Avanti in crisis talks to consider OLR

[WizCastro197]

It’s really quite odd how Great Western Railway continues to perform well (apart from short forms) while the others continue to sink lower and lower.

TransPennine Express doesn’t seem to get as much negative coverage as SWR and Avanti West Coast, but it ought to. It seems more of their trains are cancelled than run these days.

Perhaps it is because First has operated GWR for the longest thus having more experience with route and solutions and how to handle generally everything for the most customer friendly way say something goes wrong?

 

[DanNCL]

SWR isn't too bad but then again I dont think it fits the accurate criteria as it has another shareholder but First is majority?

SWR's issue is rolling stock. Granted the 701s is hardly their fault but they've handled the removal of the 456s, and now also the 455s and 458s appallingly.

Avanti also has another shareholder; Trenitalia.

It’s really quite odd how Great Western Railway continues to perform well (apart from short forms) while the others continue to sink lower and lower.

GWR suffers more from the restrictions of the Agility Trains contract than anything else and that's an issue any operator of that contract would have.

TransPennine Express doesn’t seem to get as much negative coverage as SWR and Avanti West Coast, but it ought to. It seems more of their trains are cancelled than run these days.

There are very active local campaigns about TPE's unreliability in Chester-le-Street and Lockerbie, which seem to be the two stations worst hit by TPE's cancellations. Lockerbie has the added issue of Avanti being their backup TOC!

 

[Clarence Yard]

OLR Holdings will probably appoint just two or three non executive directors to the TOC Board, which they will Chair. If they feel any of the executive need to go, that will happen. But they don’t need hoards of people to effect change.

OLR isn’t a complete new management - it’s usually more subtle than that. More a change of direction, if they have the money to do so. OLRs are now under the same financial restrictions as other TOCs.

 

[WizCastro197]

SWR's issue is rolling stock. Granted the 701s is hardly their fault but they've handled the removal of the 456s, and now also the 455s and 458s appallingly.

Avanti also has another shareholder; Trenitalia.


GWR suffers more from the restrictions of the Agility Trains contract than anything else and that's an issue any operator of that contract would have.


There are very active local campaigns about TPE's unreliability in Chester-le-Street and Lockerbie, which seem to be the two stations worst hit by TPE's cancellations. Lockerbie has the added issue of Avanti being their backup TOC!

I don't believe the 458s are leaving. They will remain on suburban and also be fitted to run on Portsmouth Services.
But This is off topic so I won't go any further

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

TPE doesn't serve a London terminus. That's the main reason why.

That’s a very cynical and boringly overused view, frankly. I reckon it’s more because people are used to Northern being the burden of the region. Now that things are improving there (and they are), First and TransPennine’s flaws are really coming to light.

It is a shame, though, that LNWR has already gone. Though you could perhaps, without being totally historically accurate, use LMS (with the M meaning both Manchester and Midlands), though sadly that wouldn't allow for the "N" flash of LNER to be used here too.

If one more TOC tries to appease the “old-school” enthusiasts with another horrendous dated throwback name, I will go bananas. We’re best to cross the naming bridge when/if it’s confirmed this is happening though, so not as to speculate or stray too far off topic.

Perhaps it is because First has operated GWR for the longest thus having more experience with route and solutions and how to handle generally everything for the most customer friendly way say something goes wrong?

Yes, this would make sense.
What I asked another member in a private discussion earlier would be whether there’s any chance of First simply losing their stake in the West Coast, with the reins being given to Trenitalia - who operate c2c without apparent fault.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

GWR suffers more from the restrictions of the Agility Trains contract than anything else and that's an issue any operator of that contract would have.

Well, quite. We know first hand OLR’s aren’t excused from that burden, so the constant short forms and unavailability of Azumas proves.

 

[Thermal]

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

Northern were already much improved from their lows before coming under OLR. They currently have quite a few factors also aiding them in the short term such as still running a reduced covid timetable whilst at the same time over recruiting in anticipation of Sundays inside for some staff that has been delayed and pausing training for qualified staff whilst prioritising trainees. At some point in the future the demands of increasing the timetable + releasing staff to catch up on training + losing the surplus staffing once Sunday's are resolved could well cause them bigger issues again.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't believe the 458s are leaving. They will remain on suburban and also be fitted to run on Portsmouth Services.
But This is off topic so I won't go any further

8 are being withdrawn, the rest are going for refurb. Withdrawals have already began.

That’s a very cynical and boringly overused view.

It's true though sadly.

What I asked another member in a private discussion earlier would be whether there’s any chance of First simply losing their stake in the West Coast, with the reins being given to Trenitalia - who operate c2c without apparent fault.

I suspect if this happens it would likely be Trenitalia kept only in a consultatory role, similar to Keolis's current role with TFW.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

TransPennine Express doesn’t seem to get as much negative coverage as SWR and Avanti West Coast, but it ought to. It seems more of their trains are cancelled than run these days.

Possibly because TPE trains don't go anywhere near London.

As regards Avanti, just how soon might they be moved over to being under OLR?

 

[Agent_Squash]

That’s a very cynical and boringly overused view.

It, sadly, is largely the truth. The BBC do tend to cover TPE more than other news outlets do (perhaps due to the Salford base) but if the majority of your journalists are based in the South, it's only natural the stories will skew south too.

What I asked another member in a private discussion earlier would be whether there’s any chance of First simply losing their stake in the West Coast, with the reins being given to Trenitalia - who operate c2c without apparent fault.

It's particularly difficult to mess up c2c - no TOC on TOC interactions (apart from the weekend jaunt to Liverpool Street), dedicated lines, modern stock. That's probably why National Express kept going after losing everything else.

 

[DanNCL]

As regards Avanti, just how soon might they be moved over to under OLR?

If it's like Southeastern and VTEC it could be done within weeks of being announced

 

[CL395]

Didn’t LNER become OLR as well? In my opinion they’re pretty great at the minute, at least the best around the north east and yorkshire, despite those drasted seats…

 

[duncanp]

The issue that Avanti has which no other TOC has is that they've gone to the media to slag off their employees. There's been a breakdown in trust between management and employees and I think it's become clear that it's now irreparable with the current management.

I think if Avanti go to an operator of last resort, the first thing that will happen is that there will be a clear out of the top managment team, especially those who have bad mouthed their employees on social media.

The new management team can then sit down with the unions and negotiate a settlement of the dispute, which is likely to take time, but could lead to an improvement in services if there can be an agreement on the long term objectives.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I suspect if this happens it would likely be Trenitalia kept only in a consultatory role, similar to Keolis's current role with TFW.

Such is what prompted me to think similar might happen in these circumstances.

I can fully understand why action needs to be taken. When it gets to the extremes that Britain’s flagship rail route knocks the London Manchester and London Birmingham routes from 3tph to 1tph due to staff shortages, that’s where intervention is required.

 

[DanNCL]

Didn’t LNER become OLR as well? In my opinion they’re pretty great at the minute, at least the best around the north east and yorkshire, despite those drasted seats…

Yes, they were mobilised to take over from VTEC in just a few weeks from being announced.

LNER have been in for a bit of a shock lately as DFT funding controls have started to be imposed on them. Gone are the days of talking concourse info screens!

I think if Avanti go to an operator of last resort, the first thing that will happen is that there will be a clear out of the top managment team, especially those who have bad mouthed their employees on social media.

The new management team can then sit down with the unions and negotiate a settlement of the dispute, which is likely to take time, but could lead to an improvement in services if there can be an agreement on the long term objectives.

I think this is where Avanti differs from the other TOCs that have had to go to the OLR. The issue at Avanti can only be solved by clearing out top management, whereas the issues with VTEC have largely been solved by LNER withouth changing the top management.

 

[WizCastro197]

Doesn't the whole debacle keep advocating for the re-nationalisation of the Railways?

DfT seem to have accumulated quite a few franchises now.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Didn’t LNER become OLR as well? In my opinion they’re pretty great at the minute, at least the best around the north east and yorkshire, despite those drasted seats…

They did, but LNER came along due to faults of Virgin Trains East Coast that didn’t really affect the passenger (overspending/the bid). LNER are fine, but VTEC were fine too. Northern, however, just didn’t seem to run. That’s where the OLR have improved the situation, and is what an OLR would need to do for Avanti.

Doesn't the whole debacle keep advocating for the re-nationalisation of the Railways?

That is a brand new can of worms entirely I’m not sure if we should even go there!

 

[tomuk]

Didn’t LNER become OLR as well? In my opinion they’re pretty great at the minute, at least the best around the north east and yorkshire, despite those drasted seats…

Yes, retained most of the management team. The big change was they no longer had to pay the DfT the huge premium fees. It's a lot easier to run a business when you don't need to pay out more than you are earning to a third party.

 

[Signal_Box]

The improvements were coming anyway. No increases in competence or creativity could be detected.

LOL love it !

 

[Bertie the bus]

The improvements in Northern were coming anyway but being cynical about it, the DfT could use the money saved in not having to pay the management fee for Avanti to put right some of the issues they have caused in the first place! And they can show they are being “hard” in the process. Moving to OLR can sometimes be more political than anything else - Northern was a good example of this.

So instead of paying a company to do an absolutely appalling job they could use that money to improve the service. I think somewhere around 99.99% of the population would consider that a good thing.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Yes, retained most of the management team. The big change was they no longer had to pay the DfT the huge premium fees. It's a lot easier to run a business when you don't need to pay out more than you are earning to a third party.

You have to wonder what happened at the top of Avanti. Phil Whittingham has been MD of the West Coast franchise since 2015 - I know the owning group changed, but the culture change in Avanti really is profound for the same people.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The improvements were coming anyway. No increases in competence or creativity could be detected.

Now then, don’t forget about the several thousand pounds “designer logo”

 

[DanNCL]

Doesn't the whole debacle keep advocating for the re-nationalisation of the Railways?

DfT seem to have accumulated quite a few franchises now.

Let’s not go down that road!!

They did, but LNER came along due to faults of Virgin Trains East Coast that didn’t really affect the passenger (overspending/the bid). LNER are fine, but VTEC were fine too. Northern, however, just didn’t seem to run. That’s where the OLR have improved the situation, and is what an OLR would need to do for Avanti.

VTEC were utterly dire when it came to just about anything other than first class. LNER fixed the majority of the issues, but some remain, such as the lack of unbiased station staff at many of the stations they manage.

So instead of paying a company to do an absolutely appalling job they could use that money to improve the service. I think somewhere around 99.99% of the population would consider that a good thing.

There’s even Tories that would consider it a good thing!

You have to wonder what happened at the top of Avanti. Phil Whittingham has been MD of the West Coast franchise since 2015 - I know the owning group changed, but the culture change in Avanti really is profound for the same people.

The same happened the opposite way round with LNER. The culture was bad under VTEC, massively improved under LNER. David Horne has also been MD of the East Coast franchise since 2015.

 

[thomalex]

Wonder if the ‘comedy’ Twitter account will continue while this is going on

 

[Huntergreed]

Now then, don’t forget about the several thousand pounds “designer logo”

Microsoft publisher have really upped their prices these days!

Whilst it’s clear that this won’t immediately resolve anything, I absolutely support the Intercity WC franchise becoming an OLR. It’s made improvements on the ECML, and Avanti have single-handedly turned the best TOC in the UK to the worst TOC in the UK in a very short period of time.

If we could undo all the nonsensical changes Avanti have made (including imposing changes on staff, lowering morale to ridiculous levels, the introduction of standard premium (whilst charging the same price) and the ridiculous price increase for first class!) that would be a start!

The franchise needs “de-avantified”

 

[WizCastro197]

Let’s not go down that road!!

Okay Fair Enough. Seems a much larger, more controversial topic that should stay out of it. Just thought it was rather ironic as conservatives who I am a little sure are are against nationalisation are using the WMN. Weapon of Mass Nationalisation.

There’s even Tories that would consider it a good thing!

Would they. Really?... They would still do the complete opposite to please that small 0.1% of people.

 

[DanNCL]

Would they. Really?... They would still do the complete opposite to please that small 0.1% of people.

Yes they’re just not MPs. Plenty of ordinary Conservative members would back the idea.

 

[modernrail]

TPE doesn't serve a London terminus. That's the main reason why.

Quite

 

[WizCastro197]

Yes they’re just not MPs. Plenty of ordinary Conservative members would back the idea.

Yes I am perfectly aware that they aren't just MPs but by recent events can we we really trust that they won't back the idea. But Conservative Members Don't have an enormous power (except currently with this completely unfair system of leaders and then Prime ministers) especially if Labour decide to

 

[DanNCL]

Yes I am perfectly aware that they aren't just MPs but by recent events can we we really trust that they won't back the idea. But Conservative Members Don't have an enormous power (except currently with this completely unfair system of leaders and then Prime ministers) especially if Labour decide to

What I meant was the Tory members who would back such an idea aren’t the ones that sit as MPs. I personally know several such Tory members.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I wonder if the workforce would prefer to work for their current management or the Tory government...

Between the devil and the deep blue sea (just not sure which is which)