Is the use of cash dying out?

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say Oyster sped it up massively, contactless slowed it slightly (as it's a few centiseconds slower to process), and phones (pre the new iPhone "no unlock" transit mode) slowed it down again due to faffing.

In a cinema you can stand aside, though, on a bus you're delaying it.

 

[duncanp]

I'd say Oyster sped it up massively, contactless slowed it slightly (as it's a few centiseconds slower to process), and phones (pre the new iPhone "no unlock" transit mode) slowed it down again due to faffing.

In a cinema you can stand aside, though, on a bus you're delaying it.

People fumbling around for their Oyster card or contactless card can delay the bus just as much as those fumbling around for notes and coins.

And then there are the times when the card doesn't connect with the reader properly, so that people have to tap it on the reader more than once.

Similarly with phones, if you are waiting at a bus stop and intend paying with your phone, or using an M-ticket, have the phone ready to tap on the reader, or the relevant app open and M-ticket activated.

 

[Runningaround]

The main one now seems to be tight budgets due to rising costs. If you draw £100 out of an ATM then you can see what you have left in your wallet, and clearly stop when your limit is reached. Much harder to keep tabs on contactless spending of multiple small purchases if don’t want to exceed an amount to spend.

If you had £97 you won't be able to access that final £3 from an ATM, but with that same card you can go and buy £3 worth of groceries.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Probably wouldn't be too hard to put their Paypal email address or sort code and account number on the notice so you could pay electronically if you wished. Just another form of honesty box, and as a bonus not one where someone can nick the proceeds.

Although, once again there is a difference between what most of the population consider normal and the daily reality for many of us.

I’m not sure if it’s a north/south or rural/suburban thing, or maybe a mixture of both, but what seems logical and simple to yourself and others is actually not in the real world.

I currently buy eggs from my next door neighbours son who has about a dozen chickens in his parents garden. He is only 10 and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have a PayPal or bank account. But, if he did, I would be able to take a half dozen eggs when needed, come back to my sitting room and make a payment. However, a passer by who wanted eggs would be stuck when it came to payment as, despite being only 2 miles from the nearest mast, we are in a not-spot and there is almost no mobile signal.

This is not unusual in many of the small villages in Cumbria and probably other areas also. The majority of the country sees fast 4g/5g and broadband as the norm but for significant numbers that’s not the case. My minimum guaranteed broadband speed is 5Meg but houses a few hundred yards away are on 1Meg max.

 

[Runningaround]

Cash will never die out because it is the lowest common denominator. When all else fails (i.e the electricity supply) it'll still be there, at least for those wise enough to still deal with it. For avoidance of argument, batteries run out of power and require replacing, where available, or to be topped up by an electricity supply, so I'm talking about the non-availability of it over a prolonged period.

It's just luck then if you got enough cash before the supply to ATM went, but as the all the Tills failed as you'd be knackered with that same electricity cut too and in the case of the ATM just hope it isn't at the weekend as you'll still be waiting for it to be fixed on Monday morning.
They'll be running off the same supply as the card machine although that might have a backup battery like a phone in which case you can use your card. And with a phone you could still call up for a delivery and pay online.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's just luck then if you got enough cash before the supply to ATM went, but as the all the Tills failed as you'd be knackered with that same electricity cut too and in the case of the ATM just hope it isn't at the weekend as you'll still be waiting for it to be fixed on Monday morning.
They'll be running off the same supply as the card machine although that might have a backup battery like a phone in which case you can use your card. And with a phone you could still call up for a delivery and pay online.

All the major supermarkets have backup generators to keep (major) things going for at least 48 hours, so the tills will be fine. They'll turn off some non-vitals like ATM and a third of the lighting and possibly bakery ovens. But computers, tills, fridges some lights and freezers will keep going.
I've no idea if banks have generators to keep their ATMs going, but they do have them to keep the main computers going so supermarkets tills can still process!

 

[Ediswan]

Last weekend, I visited 'Northampton Active' (previously Nene Whitewater Centre). A bit of everything.

All session bookings online, so card.
One-time £1 membership fee, cash strongly preferred, 'because of the fees' (their words).
Main cafe, card preferred, but still take cash (some change in the till would have helped).
Outside cafe, card only.

 

[DelayRepay]

I currently buy eggs from my next door neighbours son who has about a dozen chickens in his parents garden. He is only 10 and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have a PayPal or bank account. But, if he did, I would be able to take a half dozen eggs when needed, come back to my sitting room and make a payment. However, a passer by who wanted eggs would be stuck when it came to payment as, despite being only 2 miles from the nearest mast, we are in a not-spot and there is almost no mobile signal.

I live in a village although I don't think we're as rural as you are, and in the last few years we've expanded due to the farmers selling their land for housebuilding. One of my neighbours is a bee keeper who sells honey from their doorstep. It used to be an honesty box, but now she also accepts payments by PayPal. She has a little sign up and also mentions it when she posts on Facebook that more honey is available. You have to pay after collection though as it's never certain whether there will be any left.

All the major supermarkets have backup generators to keep (major) things going for at least 48 hours, so the tills will be fine. They'll turn off some non-vitals like ATM and a third of the lighting and possibly bakery ovens. But computers, tills, fridges some lights and freezers will keep going.
I've no idea if banks have generators to keep their ATMs going, but they do have them to keep the main computers going so supermarkets tills can still process!

I used to work in a supermarket and the only backup power we had was emergency lighting (for safety reasons) and to keep the chillers running for a short period. When our checkouts failed, we had to close the store. For those customers already in the store, we had to agree the price of their shopping based on their estimate. Payment could be taken in cash, or by taking a manual imprint of their credit card backed up by a phone call for authorisation if over a certain value.

I've no idea if banks have generators to keep their ATMs going, but they do have them to keep the main computers going so supermarkets tills can still process!

We don't have generators to power ATMs (I work for a bank now). The data centre where transactions are processed has multiple backup power sources (and there is more than one data centre). But individual ATMs would not work until power was restored. We do however have a contract with a third party company to attend to ATM faults that occur when the branches are closed.

In any case, it's likely if there was a widespread unplanned power outage for >24 hours, we'd see a run on the banks if people could withdraw cash. But even if they managed to get hold of cash, they wouldn't be spending it in the supermarket as it would have been looted by then.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I live in a village although I don't think we're as rural as you are, and in the last few years we've expanded due to the farmers selling their land for housebuilding. One of my neighbours is a bee keeper who sells honey from their doorstep. It used to be an honesty box, but now she also accepts payments by PayPal. She has a little sign up and also mentions it when she posts on Facebook that more honey is available. You have to pay after collection though as it's never certain whether there will be any left.


I used to work in a supermarket and the only backup power we had was emergency lighting (for safety reasons) and to keep the chillers running for a short period. When our checkouts failed, we had to close the store. For those customers already in the store, we had to agree the price of their shopping based on their estimate. Payment could be taken in cash, or by taking a manual imprint of their credit card backed up by a phone call for authorisation if over a certain value.


We don't have generators to power ATMs (I work for a bank now). The data centre where transactions are processed has multiple backup power sources (and there is more than one data centre). But individual ATMs would not work until power was restored. We do however have a contract with a third party company to attend to ATM faults that occur when the branches are closed.

In any case, it's likely if there was a widespread unplanned power outage for >24 hours, we'd see a run on the banks if people could withdraw cash. But even if they managed to get hold of cash, they wouldn't be spending it in the supermarket as it would have been looted by then.

It was clearly some years ago you worked in a supermarket! Nowadays the computer system is seen as a vital.
But basically the world would carry on for card payments but stop for people needing to get cash out.

 

[DelayRepay]

It was clearly some years ago you worked in a supermarket! Nowadays the computer system is seen as a vital.
But basically the world would carry on for card payments but stop for people needing to get cash out.

I don't think the world would carry on, if there was a long electricity outage. Even if card payments still worked, there would be so much other disruption that it could lead to civil unrest. There would be chaos on the roads (no traffic lights or streetlights), some people could not cook food, many shops and other services such as GPs would have to close. If supermarkets could continue, we would likely see panic buying and stock shortages, as we did at the start of Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although, once again there is a difference between what most of the population consider normal and the daily reality for many of us.

I’m not sure if it’s a north/south or rural/suburban thing, or maybe a mixture of both, but what seems logical and simple to yourself and others is actually not in the real world.

It may well be both - certainly London is very anti cash now, with many places simply no longer taking it. Plus that my father was a bank manager.

I currently buy eggs from my next door neighbours son who has about a dozen chickens in his parents garden. He is only 10 and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have a PayPal or bank account.

My three year old nephew (who lives in the North West) has a bank account, his pocket money is on a standing order. It would never occur to me that they would not have these days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2022 ==

I don't think the world would carry on, if there was a long electricity outage. Even if card payments still worked, there would be so much other disruption that it could lead to civil unrest. There would be chaos on the roads (no traffic lights or streetlights), some people could not cook food, many shops and other services such as GPs would have to close. If supermarkets could continue, we would likely see panic buying and stock shortages, as we did at the start of Covid.

A very long term electricity outage would be a serious problem, yes. It has happened in recent years - one that springs to mind is Lancaster during flooding a few years back. But as putting batteries in things is so easy now, why not have batteries in your tills and backup wifi so you can keep your shop open for at least a few hours?

 

[DelayRepay]

My three year old nephew (who lives in the North West) has a bank account, his pocket money is on a standing order. It would never occur to me that they would not have these days.

My niece and nephew (4 and 7) who live in Yorkshire both have bank accounts. They're savings accounts operated by their parents. No cards, money is transferred to a parent's account when needed. These accounts are mainly used to collect Christmas and Birthday money. If the kids are given cash, a parent will pocket the cash and transfer the same amount into the kids' accounts.

A very long term electricity outage would be a serious problem, yes. It has happened in recent years - one that springs to mind is Lancaster during flooding a few years back. But as putting batteries in things is so easy now, why not have batteries in your tills and backup wifi so you can keep your shop open for at least a few hours?

An outage of a few hours is unlikely to lead to major problems. It's probably one going over 24 hours that would cause serious issues, and batteries are unlikely to last. Even generators need topping up with diesel at some point which would no doubt lead to a shortage as large companies try to keep their offices and data centres operational. I imagine the government would have to restrict diesel to essential users (generators at hospitals, as an example).

Also batteries cannot really power fridges so a lot of goods would be unavailable anyway.

 

[Dai Corner]

An outage of a few hours is unlikely to lead to major problems. It's probably one going over 24 hours that would cause serious issues, and batteries are unlikely to last. Even generators need topping up with diesel at some point which would no doubt lead to a shortage as large companies try to keep their offices and data centres operational. I imagine the government would have to restrict diesel to essential users (generators at hospitals, as an example).

I imagine losing communications links might be a more serious problem, leaving no way to authorise card payments in shops or cash withdrawals at ATMs. Excavator cutting through the fibre to a major store or retail park, for example. I doubt if (m)any have diverse connections.

Also batteries cannot really power fridges so a lot of goods would be unavailable anyway

Why not? Does the battery/inverter know what it's powering or the fridge know what's powering it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A total grid failure is unlikely and would likely lead to breakdown of society.

More likely is a relatively local multi day outage as happened in Lancaster, so getting diesel for generators would not be so much of an issue.

As for fridges it's more the power consumption - camper vans for example tend to have gas fridges (hard to get your head around how they work, but they do!) as batteries can't keep one going for long. But supermarkets have more issues because fridges and freezers tend not to have doors on them, which is such a waste of energy that it should be a legal requirement.

 

[Deafdoggie]

My niece and nephew (4 and 7) who live in Yorkshire both have bank accounts. They're savings accounts operated by their parents. No cards, money is transferred to a parent's account when needed. These accounts are mainly used to collect Christmas and Birthday money. If the kids are given cash, a parent will pocket the cash and transfer the same amount into the kids' accounts.


An outage of a few hours is unlikely to lead to major problems. It's probably one going over 24 hours that would cause serious issues, and batteries are unlikely to last. Even generators need topping up with diesel at some point which would no doubt lead to a shortage as large companies try to keep their offices and data centres operational. I imagine the government would have to restrict diesel to essential users (generators at hospitals, as an example).

Also batteries cannot really power fridges so a lot of goods would be unavailable anyway.

We had a power outage for a few hours when I worked at a supermarket. Fortunately we had our own petrol station so we're able to get diesel easily!

 

[Trackman]

They may want the cash to pay staff and suppliers and appear to be be below the VAT threshold?

More profit too, The prices will be adjusted to include the Just Eat (or whoever) commission of 14%.

 

[Deafdoggie]

More profit too, The prices will be adjusted to include the Just Eat (or whoever) commission of 14%.

That's not profit, it's being used to pay Just Eat. It'll increase turnover, but not profit.

 

[XAM2175]

I'd say Oyster sped it up massively, contactless slowed it slightly (as it's a few centiseconds slower to process), and phones (pre the new iPhone "no unlock" transit mode) slowed it down again due to faffing.

People fumbling around for their Oyster card or contactless card can delay the bus just as much as those fumbling around for notes and coins.

And then there are the times when the card doesn't connect with the reader properly, so that people have to tap it on the reader more than once.

Crucially though, Oyster removed the tedious negotiation involved in actually selling the ticket. The only times cash could get anywhere near to that speed was when it was the exact amount and in the fewest possible number of coins.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crucially though, Oyster removed the tedious negotiation involved in actually selling the ticket. The only times cash could get anywhere near to that speed was when it was the exact amount and in the fewest possible number of coins.

And the fact that other bus companies haven't been bothered to remove that discussion is why contactless hasn't sped up operation outside London.

I see Burnham has got his 2 quid thing through. Let's hope this means a move to tap in only flat fares everywhere.

 

[johncrossley]

And the fact that other bus companies haven't been bothered to remove that discussion is why contactless hasn't sped up operation outside London.

But when you complain about the time-wasting conversations with the driver on the Buses forum, as you often do, the forum regulars don't consider it a major problem, or instead change subject to the lack of bus priority or some other reason (excuse) unrelated to boarding times. As if talking to the driver is sacrosanct, regardless of the effect on the service and therefore its attractiveness.

 

[S&CLER]

I was surprised to be told by a taxi driver, before boarding, that his black cab was cash only. Fortunately I had £17 in £1 coins on me, the last remnant of a large sum in cash which I had received a week or two ago, and which I have been spending to get rid of; and I knew the fare was between £15 and £16, so it worked out quite well. He was glad of the change. It's back to contactless for everything except tips and the weekly Walking Club/Ramblers coach fare now, though maybe I should keep a couple of £10 notes as an emergency float. Tips usually require coins of course, unless you're feeling unusually generous. I recall a place in Turkey( I think it was in Canakkale) which quoted a price of $1 or £5 for whatever it was they sold - not a case of anti-British discrimination, but because that was the smallest note in each currency, and foreign coins were not worth handling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But when you complain about the time-wasting conversations with the driver on the Buses forum, as you often do, the forum regulars don't consider it a major problem, or instead change subject to the lack of bus priority or some other reason (excuse) unrelated to boarding times. As if talking to the driver is sacrosanct, regardless of the effect on the service and therefore its attractiveness.

Many people in the Buses forum have connections to the industry, which is grossly conservative and won't even look at issues their policies create, even if those issues are actually costing them money by increasing the number of vehicles running a given route. It used to take 15-20 minutes to fully board a Magic Bus at Manchester Piccadilly Gardens, so given the nature of that route it must have been 2 or even 3 additional vehicles that this required. By contrast the similar Hamburg route 102 used open boarding, three door bendies and could board a full standing load within about 30 seconds.

 

[DC1989]

I was surprised to be told by a taxi driver, before boarding, that his black cab was cash only.

I was told this once. I said okay and once I arrived home said oops my mistake I don't have any cash

He's card machine miraculously started working again after that

 

[XAM2175]

Many people in the Buses forum have connections to the industry, which is grossly conservative and won't even look at issues their policies create

It's genuinely absurd, sometimes.

 

[Trackman]

That's not profit, it's being used to pay Just Eat. It'll increase turnover, but not profit.

Unless they are paying cash in the takeaway.. no commission.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was surprised to be told by a taxi driver, before boarding, that his black cab was cash only. Fortunately I had £17 in £1 coins on me, the last remnant of a large sum in cash which I had received a week or two ago, and which I have been spending to get rid of; and I knew the fare was between £15 and £16, so it worked out quite well. He was glad of the change.

Depending on where and when this was, it is likely the driver should not have been taking fares if his card machine wasn't working. So either he was lying to you (likely) or he was operating illegally (still pretty likely in my experience).

 

[Deafdoggie]

Unless they are paying cash in the takeaway.. no commission.

A lot of takeaways only charge the markup on the online orders to remain competitive on the high street. In person orders are usually the price without the commission added.

 

[tomuk]

UK cashless society a step closer as more than 23m people abandon coins

Report predicts cash will account for just 6% of payments within decade, prompting fears millions will be left behind

www.theguardian.com

More than 23 million people in the UK used virtually no cash last year, while notes and coins will account for just 6% of payments within a decade, a report predicts.

 

[DelayRepay]

I imagine losing communications links might be a more serious problem, leaving no way to authorise card payments in shops or cash withdrawals at ATMs. Excavator cutting through the fibre to a major store or retail park, for example. I doubt if (m)any have diverse connections.

That's likely to be fairly localised though - shouldn't be too difficult for people to find a shop or ATM that's not affected.

I was thinking more of a wider network problem that affects a whole city/county or worse most of the country.

 

[MikeWM]

UK cashless society a step closer as more than 23m people abandon coins

Report predicts cash will account for just 6% of payments within decade, prompting fears millions will be left behind

www.theguardian.com

Though conversely there is this article, also in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...e-ditching-cards-in-the-cost-of-living-crisis

With inflation raging and real wages falling, more and more of us are taking an old-school approach to staying on top of spending. Suddenly coins and notes are back in favour
...
In 2020, researchers from Warwick business school analysed more than 300m transactions from 260,000 consumers and found that people with contactless cards spent “significantly more” than those without. Contactless spenders were also more likely to be charged overdraft fees and made more purchases overall. The researchers concluded that contactless: “promotes increased spending and can promote decreased cash usage and increased use of debt.”