens, which would add more value to my town than the unreliable train service currently offers.

Is 34 years an experiment?

There is a slight difference between the 1990s Thameslink, which from what I recall settled on 4tph Luton-Sutton and 4tph Bedford-Brighton off-peak, and today’s rather considerably expanded network which has brought in two further networks and more trains per hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a slight difference between the 1990s Thameslink, which from what I recall settled on 4tph Luton-Sutton and 4tph Bedford-Brighton off-peak,

It’s been 13 years since it was 4 Bedford - Brightons and 4 Luton - Sutton’s (off peak only frequency).

 

[bramling]

It’s been 13 years since it was 4 Bedford - Brightons and 4 Luton - Sutton’s (off peak only frequency).

And it was unreliable then with just that, so it shouldn’t really be a surprise that Thameslink Programme has spread the brown stuff to the new routes.

The point was also amply made on here that many of the new routes would find things difficult due to being half-hourly services as opposed to 4tph on 1990s Bedford-Brighton, plus in many cases lacking alternatives. There’s a big difference between St Albans disruption where there are multiple trains per hour, and St Neots disruption where one missing train is an hour’s gap.

 

[Magdalia]

It’s been 13 years since it was 4 Bedford - Brightons and 4 Luton - Sutton’s (off peak only frequency).

In 2009 the only change increased the off peak service in the core to 10tph with the addition of 2tph to/from Sevenoaks running through to Kentish Town because the bays at Blackfriars had been removed. In the context of this discussion, it can't be regarded as significant.

 

[387star]

Oh Okay Thanks. Probably needed the train was around 15 minutes late already so probably allowed a stopper to occupy the line

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==


I think the reinstating of the 2 fast platforms which are still there just in a semi derelict and overgrown state, is rather ambitious and probably a little expensive, I think a crossover onto the fast line to allow services as you mentioned to run. just before the split could be useful and a lot less money?

When did the Earlswood fast platforms close, out of interest?

May 2018 was a particularly troublesome time to put it mildly. This was in part down to the delay of the 700s entering service and a chronic shortage of DIs causing a huge backlog of trainees. Some trainees ended up waiting over SIX MONTHS for a DI and this was before Covid. When DIs were eventually enlisted on the 700 course their trainees weren't which meant there was the farcical situation where the DI could drive but the trainee was effectively front ending after months of doing just that.

Horsham was a brand new Thameslink depot opening in May 18. Aside a few internal transfers from Three Bridges (including myself) the depot was mostly made up of ex Southern Horsham drivers. When the service to Peterborough began said Drivers did not sign AC traction, the Thameslink Core, Three Bridges 700 depot and the Great Northern lines. Commissiong Drivers were released to relieve Drivers at St Pancras or East Croydon and pilot them over the new lines to London Bridge High Level and the Core. Often this ended up in disaster as they were delayed on trains and weren't there to relieve Drivers. Drivers were also passing on the Underground and were uncontacable. There was also immense pressure to get Drivers signed off as soon as possible which didn't go down well. Trains would also skip stations on a regular basis and often the Signaller wasnt even told despite working in the same building which made things interesting. Anyway that was 2018...

It seems things were much better for a while certainly from around 2019 so it's saddening to see the line struggling again although a lot of external factors are stacking up

 

[Surreytraveller]

Should be pleased that sounds like a signaller doing a bit of smart regulating to get your train round a stopping service on the Slows. Used to happen all the time but rare these days as signallers get beaten up if they show a bit of initiative and it doesn't work.

More likely a Controller asking a Signaller to do that

 

[SE%Traveller]

I've been doing St Pancras to Denmark Hill for 10 years now and i thought by 2019 it had settled pretty well (after the initial May 2018 chaos) and was the best i'd ever known it. 4tph (albeit 2 from BFR) all day certainly helped, a cancelation meaning a 15 delay feels fart far better than a half hour one.

Post pandemic it's been rubbish, 4tph is back to 2 tph off peak, with no through services, The Luton Orpingtons they are running in the peak are sparodic and only 4 of 6 scheduled in start north of Blackfriars giving an effective 25/5 service gap in these circumstances. Predictably they get canned early any side of trouble

I think a bit of tweaking of routes to simplify could help and they could make better uses of the Bromley South Line. it's rather better at recovering usually as there are multiple diversions around blocks so less issues with trains out of position and you have the option of running into the Bays that too so building in recovery too is easer, i'd have thought.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That was a fabulous service i worked up in Shoreditch did LO down to NXG quick swap to island platform for the Horsham service. There was plenty of people who were using that service to get to/from East end of London locations I can tell you. Its plain daft no Tlk call there and really the 9Rxx should have the Norwood stop dropped and replaced with NXG. Good connectivity is key to driving modal shift and that should be given far more priority than it is and hopefully GBR will rectify that in due course.

Oh and others have observed they spent millions at NXG installing a new footbridge, lifts and staircase to facilitate easy platform transfers.

Yes. The 9R should call at New Cross Gate instead of Norwood Junction, as from September the 1Ps are calling at Norwood Junction anyway. They should also be extended to and from Horsham, as they stop at Purley and the 9Js should be the ones terminating at Gatwick.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes. The 9R should call at New Cross Gate instead of Norwood Junction, as from September the 1Ps are calling at Norwood Junction anyway. They should also be extended to and from Horsham, as they stop at Purley and the 9Js should be the ones terminating at Gatwick.

Argh then that definitely makes its possible to switch the 9Rs to NXG without a TT rewrite. I don't mind where the 9Rs go to on the South side beyond Earlswood but i would have curtailed them to Luton on the North side now EMR serve Bedford with the Corby service twice an hour. I'd also say that integration of TLk with ECML is having significant downside to users on both sides of the river whenever there is disruption and should be re thought. The Peterboroughs should have been kept self contained to GN and the 9Js run no further than WGC.

Anyhow what needs to be done is to have a contingency plan that can deal with disruption far better than now as it feels like the controllers are managing on the hoof - yes i know every incident is different - to provide the best service they can for the passengers. It would also be useful to share the high level principles of that plan with passengers. ie do i goto KX or Finsbury Pk for a Peterborough service.

 

[GordonT]

Argh then that definitely makes its possible to switch the 9Rs to NXG without a TT rewrite. I don't mind where the 9Rs go to on the South side beyond Earlswood but i would have curtailed them to Luton on the North side now EMR serve Bedford with the Corby service twice an hour. I'd also say that integration of TLk with ECML is having significant downside to users on both sides of the river whenever there is disruption and should be re thought. The Peterboroughs should have been kept self contained to GN and the 9Js run no further than WGC.

Anyhow what needs to be done is to have a contingency plan that can deal with disruption far better than now as it feels like the controllers are managing on the hoof - yes i know every incident is different - to provide the best service they can for the passengers. It would also be useful to share the high level principles of that plan with passengers. ie do i goto KX or Finsbury Pk for a Peterborough service.

I wonder if the current low morale/industrial relations strife is compounding the problem - some staff no longer disposed to continually beat themselves up trying to sweep up messes resulting from an inherently fragile operation perhaps?

 

[WizCastro197]

Thameslink In the Redhill area is doing quite well. But It is a heavily reduced service which they are able to handle. It's a shame that the only day for a little while where the Service is reliable and you can board a train knowing that you will get to your destination without too much hassle is a strike day where significantly less will be travelling. But to be fair because the Strikes are now quite a commodity I don't think people care anymore.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thameslink In the Redhill area is doing quite well. But It is a heavily reduced service which they are able to handle. It's a shame that the only day for a little while where the Service is reliable and you can board a train knowing that you will get to your destination without too much hassle is a strike day where significantly less will be travelling. But to be fair because the Strikes are now quite a commodity I don't think people care anymore.

The difference is GTR have plenty of drivers to cover it for the 10hrs its running compared to a non strike day and they will all know the route from Bridges/Brighton. On a normal day (are there any!) the permutations when things go awry are vastly increased for the controllers to manage. I recollect Thameslink was supposed to have one of these airy fairy traffic management systems that NR spent a fortune on but discarded that were supposed to help them manage in real time.

 

[Minstral25]

When did the Earlswood fast platforms close, out of interest?

May 2018 was a particularly troublesome time to put it mildly. This was in part down to the delay of the 700s entering service and a chronic shortage of DIs causing a huge backlog of trainees. Some trainees ended up waiting over SIX MONTHS for a DI and this was before Covid. When DIs were eventually enlisted on the 700 course their trainees weren't which meant there was the farcical situation where the DI could drive but the trainee was effectively front ending after months of doing just that.

Horsham was a brand new Thameslink depot opening in May 18. Aside a few internal transfers from Three Bridges (including myself) the depot was mostly made up of ex Southern Horsham drivers. When the service to Peterborough began said Drivers did not sign AC traction, the Thameslink Core, Three Bridges 700 depot and the Great Northern lines. Commissiong Drivers were released to relieve Drivers at St Pancras or East Croydon and pilot them over the new lines to London Bridge High Level and the Core. Often this ended up in disaster as they were delayed on trains and weren't there to relieve Drivers. Drivers were also passing on the Underground and were uncontacable. There was also immense pressure to get Drivers signed off as soon as possible which didn't go down well. Trains would also skip stations on a regular basis and often the Signaller wasnt even told despite working in the same building which made things interesting. Anyway that was 2018...

It seems things were much better for a while certainly from around 2019 so it's saddening to see the line struggling again although a lot of external factors are stacking up

Earlswood platforms closed to allow faster speeds into the Quarry line tunnels. At the same time they singled the crossings from fast to mains which I would suggest has done more to create serious issues for trains accessing Redhill than closure of Earlswood platform.

May 18 was indeed difficult for passengers too, to me problems started with not allowing trains through London Bridge to train drivers in Jan 2018. Thank you for being part of the great railway family getting us to work, it is appreciated.

Yes. The 9R should call at New Cross Gate instead of Norwood Junction, as from September the 1Ps are calling at Norwood Junction anyway. They should also be extended to and from Horsham, as they stop at Purley and the 9Js should be the ones terminating at Gatwick.

Agree totally, will not happen as Thameslinks need to speed through New Cross Gate so they do not get in way of other Thameslink services on the mains.

On 9R's and 9J's swapping would mean you would need to retrain many drivers at both Horsham and Three Bridges depots as they are swapping routes which is expensive (and would lead to a temporary shortage of drivers). Also 9R and 1J arrive at Gatwick at same time so would trip over each other at Three Bridges heading down to Horsham.

Argh then that definitely makes its possible to switch the 9Rs to NXG without a TT rewrite. I don't mind where the 9Rs go to on the South side beyond Earlswood but i would have curtailed them to Luton on the North side now EMR serve Bedford with the Corby service twice an hour. I'd also say that integration of TLk with ECML is having significant downside to users on both sides of the river whenever there is disruption and should be re thought. The Peterboroughs should have been kept self contained to GN and the 9Js run no further than WGC.

Anyhow what needs to be done is to have a contingency plan that can deal with disruption far better than now as it feels like the controllers are managing on the hoof - yes i know every incident is different - to provide the best service they can for the passengers. It would also be useful to share the high level principles of that plan with passengers. ie do i goto KX or Finsbury Pk for a Peterborough service.

The 9R's and 9T's keep mostly same station calls north of St Pancras to create the required 4 trains per hour service to Bedford, which I have heard tend to be very busy plus are only trains calling at Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave. Something else would probably need to replace them if you stopped them short so probably not worth the effort.