Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Jturner98]

I don’t mean to be “that guy”, but isn’t that a 720?

Yes it’s a 720

 

[Energy]

I don’t mean to be “that guy”, but isn’t that a 720?

Yes

 

[SolomonSouth]

Seeing a few more 701s in depots, hope this means forward progress

 

[Elorith]

Seeing a few more 701s in depots, hope this means forward progress

Well near enough the whole fleet has been parked in depots and at Eastleigh works for the last 2 years now

 

[Nicks]

It's been said that no driver training has yet taken place - but does SWR have or intend to have a 701 driving simulator to speed the training?

 

[Snow1964]

It's been said that no driver training has yet taken place - but does SWR have or intend to have a 701 driving simulator to speed the training?

There are two elements to driver training
1) Route learning (irrelevant, as drivers already do these routes)
2) Type Conversion

The majority of the suburban drivers have already had to learn 707s, and in recent times many 450s have been used on suburban services (a new type to inner suburban drivers).

The big question is if managed to find time to do the 450 conversion, why have they not found time do do a 701 conversion.

Does anyone know how long the training is for a driver who is passed on 707s, basically learning detail changes, not doing a major conversion from say a diesel loco to an EMU where everything is different.

 

[TEW]

There are two elements to driver training
1) Route learning (irrelevant, as drivers already do these routes)
2) Type Conversion

The majority of the suburban drivers have already had to learn 707s, and in recent times many 450s have been used on suburban services (a new type to inner suburban drivers).

The big question is if managed to find time to do the 450 conversion, why have they not found time do do a 701 conversion.

Does anyone know how long the training is for a driver who is passed on 707s, basically learning detail changes, not doing a major conversion from say a diesel loco to an EMU where everything is different.

All SWR electric drivers already signed 450s, it's only Yeovil Junction and most of Salisbury depot that don't.

 

[Bigfoot]

All SWR electric drivers already signed 450s, it's only Yeovil Junction and most of Salisbury depot that don't.

Precisely. If you drive for SWR you sign 450/444 as base traction.

 

[St. Paddy]

There are two elements to driver training
1) Route learning (irrelevant, as drivers already do these routes)
2) Type Conversion

The majority of the suburban drivers have already had to learn 707s, and in recent times many 450s have been used on suburban services (a new type to inner suburban drivers).

The big question is if managed to find time to do the 450 conversion, why have they not found time do do a 701 conversion.

Does anyone know how long the training is for a driver who is passed on 707s, basically learning detail changes, not doing a major conversion from say a diesel loco to an EMU where everything is different.

I doubt the training times will be discussed until the units are deemed acceptable to ASLEF

 

[Wyrleybart]

I doubt the training times will be discussed until the units are deemed acceptable to ASLEF

Any ideas how far down the road that is ?
Not too clued up but AIUI the first dozen of so 701s had the bulkhead in the wrong place, and were supposed to be converted to standard, I thought this was the initial reason why ASLEF wouldn't touch them, and the remainder have presumably been delivered with the bulkhead installed correctly.

What are the problems now ?

 

[Elorith]

There are two elements to driver training
1) Route learning (irrelevant, as drivers already do these routes)
2) Type Conversion

The majority of the suburban drivers have already had to learn 707s, and in recent times many 450s have been used on suburban services (a new type to inner suburban drivers).

The big question is if managed to find time to do the 450 conversion, why have they not found time do do a 701 conversion.

Does anyone know how long the training is for a driver who is passed on 707s, basically learning detail changes, not doing a major conversion from say a diesel loco to an EMU where everything is different.

As others have said, the Desiro is basic traction for SWR drivers and guards with the exception of Salisbury and Yeovil crews, so there was no training needed to temporarily use 450s on suburban services.

Even now, it seems as though the company doesn't really have any idea as to whats going on with the 701s so there's little reason for any training to be done at this time when many things could be subject to change. FWIW, it's also actually my understanding that there quite a few drivers based at depots in the metro and suburban area who don't sign 707s even though they've been with the company as drivers for years.

 

[TEW]

After the big event with managers at Waterloo a few months back and declaration from SWR that training was all agreed with ASLEF, and the subsequent rebuttal from ASLEF, it has all gone very quiet again. This has been a very common theme with the 701s, months go by with them barely being mentioned.

 

[St. Paddy]

Any ideas how far down the road that is ?
Not too clued up but AIUI the first dozen of so 701s had the bulkhead in the wrong place, and were supposed to be converted to standard, I thought this was the initial reason why ASLEF wouldn't touch them, and the remainder have presumably been delivered with the bulkhead installed correctly.

What are the problems now ?

I don’t work for SWR so nothing I can add. Just my experience as a rep elsewhere is what I was basing my thoughts on

 

[Wyrleybart]

After the big event with managers at Waterloo a few months back and declaration from SWR that training was all agreed with ASLEF, and the subsequent rebuttal from ASLEF, it has all gone very quiet again. This has been a very common theme with the 701s, months go by with them barely being mentioned.

And that is what amazes me. At a very very generous estimate of say a million pounds a vehicle and with probably 40 units delivered to SWR, there is 400 million pounds worth of brand new trains lying around. Now I am not suggesting ASLEF are to blame for this, because there are obviously issues. But fro mthe general public's perspective of the latest rail strikes, they are going to be wondering why £400m of kit is not in use and blaming the unions and the workers - as they always do.

Really is quite amazing frankly

 

[Monty]

They still don't know what is causing the capacitors to explode (hasn't happened on a SWR unit yet, but three other units from 2 TOCs have), Alstom's 'fix' for seems to be to just add more bracing to the box it's mounted in.

These will not enter service anytime soon.

 

[DelW]

They still don't know what is causing the capacitors to explode (hasn't happened on a SWR unit yet, but three other units from 2 TOCs have), Alstom's 'fix' for seems to be to just add more bracing to the box it's mounted in.

These will not enter service anytime soon.

But those other TOCs haven't removed their trains from service, nor did SWR park up their 455 fleet after the incident at Guildford, so there is a degree of inconsistency here.

 

[DennisM]

And that is what amazes me. At a very very generous estimate of say a million pounds a vehicle and with probably 40 units delivered to SWR, there is 400 million pounds worth of brand new trains lying around. Now I am not suggesting ASLEF are to blame for this, because there are obviously issues. But fro mthe general public's perspective of the latest rail strikes, they are going to be wondering why £400m of kit is not in use and blaming the unions and the workers - as they always do.

Really is quite amazing frankly

The order was worth £900m if I remember right.

Wimbledon depot certainly seems to be filling up with them, last week noticed 4 in the down shed alone, there had only been 1 or 2 in there before. Things must be very slowly moving in the right direction if SWR are continuing to allow their depots to be filled with more and more of these units.

 

[Monty]

But those other TOCs haven't removed their trains from service, nor did SWR park up their 455 fleet after the incident at Guildford, so there is a degree of inconsistency here.

The 455 fleet was a compltely separate incident due to a faulty batch of capacitors and only affected a certain number of units.

Can't speak for the other tocs, but it seems perfectly sensible for a TOC not to accept a train if it has a known issue such as this. Why agree to pay for a train you might not be able to use all that much until the issue has been either solved or mitigated against?

That said they still have other issues with them.

Speaking of 455s Bournemouth are about to commence a program of C6 overhauls on them so I guess that shows you how much confidence there is that the 701s will enter service soon.

 

[Goldfish62]

Can't speak for the other tocs, but it seems perfectly sensible for a TOC not to accept a train if it has a known issue such as this. Why agree to pay for a train you might not be able to use all that much until the issue has been either solved or mitigated against?

Funny then how other TOCs manage to use 345s, 710s and 720s intensively day-in, day-out.

 

[Trainbike46]

Funny then how other TOCs manage to use 345s, 710s and 720s intensively day-in, day-out.

In part it's that the others have no choice: they no longer have the fleet these aventras replaced, so it's either use them, or don't run a service. SWR expecting the fault to be resolved before accepting them is completely normal, even while other TOCs make different decisions

 

[Goldfish62]

Gr

In part it's that the others have no choice: they no longer have the fleet these aventras replaced, so it's either use them, or don't run a service. SWR expecting the fault to be resolved before accepting them is completely normal, even while other TOCs make different decisions

Greater Anglia could have stopped accepting 720s, but they haven't.

 

[Carlisle]

Speaking of 455s Bournemouth are about to commence a program of C6 overhauls on them

The prediction of @Goldfish62 the 701s will be repurposed for Southeastern doesn’t now appear so far fetched

 

[Mikey C]

In part it's that the others have no choice: they no longer have the fleet these aventras replaced, so it's either use them, or don't run a service. SWR expecting the fault to be resolved before accepting them is completely normal, even while other TOCs make different decisions

But if they were so terrible, they wouldn't be able to run the services they do. Other than the cab design, the 710s and 720s are of the same generation as the 701s too.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The prediction of @Goldfish62 the 701s will be repurposed for Southeastern doesn’t now appear so far fetched

I have no current insider knowledge at all, but given the protracted issues around the 701's at present, I shouldn't read too much in to another round of C6's for the remaining 455 fleet. It is likely crunch time has arrived and a decision to keep the 455s fit for purpose for the next few years has had to be taken, especially as the 456s are gone and the 458's are likely not part of the ongoing (suburban) plan. The 455's alone are not sufficient (in number) to cover the suburban network services, so their involvement in the future 701 introduction cascade in essential....hence they need to be around and fit for service for a while yet.

 

[Elorith]

I have no current insider knowledge at all, but given the protracted issues around the 701's at present, I shouldn't read too much in to another round of C6's for the remaining 455 fleet. It is likely crunch time has arrived and a decision to keep the 455s fit for purpose for the next few years has had to be taken, especially as the 456s are gone and the 458's are likely not part of the ongoing (suburban) plan. The 455's alone are not sufficient (in number) to cover the suburban network services, so their involvement in the future 701 introduction cascade in essential....hence they need to be around and fit for service for a while yet.

The 458s are definitely needed for the foreseeable future if the 707s are being kept indefinitely as well

 

[Goldfish62]

The prediction of @Goldfish62 the 701s will be repurposed for Southeastern doesn’t now appear so far fetched

I still stand by that as a possibility.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Well thanks for the answer which basically seems to be 701s are being stockpiled on depots but are not trusted to go out on the railway because a component might explode - as has happened on Aventra sister fleets. In the meantime the remaining 707s are staying, and 455s are commencing their next series of undergear exams.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well thanks for the answer which basically seems to be 701s are being stockpiled on depots but are not trusted to go out on the railway because a component might explode - as has happened on Aventra sister fleets. In the meantime the remaining 707s are staying, and 455s are commencing their next series of undergear exams.

Except they're out on the network regularly for testing and mileage accumulation.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The prediction of @Goldfish62 the 701s will be repurposed for Southeastern doesn’t now appear so far fetched

701's for Southeastern !!?? Heaven help us over here

 

[Elorith]

Except they're out on the network regularly for testing and mileage accumulation.

Testing for sure, but don't know about mileage accumulation. To be doing their fault free mileage, they'd actually have to be fault free first.