Railcard Fine

[lucasnaz]

Hi, I’ve just received a letter regarding an incident on 21/03 where I could not present my railcard to the inspector at waterloo because the connection was poor, even though I showed it to him after he wrote me a note.

I’ve been charged £100 + the £15.20 fare. Is there anyway to dispute this without going to court?

 

[Dai Corner]

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?​

If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

I'd reply referring to the above and including proof that your railcard was valid on the day of travel. That's assuming it's the first such occasion within a year, of course.

 

[AlterEgo]

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

The OP appears not to have been Penalty Fared or made to buy a new ticket, but instead has been reported for prosecution, against which this policy provides no immunity.

 

[Dai Corner]

The OP appears not to have been Penalty Fared or made to buy a new ticket, but instead has been reported for prosecution, against which this policy provides no immunity.

Perhaps we need some more info from the OP?

What ticket did you present OP? It would be helpful if you could upload a photo/scan of the letter with your personal details removed so we can see exactly what offence you are accused of.

 

[lucasnaz]

The OP appears not to have been Penalty Fared or made to buy a new ticket, but instead has been reported for prosecution, against which this policy provides no immunity.

I was told to buy a new ticket, and continue on, expecting a letter. Which I did but after 6 months I thought they’d moved on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==

Perhaps we need some more info from the OP?

What ticket did you present OP? It would be helpful if you could upload a photo/scan of the letter with your personal details removed so we can see exactly what offence you are accused of.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was told to buy a new ticket, and continue on, expecting a letter. Which I did but after 6 months I thought they’d moved on.

Did you indeed buy a new ticket? If so, when and where? Were you interviewed under caution by the inspector?

 

[lucasnaz]

Did you indeed buy a new ticket? If so, when and where? Were you interviewed under caution by the inspector?

I did buy a new ticket at the station after I was let through with a note.
And yes I was interviewed whilst simultaneously trying to get my railcard up to show

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This will sound as if I'm being intentionally rude: sorry if it comes across like that as that isn't what I'm trying to do!

But what do you mean by 'railcard'? The thing is, there's a particular type of document issued by the railway that's called that (and which you can have digitally on your phone instead). These are called things like the 16-25 railcard, veterans' railcard, two together railcard and so on. As long as you have one of these, and it's in date, and you follow some other rules, you can buy cheap train tickets instead of paying the full fare.

There are also other things that the railway issues which people sometimes call railcards. These include tickets for a journey from A to B, season tickets (which allow you to go from A to B as often as you want for a week or a month or a year and so on) and things like London Travelcards which allow you to go anywhere on the Underground and buses and trains in London for a day or a week and so on. Lots of people call those railcards - but they're not, and they have different rules from 'proper' railcards.

Because the rules are different, we really need to know exactly what you had and what was on your phone that you couldn't show the inspector. So please tell us!

 

[lucasnaz]

I did buy a new ticket at the station after I was let through with a note.
And yes I was interviewed whilst simultaneously trying to get my railcard up to show

The railcard is a 16-25 card and the original fare I paid was £18.30.

 

[AlterEgo]

I did buy a new ticket at the station after I was let through with a note.
And yes I was interviewed whilst simultaneously trying to get my railcard up to show

If you did indeed buy a new ticket as instructed, submit this to the train company. Was the new ticket discounted with a railcard? Have you been in a position to see the inspector's notes? Did they make mention of their instruction to buy a new ticket?

 

[lucasnaz]

This will sound as if I'm being intentionally rude: sorry if it comes across like that as that isn't what I'm trying to do!

But what do you mean by 'railcard'? The thing is, there's a particular type of document issued by the railway that's called that (and which you can have digitally on your phone instead). These are called things like the 16-25 railcard, veterans' railcard, two together railcard and so on. As long as you have one of these, and it's in date, and you follow some other rules, you can buy cheap train tickets instead of paying the full fare.

There are also other things that the railway issues which people sometimes call railcards. These include tickets for a journey from A to B, season tickets (which allow you to go from A to B as often as you want for a week or a month or a year and so on) and things like London Travelcards which allow you to go anywhere on the Underground and buses and trains in London for a day or a week and so on. Lots of people call those railcards - but they're not, and they have different rules from 'proper' railcards.

Because the rules are different, we really need to know exactly what you had and what was on your phone that you couldn't show the inspector. So please tell us!

I explained that at the time my phone was new and forgot to setup the app again, but couldn’t access it due to the internet connection at Waterloo being poor where we were. Once I had connected and setup the app again it was too late

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==

If you did indeed buy a new ticket as instructed, submit this to the train company. Was the new ticket discounted with a railcard? Have you been in a position to see the inspector's notes? Did they make mention of their instruction to buy a new ticket?

It was a travel card for the day so I was told to buy another, unsure if there was any notes regarding that

 

[AlterEgo]

It was a travel card for the day so I was told to buy another, unsure if there was any notes regarding that

So we're clear, you had what ticket exactly to start with? Bracknell to London Zones 1-6 travel card? It's important we get this right.

And did you buy the exact same ticket - same fare, same discount etc, at the ticket office when told to?

 

[lucasnaz]

So we're clear, you had what ticket exactly to start with? Bracknell to London Zones 1-6 travel card? It's important we get this right.

And did you buy the exact same ticket - same fare, same discount etc, at the ticket office when told to?

Yes it would’ve been that ticket.
Then at the station I purchased another travel card with the 16-25 discount.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So we're clear, you had what ticket exactly to start with? Bracknell to London Zones 1-6 travel card? It's important we get this right.

And did you buy the exact same ticket - same fare, same discount etc, at the ticket office when told to?

Might have been from Martins Heron. An undiscounted anytime day single from there to Waterloo (route via Staines) is £15.20.

An off peak day travelcard (route via Staines) with 16-25 railcard discount claimed is £18.30.

 

[lucasnaz]

Might have been from Martins Heron. An undiscounted anytime day single from there to Waterloo (route via Staines) is £15.20.

An off peak day travelcard (route via Staines) with 16-25 railcard discount claimed is £18.30.

Yes it was Martins Heron, apologies

 

[swt_passenger]

So the $64,000 question appears to be:
”Is a digital railcard that you’ve bought but not downloaded to your phone subject to the same conditions as a forgotten physical railcard”.

 

[jumble]

Hi, I’ve just received a letter regarding an incident on 21/03 where I could not present my railcard to the inspector at waterloo because the connection was poor, even though I showed it to him after he wrote me a note.

I’ve been charged £100 + the £15.20 fare. Is there anyway to dispute this without going to court?

Can I confirm my understanding
You were able to produce a valid railcard during the course of the interaction with you which the inspector saw and noted on their pad , albeit after they had previously made notes about your inability to show it?

 

[John Palmer]

I explained that at the time my phone was new and forgot to setup the app again, but couldn’t access it due to the internet connection at Waterloo being poor where we were. Once I had connected and setup the app again it was too late

If I have followed your account correctly, you already possessed a 16-25 digital railcard which you needed to set up on your new phone. What you say suggests that your railcard was already set up on your old phone, and that what you had not yet done by the time of your interview by the inspector was to set it up on your new phone, so making it the second device on which you are permitted to install the digital card. Is that correct? Presumably you did not have your old phone with you? If you had, would it have been possible to display the card by means of the old phone?

 

[lucasnaz]

Can I confirm my understanding
You were able to produce a valid railcard during the course of the interaction with you which the inspector saw and noted on their pad , albeit after they had previously made notes about your inability to show it?

I was only able to present it to the inspector after the notes had been finished

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==

If I have followed your account correctly, you already possessed a 16-25 digital railcard which you needed to set up on your new phone. What you say suggests that your railcard was already set up on your old phone, and that what you had not yet done by the time of your interview by the inspector was to set it up on your new phone, so making it the second device on which you are permitted to install the digital card. Is that correct? Presumably you did not have your old phone with you? If you had, would it have been possible to display the card by means of the old phone?

Yes, I hadn’t set it up on my new phone (which took 2 minutes) but I did not have the old one on me no.

 

[jumble]

I was only able to present it to the inspector after the notes had been finished

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2022 ==


Yes, I hadn’t set it up on my new phone (which took 2 minutes) but I did not have the old one on me no.

Others may advise if this is a bad idea but Personally I would be very tempted to write to the email where it asks if one has any questions and very politely
say something along the lines of
I am very grateful for the opportunity to settle out of court as I wish to avoid court at all costs but wonder if you are aware that I had a valid rail card and that the inspector saw it albeit rather late in the proceedings, and if you had been aware would this have made any difference to the substance your kind offer to close the matter ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Others may advise if this is a bad idea but Personally I would be very tempted to write to the email where it asks if one has any questions and very politely
say something along the lines of
I am very grateful for the opportunity to settle out of court as I wish to avoid court at all costs but wonder if you are aware that I had a valid rail card and that the inspector saw it albeit rather late in the proceedings, and if you had been aware would this have made any difference to the substance your kind offer to close the matter ?

I wouldn't even include the bolded bit.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Again, I need to start this with an apology if what I write is offensive.

On the facts that you have given us (that you had a ticket valid with a railcard: that you believed you had that railcard on your phone: that when the inspector stopped you and you found that you didn't, you put this right in a matter of minutes and before leaving the inspector) then the railway's response to offer you an out of court settlement as an alternative to going to court seems wildly inappropriate and harsh: you should be writing to explain the facts as they are, and asking the railway to treat the matter as closed with no need for either an out of court settlement or a prosecution as following a mistake over your railcard which you resolved immediately and in the presence of their officer there is no loss to the railway to be compensated or any risk of you repeating the offence (as your railcard is now on your phone and valid).

However, on the basis of what I have seen from other people's postings to this site, I must wonder (and this is potentially offensive bit) if you have told us everything. What the railway have said in their letter is distinctly unhelpful - it just says that they think they would succeed in a prosecution, and not what evidence they hold. It doesn't tell us which parts of the byelaws or Regulation of the Railways Act they would consider prosecuting you under.

If it turns out that there are things that you wouldn't want to share with us but are relevant (maybe somehow you were verbally or physically offensive to the inspector in what you said or what you did? Did a police officer have to be called over? Did you try to climb over the barrier rather than taking part in the discussion?) then you might want to think twice about whether to fight back on this one. If there's something like that in the background then the offer of being able to settle the matter out of court for £115.20 might start to look like a good option.

Ultimately, it's you who knows the facts. If everything is as you've told us, then I encourage you to fight it. But if there's something more in the background, it might be better value to pay the settlement now.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

And, to add to the last post, people don’t judge here. They provide sound advice, free of charge, regardless of what the accused has done. Mostly, there is no such thing as “I’ll give advice if you’ve only done something minor, but if you've done any more than that then I’ll either withhold advice or deliberately give you bad advice”. Moderators would be quick to intervene were anyone to take such a line.

In other words, there’s absolutely nothing to be gained from giving a misleading impression of events, though I’m not saying that’s what’s happened here. The more complete a picture people give, the more pertinent the help will be; it really is that simple.

 

[Snow1964]

So in summary, it took you two minutes to produce a railcard (because you had to download a copy to a new phone), and this was then shown to the ticket inspector.

The letter clearly states ‘… upon the conclusion of the conversation… so even though Op was in process of finding the railcard, the inspector unilaterally decided to end the conversation.

I would follow advise above, and point out that you did show your railcard, (and add if appropriate, whilst standing at the barrier) it just took you a little while to produce it.

There is a big difference between not having a ticket or railcard, and taking a while to find it.

 

[Towers]

One possible scenario; OP did you definitely log in and download an EXISTING railcard, as opposed to purchasing a new one on the spot? And was the staff member absolutely clear that this is what you did, or could they potentially have believed that you had just purchased the railcard before returning to show them? Did they look thoroughly at the screen when you eventually produced it?

Buying a railcard once someone has asked to see it is likely to be a particular tactic that a revenue inspector would be aware and suspicious of, and it seems utterly bizarre for them to have submitted the paperwork for a prosecution if they were satisfied that you did indeed posses a valid railcard.

 

[lucasnaz]

There was nothing out of the ordinary with situation, I just couldn’t show my railcard until after the officer had taken the notes, and my ticket.

I came back to him 2 minutes later, since I finally had service, showing my railcard which was valid from september 21-22. He said he couldn’t do anything and that I’d still receive a letter.

 

[Dai Corner]

One possible scenario; OP did you definitely log in and download an EXISTING railcard, as opposed to purchasing a new one on the spot? And was the staff member absolutely clear that this is what you did, or could they potentially have believed that you had just purchased the railcard before returning to show them? Buying a railcard once someone has asked to see it is likely to be a particular tactic that a revenue inspector would be aware and suspicious of.

It seems utterly bizarre for them to have submitted the paperwork for a prosecution if they were satisfied that you did indeed posses a valid railcard.

It should be easy to show exactly when the railcard was purchased (i.e. before or after the journey started. Presumably the purchasing process generated timestamped emails?

Hence my advice earlier to write back, providing evidence that a valid railcard was held and relying on the 'once a year' easement.

Edit: I see the OP has confirmed he did indeed have a valid railcard.

 

[Western Sunset]

Wasn't there another recent thread where an inspector didn't give sufficient time for someone to produce their ticket? Is there a growing impatience amongst RPIs to get through their inspections as quickly as possible?

 

[Haywain]

I came back to him 2 minutes later, since I finally had service, showing my railcard which was valid from september 21-22. He said he couldn’t do anything and that I’d still receive a letter

This is quite important - you went away and then came back to show the railcard well after the conclusion of the interview. I don't think that helps your case. Concentrate on demonstrating you had a railcard rather than that it was shown.

 

[lucasnaz]

This is quite important - you went away and then came back to show the railcard well after the conclusion of the interview. I don't think that helps your case. Concentrate on demonstrating you had a railcard rather than that it was shown.

I tried to reason with the officer to let me through, get connection and prove I had a railcard, however he wouldn’t budge on the decision