Are you entitled to keeping your ticket when exiting barriered stations?

[trenopendo]

I guess the title is self-explanatory My employer has recently started strongly encouraging us to keep receipts and the actual tickets when processing expenses claims.

Putting this (rather odd) move aside, I wonder whether staff at barriered stations will happily let you pass through if you show them the ticket and explain the situation? And if they don't, who would be in the right? I'd need staff assistance, as otherwise, the machine keeps it.

Thanks!

 

[ainsworth74]

I've never been refused when showing a ticket and saying "I need to keep my ticket" to barrier staff who immediately open the barrier without further comment. Very very occasionally they might take the ticket to mark it as used but usually they just open a barrier and let me walk through.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Perhaps someone has been on the fiddle?

 

[jamiearmley]

You are absolutely entitled to keep your ticket. Staff may endorse it as used, and indeed should do so.

If this were not the case, how would one make a delay repay claim?

Management accountants make employers do odd things at times. Nature of the beast im afraid.

 

[AndyMike]

I have only once experienced a gate-line security person - a private contractor, not railway staff - who tried to prevent me keeping a ticket for expenses purposes. It was at Wimbledon only a few months ago. He claimed all tickets are “the property of the railway” and was willing to have quite an argument about it. When I eventually persuaded him to retrieve it from the machine - he’d taken the ticket from me and put it in the slot - he then dropped all the used tickets over the floor, and I felt life was too short to take it any further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are absolutely entitled to keep your ticket. Staff may endorse it as used, and indeed should do so.

If this were not the case, how would one make a delay repay claim?

Management accountants make employers do odd things at times. Nature of the beast im afraid.

You're actually not so entitled if there wasn't a delay, though it is hard to prove it and a bit "de minimis" now e-tickets are a thing.

 

[DelW]

I've quite often asked to keep tickets, sometimes for delay claims but otherwise just as a record of my travels. I don't think I've ever had the request queried, let alone refused.

 

[station_road]

Management accountants make employers do odd things at times. Nature of the beast im afraid.

It's not unusual at all - I've been involved in a number of cases where people have bought tickets and got a receipt, claimed back on expenses from the receipt and then refunded the ticket and kept the money. Having the actual ticket is one way to help make this more difficult.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have only once experienced a gate-line security person - a private contractor, not railway staff - who tried to prevent me keeping a ticket for expenses purposes. It was at Wimbledon only a few months ago. He claimed all tickets are “the property of the railway” and was willing to have quite an argument about it. When I eventually persuaded him to retrieve it from the machine - he’d taken the ticket from me and put it in the slot - he then dropped all the used tickets over the floor, and I felt life was too short to take it any further.

Almost certain the bit in bold is technically correct - all tickets do remain property of the railway.

 

[PeterC]

Almost certain the bit in bold is technically correct - all tickets do remain property of the railway.

I was about to ask if that had changed as I remember seeing it in BR days

 

[njr001]

I've never had it refused to retain a ticket. However once at Cardiff Central nobody on gateline and had to insert ticket to exit, then found a member of staff who opened up gateline ticket collection box and could not find ticket so was given all the tickets take away in a bag and locate ticket at my leisure. Amongst them found one ticket which had been endorsed to travel on a later service due to the surfboard the passenger was carrying with them.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In the olden days collected tickets were sent back to railway HQ for accounting purposes. Read the Dorothy Sayers mystery "Five Red Herrings", set in the 1930s where a false alibi relies on the suspect's ticket being made available to the police by the staff at Glasgow St Enoch.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

For expenses accounting purposes, would not the receipt of purchase (not the ticket itself) actually be the more appropriate document to retain? As the ticket card is usually no longer the only proof of purchase. That would be like requiring you to present the actual sandwich rather than the receipt for it, when claiming food expenses!

 

[Bletchleyite]

For expenses accounting purposes, would not the receipt of purchase (not the ticket itself) actually be the more appropriate document to retain? As the ticket card is usually no longer the only proof of purchase. That would be like requiring you to present the actual sandwich rather than the receipt for it, when claiming food expenses!

I am guessing the fraud they want to prevent is buying and claiming an overpriced Anytime and then refunding it and buying Advances or driving. But that's a sign of a poor expenses policy anyway - if Advances are available and relevant they should be used to start with, so questions should be asked of anyone buying one of the outrageously priced Anytimes too often to start with.

 

[Hadders]

I’ve never been prevented from keeping a ticket whenever I’ve asked.

The subject of tickets and expenses regularly crops up on here. What I genuinely don’t understand is why people dealing with expenses tend to require a higher level of proof when it comes to rail travel compared to other forms of transport, and indeed other types of expenses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve never been prevented from keeping a ticket whenever I’ve asked.

The subject of tickets and expenses regularly crops up on here. What I genuinely don’t understand is why people dealing with expenses tend to require a higher level of proof when it comes to rail travel compared to other forms of transport, and indeed other types of expenses.

Because you can't buy a restaurant meal, refund it then go to Maccies, whereas you can buy an Anytime, refund it, book a cheaper form of travel and pocket the difference.

 

[muz379]

It is a fairly common accounting practice to require tickets for rail fare expenses claims.

The threads that pop up on this from time to time usually conclude that 99% of the time staff at gatelines are happy to open gateline for you to retain ticket for expenses purposes if politely explained to them .

Someone comes along with the one time a staff member made it difficult for them , which given the railway is staffed by humans is bound to happen .

Then we all just conclude that you are fine to request keeping tickets and majority of the time will be assisted to do so by having gates opened for you .

 

[Hadders]

Because you can't buy a restaurant meal, refund it then go to Maccies, whereas you can buy an Anytime, refund it, book a cheaper form of travel and pocket the difference.

Mileage claims are wide open to abuse. Also some companies will reimburse car parking and road tolls without a receipt yet want a train ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mileage claims are wide open to abuse.

They are, but that isn't fixable, whereas the rail dodge is, so why would a prudent accountant not?

Also some companies will reimburse car parking and road tolls without a receipt yet want a train ticket.

Silly policies which they could do with changing! Any non receipted expense should have questions asked about it particularly if done too often.

 

[AY1975]

You are absolutely entitled to keep your ticket. Staff may endorse it as used, and indeed should do so.

If this were not the case, how would one make a delay repay claim?

I suppose it might be an idea to take a picture of your ticket so that you have that as evidence in case you get a member of gateline staff who refuses to let you keep it.

In the olden days collected tickets were sent back to railway HQ for accounting purposes.

I believe that that was the case until the introduction of APTIS and (S)PORTIS ticket issuing machines in the 1980s, which I guess paved the way for BR to change to open stations.

 

[mike57]

I think that the whole issue from the companies perspective is trying to stay on the right side of the HMRC with respect to expenses re-imbursement. Unfortunately a lot of this is down to 'interpretation' which is not ideal as different companies have a different take on it, and then a lot impose their own extra rules on top. As I work remotely now all expenses are submitted by means of scans/electronically anyway, and when I buy an e or m ticket I submit the receipt from the purchase that I receive by email. This hasn't caused a problem

I have only twice had a problem in retaining ticket before everything went online, once at St Neots where the exit barrier retained my ticket, and there were no staff around, I had the return half, submitted that and got paid, and once at Manchester Piccadilly where I had an argument but got to keep my ticket.

Over nearly 50 years in industry I have found that the companies where the expense policy has been rigid, and more importantly, where legitimate claims are regularly refused actually have the worst rates of expenses fraud. Certainly I will not be left out of pocket if performing legitimate company business, and over the years have taken steps to ensure that I do not end up out of pocket on occasions where legitimate claims have been refused. Once people start making claims which ensure they are not out of pocket (morally correct, legally incorrect) its a small step for some to make totally fraudulent claims to make a profit. However try explaining that to a bone headed accountant who thinks he is saving money.

Ticket offices used to issue a receipt if requested, I don't know if that still applies, I can remember in my early days at work (mid - late 70s) you would get a hand written receipt with your small cardboard ticket for expenses if you asked.

 

[Ediswan]

Almost certain the bit in bold is technically correct - all tickets do remain property of the railway.

That clause existed in the previous Conditions of Carriage. It does not exist in the current Conditions of Travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That clause existed in the previous Conditions of Carriage. It does not exist in the current Conditions of Travel.

It'll become irrelevant soon enough once all tickets are e-tickets wherever they are bought from - they can be deactivated if used to exit at the destination on the ticket, but they can't physically be retained.

 

[lookapigeon]

I have never understood why they don't do as every other country, rather than eat the ticket, the gate just endorses it with some print so it can't be easily reused again, and returned to you for you to do as you so please. And so it leaves it for the passenger to do what they like, expense it for work, stick it in their scrapbook/diary etc.

The railway hasn't helped itself either - I have noticed a lot of receipts now from the window are really ambiguous, they do not show little detail other than "ticket" as the description and then the amount paid!

Prreviously the ones from the window were much more detailed, showing the type of ticket bought, destinatination, number and would satisfy the most anal of accounts departments.

Looks like SWR/Southern brought in some new ticket software and also hardware too, skimping on the auto cutting facility for the receipt. I don't think I have seen a receipt printer that hasn't had one for years so it is really strange seeing staff tear it by hand.

 

[Birmingham]

I have never understood why they don't do as every other country, rather than eat the ticket, the gate just endorses it with some print so it can't be easily reused again, and returned to you for you to do as you so please. And so it leaves it for the passenger to do what they like, expense it for work, stick it in their scrapbook/diary etc.

It sounds very expensive to add that machinery to every gateline on the network and besides, that kind of ticket is on its way out. The modern-day solution is as @Bletchleyite described above.

I can imagine returning all tickets would also generate substantial litter from certain types of passengers who don’t care to retain their tickets (this can already be seen around busy town/city stations which don’t have gatelines).

 

[XAM2175]

I have never understood why they don't do as every other country, rather than eat the ticket, the gate just endorses it with some print so it can't be easily reused again, and returned to you for you to do as you so please. And so it leaves it for the passenger to do what they like, expense it for work, stick it in their scrapbook/diary etc.

It sounds very expensive to add that machinery to every gateline on the network and besides, that kind of ticket is on its way out. The modern-day solution is as @Bletchleyite described above.

I can imagine returning all tickets would also generate substantial litter from certain types of passengers who don’t care to retain their tickets (this can already be seen around busy town/city stations which don’t have gatelines).

You obviously wouldn't do it now, but it would have been a reasonable choice to make when specifying the gates years and years ago, and especially so after tickets changed to thermal printing. Having the entry barrier, or validator at open stations, print the date and time of initial entry would have lessened the need for tickets to be marked by a guard/conductor whilst en route and significantly reduced the need to retain them at the end of the journey.

Then again, quite a few operators abroad skipped ticket-retaining gates even when not using validation printers, because always-return gates are less complex mechanically and don't need to have their bins emptied.

Anyway, it's all moot nowadays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is certainly possible as a technology - the gates on the Barcelona Metro do it. But yes, no point now, magstripe readers will be gone within 5-10 years, probably tending towards 5.

 

[T-Karmel]

Years ago when I used to regularly fly out from Luton I was buying tickets at the station from which magstripe was unreadable (I guess) and tickets were always rejected at both St Pancras and Luton Airport Parkway. Being used to that, I was walking straight to the wide gate and showing my ticket to gateline staff. And there was that one guy at Luton Airport Parkway that was always violently taking the ticket from my hand saying "You won't need that anymore". Other than him I never had been stopped from keeping the ticket if I needed it.

 

[station_road]

I have never understood why they don't do as every other country, rather than eat the ticket, the gate just endorses it with some print so it can't be easily reused again, and returned to you for you to do as you so please. And so it leaves it for the passenger to do what they like, expense it for work, stick it in their scrapbook/diary etc.

The railway hasn't helped itself either - I have noticed a lot of receipts now from the window are really ambiguous, they do not show little detail other than "ticket" as the description and then the amount paid!

Prreviously the ones from the window were much more detailed, showing the type of ticket bought, destinatination, number and would satisfy the most anal of accounts departments.

Looks like SWR/Southern brought in some new ticket software and also hardware too, skimping on the auto cutting facility for the receipt. I don't think I have seen a receipt printer that hasn't had one for years so it is really strange seeing staff tear it by hand.

Every other country? Which main line railways do that, I can't think of any which avoid the issue of someone buying a ticket and getting a receipt, then getting a refund on the ticket but claiming back the recept. The most detailed receipt also won't help in that case.

This isn't just people then buying cheaper tickets, it's people making up journeys they have never made. In large companies, it can be depressingly common and I have personally been involved in cases where people have fraudulently claimed thousands of pounds and been dismissed for it

 

[yorkie]

I guess the title is self-explanatory My employer has recently started strongly encouraging us to keep receipts and the actual tickets when processing expenses claims.

The solution is to obtain e-tickets, where available. More flows are being e-ticket enabled all the time. These can optionally be printed, or can be shown on any device that is capable of displaying PDF files.

If you must use a paper ticket, take a photograph of the ticket before you travel as usually a photo will suffice for expense claims.

I've claimed expenses from numerous organisations and have never ever had to produce a physical ticket. Before e-tickets became a thing, I took photos before travel. These days I usually use e-tickets which makes the process really easy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

I have never understood why they don't do as every other country, rather than eat the ticket, the gate just endorses it with some print so it can't be easily reused again, and returned to you for you to do as you so please.

I've not been to a country which does that, as far as I can recall.

When I visited the US, on some journeys tickets were taken from us, even when on the train (where no exit barriers were present).