Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Big Jumby 74]

Many moons ago FF use to be 5k for unit 1, then 1k unit 2 onwards IIRC, but obviously things may have changed in more recent times?

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458s are definitely needed for the foreseeable future

Yes, but where.... had no wish to disillusion anyone with set ideas about their future..... and to reinforce my earlier point, I genuinely have no inside knowledge at all - just call it my Leroy Jeffroy Gibbs, having kept an eye on past events in a historical sense!

 

[Elorith]

Many moons ago FF use to be 5k for unit 1, then 1k unit 2 onwards IIRC, but obviously things may have changed in more recent times?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==


Yes, but where.... had no wish to disillusion anyone with set ideas about their future..... and to reinforce my earlier point, I genuinely have no inside knowledge at all - just call it my Leroy Jeffroy Gibbs, having kept an eye on past events in a historical sense!

Windsor side of the metro for the short platforms on those routes as 455s have no ASDO

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Windsor side of the metro for the short platforms on those routes as 455s have no ASDO

Makes best overall business sense possibly in the current climate, I would wager!

 

[Monty]

Funny then how other TOCs manage to use 345s, 710s and 720s intensively day-in, day-out.

Well let me me put it to you another way, how do you feel comfortable travelling on a train with a known fault? A fault serious enough that fitters and other depot staff have been warned not to walk past these units as there is a risk of a fatal injury. How do you feel knowing they are keeping them in service despite not knowing the underlying cause?

 

[Goldfish62]

Well let me me put it to you another way, do you feel comfortable travelling on a train with a known fault? A fault serious enough that fitters and other depot staff have been warned not to walk past these units as there is a risk of a fatal injury. How do you feel knowing they are keeping them in service despite not knowing the underlying cause?

Fine by me. I travel on Aventras regularly.

I think you're grossly exaggerating the situation. If it was as serious as you allege then it wouldn't matter if some TOCs were left with no trains. They'd be grounded. Furthermore if they weren't then the unions would black them anyway.

 

[spark001uk]

Today's 5Q52 is booked to Southampton via PDL / Cosham and back, for anyone interested.

5Q52 1724 Staines Up Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Fine by me. I travel on Aventras regularly.

I think you're grossly exaggerating the situation. If it was as serious as you allege then it wouldn't matter if some TOCs were left with no trains. They'd be grounded. Furthermore if they weren't then the unions would black them anyway.

Indeed the the 303's were all withdrawn from service in the early 60's after a spate of failures and that was in an era where risk acceptance was on a different scale to today. The traction inverters are the same on the 345/710/720 which continue in traffic day in day out. Beefing up the covers is a perfectly reasonable measure all electrical equipment especially when its enclosed has a huge risk of a pressure explosion when a fault occurs. The issue here is the design has failed to engineer an appropriate solution from the outset but Alstom have recognised the weakness in the design (by Bombardier) and have a solution.

 

[RuddA]

701 038 was on test at Southampton this evening. Until I had seen this one in the flesh I hadn't appreciated how much shorter the cab is compared to a 720.

 

[Towers]

I wonder if we'll see any 455s making it into the paintshops?

 

[pompeyfan]

It's been said that no driver training has yet taken place - but does SWR have or intend to have a 701 driving simulator to speed the training?

There are 2 701 sims at Clapham Yard, although it’s alleged even those fell short on a risk assessment (something to do with emergency exits)

There are two elements to driver training
1) Route learning (irrelevant, as drivers already do these routes)
2) Type Conversion

The majority of the suburban drivers have already had to learn 707s, and in recent times many 450s have been used on suburban services (a new type to inner suburban drivers).

The big question is if managed to find time to do the 450 conversion, why have they not found time do do a 701 conversion.

Does anyone know how long the training is for a driver who is passed on 707s, basically learning detail changes, not doing a major conversion from say a diesel loco to an EMU where everything is different.

As a base, I believe when drivers learnt 442s again, it was 2 days on depot (show me, tell me and fault finding) and 3 days practical handling.

The 701s could be quicker as they’re a single Power Brake Controller so in that respect not too disimilar from 707s and 450s, however they are likely to be the first trains that the drivers do DOO dispatch, and so will need to learn how to deal with and check the PTI, which may well be another 2 days of classroom based activities.

 

[spark001uk]

There are 2 701 sims at Clapham Yard, although it’s alleged even those fell short on a risk assessment (something to do with emergency exits)

What's that for, quick exit if a capacitor in the sim's power supply blows up?

 

[SolomonSouth]

The 707 lease ends this month. Will they go to Southeastern or will they still be needed as 701s still are not in service?

 

[Bigfoot]

There are 2 701 sims at Clapham Yard, although it’s alleged even those fell short on a risk assessment (something to do with emergency exits)



As a base, I believe when drivers learnt 442s again, it was 2 days on depot (show me, tell me and fault finding) and 3 days practical handling.

The 701s could be quicker as they’re a single Power Brake Controller so in that respect not too disimilar from 707s and 450s, however they are likely to be the first trains that the drivers do DOO dispatch, and so will need to learn how to deal with and check the PTI, which may well be another 2 days of classroom based activities.

There were many issues found with the classroom and sims, one was to do with fire doors and exits.

It is my understanding that it is planned to be a a 2 week course. Depot/classroom/simulator and practical handling/ training for a dco environment. Although who knows what will actually occur.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed the the 303's were all withdrawn from service in the early 60's after a spate of failures and that was in an era where risk acceptance was on a different scale to today. The traction inverters are the same on the 345/710/720 which continue in traffic day in day out. Beefing up the covers is a perfectly reasonable measure all electrical equipment especially when its enclosed has a huge risk of a pressure explosion when a fault occurs. The issue here is the design has failed to engineer an appropriate solution from the outset but Alstom have recognised the weakness in the design (by Bombardier) and have a solution.

Perfectly put!

I think one of the things is that some people for their own personal reasons never want to see the 701s enter service (but have no suggested Plan B) and will grasp at anything that appears to prevent them from doing so.

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I wonder if we'll see any 455s making it into the paintshops?

They were repainted not so long ago so most unlikely I'd have thought.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Except they're out on the network regularly for testing and mileage accumulation.

Thanks for the correction. Have ASLEF accepted them then ?
Seems to be mixed messages here

 

[TEW]

Thanks for the correction. Have ASLEF accepted them then ?
Seems to be mixed messages here

No, the testing is being done by GBRF.

 

[Mollman]

There are 2 701 sims at Clapham Yard, although it’s alleged even those fell short on a risk assessment (something to do with emergency exits)

I first read that as 2 701s at Sims' yard!

 

[InOban]

No, the testing is being done by GBRF.

Whose drivers are also I assume members of ASLEF. So it can only be certain passenger equipment which they are rejecting as unfit for service?

 

[amazon1675]

Dear oh dear. It seems like everyone involved needs an 'incentive' to resolve this long running saga. Are we seriously saying a whole fleet of 60 new trains will be built unfit for use? Are we really saying GRRF drivers are taking their life in their hands each day by driving them? Are we really saying the cost of all this malarkey is acceptable? I seem to recall reading the drivers are already getting an additional sum of money for training/working the 701 units...is that accurate?

This tinderbox will eventually ignite. Reflects well on none of those involved.

 

[Elorith]

Dear oh dear. It seems like everyone involved needs an 'incentive' to resolve this long running saga. Are we seriously saying a whole fleet of 60 new trains will be built unfit for use? Are we really saying GRRF drivers are taking their life in their hands each day by driving them? Are we really saying the cost of all this malarkey is acceptable? I seem to recall reading the drivers are already getting an additional sum of money for training/working the 701 units...is that accurate?

This tinderbox will eventually ignite. Reflects well on none of those involved.

By "incentive", what would you suggest? And no, to my knowledge SWR drivers/ASLEF were never offered any sort of bonus or payrise for specifically working 701s.

 

[Goldfish62]

By "incentive", what would you suggest? And no, to my knowledge SWR drivers/ASLEF were never offered any sort of bonus or payrise for specifically working 701s.

I thought the latest pay deal incorporated DCO operation. The document dealing this was posted somewhere on these forums a year or so ago.

 

[Mike Machin]

With a life-long interest in railways, I find the present situation the Class 701s incredibly sad and frustrating.
As a tax-payer, I am incandescent with rage that such a situation should be allowed to continue. Situations such as this make me think that it is time to cut our losses, drastically slim-down the network for freight only and abandon passenger operations on our railways altogether. The whole situation is beyond ridiculous!

 

[Towers]

I thought the latest pay deal incorporated DCO operation. The document dealing this was posted somewhere on these forums a year or so ago.

A pay deal encompassing the adoption of DCO is hardly the same as an incentive for working a specific class of train which has specific identified issues in need of resolution!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Dear oh dear. It seems like everyone involved needs an 'incentive' to resolve this long running saga. Are we seriously saying a whole fleet of 60 new trains will be built unfit for use? Are we really saying GRRF drivers are taking their life in their hands each day by driving them? Are we really saying the cost of all this malarkey is acceptable? I seem to recall reading the drivers are already getting an additional sum of money for training/working the 701 units...is that accurate?

This tinderbox will eventually ignite. Reflects well on none of those involved.

Of course GBRf drivers aren't taking risks the trains have to comply with a very stringent set of standards and tests to be certified to run on the network even for testing let alone mileage accumulation. As this long running saga (and thread) shows it seems local ASLEF reps have a specific view about them which for my money seems to relate to some long running sore over drivers doing more than just driving the trains in the SW Division. Remember we've had two previous abortive attempts, after vast expenditure, to get DOO in the SW.

I will be delighted to be told im wrong and to be told what the real issue is.

 

[Fincra5]

With a life-long interest in railways, I find the present situation the Class 701s incredibly sad and frustrating.
As a tax-payer, I am incandescent with rage that such a situation should be allowed to continue. Situations such as this make me think that it is time to cut our losses, drastically slim-down the network for freight only and abandon passenger operations on our railways altogether. The whole situation is beyond ridiculous!

So is that idea...

 

[Goldfish62]

A pay deal encompassing the adoption of DCO is hardly the same as an incentive for working a specific class of train which has specific identified issues in need of resolution!

Who said it was?!

 

[Towers]

With a life-long interest in railways, I find the present situation the Class 701s incredibly sad and frustrating.
As a tax-payer, I am incandescent with rage that such a situation should be allowed to continue. Situations such as this make me think that it is time to cut our losses, drastically slim-down the network for freight only and abandon passenger operations on our railways altogether. The whole situation is beyond ridiculous!

Is that to punish the manufacturers or the staff & their unions?!

 

[InOban]

The question some of us would like answered is this. There is a list of issues agreed between the TOC, Alstom, ASLEF and possibly the leasing company. At some point three of these will state that all the issues are sorted to their satisfaction. Does ASLEF hold a veto?

 

[Towers]

The question some of us would like answered is this. There is a list of issues agreed between the TOC, Alstom, ASLEF and possibly the leasing company. At some point three of these will state that all the issues are sorted to their satisfaction. Does ASLEF hold a veto?

Yes, essentially. If they instruct drivers not to drive them, what can anyone else do?

 

[Elorith]

I thought the latest pay deal incorporated DCO operation. The document dealing this was posted somewhere on these forums a year or so ago.

Guards accepted a deal in April of 2021 which had their working week reduced from 5 days to 4.5 days in return for accepting DCO and in which a second member of safety trained staff would remain onboard every passenger service. There were also certain other changes (some of which may or not actually happen now).

I believe DCO (or at least a form of it) has been in the SWR drivers' contract for years, but to this day 100% of the passenger services on the network still operate with traditional guard dispatch. Only a few ECS operate without a guard on board and even then its platform staff who are responsible for dispatch in those cases.