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The future of population growth.

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AlterEgo

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mods note - split from this thread

Climate change is one of two very severe problems about to wreak havoc. The other is the collapse of fertility rates and population implosion. There are lots of reasons for this, none of which are addressed by having policies which don’t heavily incentivise people to start families.

One of the Tories’ big failings is they’ve fostered a rentier culture with employment precarity which heavily disincentivises families.
 
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nw1

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Solid centre left policies prioritise the family as a unit of support and nourishment. Social democracies tend to be very family-friendly.

Climate change is one of two very severe problems about to wreak havoc. The other is the collapse of fertility rates and population implosion. There are lots of reasons for this, none of which are addressed by having policies which don’t heavily incentivise people to start families.
One of the Tories’ big failings is they’ve fostered a rentier culture with employment precarity which heavily disincentivises families.

I had the impression (but am happy to be pointed out that I am wrong) that excessive increase in population was a key problem - mostly globally, but also in the UK to an extent. Certainly those on the right often use this to argue against immigration; less focus on having children would be an alternative way of tackling the problem.
 

AlterEgo

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I had the impression (but am happy to be pointed out that I am wrong) that excessive increase in population was a key problem - mostly globally, but also in the UK to an extent. Certainly those on the right often use this to argue against immigration; less focus on having children would be an alternative way of tackling the problem.
Not at all. Population collapse is a significant concern. Fertility rates are collapsing in many parts of the world.

 

jfollows

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The late Hans Rosling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Rosling) presented often on why population growth wasn't the problem some people made it out to be. He is quoted as saying
The five global risks that concern me most are the risks of a global pandemic, financial collapse, world war, climate change, and extreme poverty.
which is prescient, given that he died in 2017.
 

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Not at all. Population collapse is a significant concern. Fertility rates are collapsing in many parts of the world.

This is also why over a decade of rhetoric around cutting immigration has not seen equivalent action, we've been using immigration to prop up the economy in the face of low fertility rates at home.
 

AlterEgo

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The solutions to the very real, and very severe threat of population collapse involve some very difficult conversations about how exactly society should be structured.

Prioritising stable and loving child-bearing family units (however that family is organised! There is no right way to “have a family!) … is a pretty good start, though.
 

nw1

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The solutions to the very real, and very severe threat of population collapse involve some very difficult conversations about how exactly society should be structured.

Prioritising stable and loving child-bearing family units (however that family is organised! There is no right way to “have a family!) … is a pretty good start, though.

Even considering the article above, I don't like the idea of that in all honesty, as to me, it smacks of pressurising people to adopt a particular lifestyle when that might not be for them.

Remember that having children requires very considerable personal responsibility, financial burden and restrictions on freedom (for example, you can't just pop off to the pub, or to an event, in the evening when you feel like it). Many are happy to pay that price but some of us may not be. I would baulk at "big state" prioritisation of families over a childless lifestyle, and making life difficult for the childless. Should be all about freedom of choice. The role of the "big state", in my view, is to protect the vulnerable (by giving appropriate benefits for example), not to enforce or encourage particular lifestyle choices on people.

Remember also that even softly "pressurising" people to have children (financial incentives, for example) might lead people to have children they don't really want, with the attendant risks of child abuse. Not good. Only those that really want children should have them.
 
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AlterEgo

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Even considering the article above, I don't like the idea of that in all honesty, as to me, it smacks of pressurising people to adopt a particular lifestyle when that might not be for them.
That’s not much different to how we have to manage climate change.
Remember that having children requires very considerable personal responsibility, financial burden and restrictions on freedom (for example, you can't just pop off to the pub, or to an event, in the evening when you feel like it). Many are happy to pay that price but some of us may not be. I would baulk at "big state" prioritisation of families over a childless lifestyle, and making life difficult for the childless.
You can encourage family creation by having stable employment, affordable housing, and making it cheaper to raise children. This will involve making having a child less of a burden, like having easier to access childcare or simply making it more affordable. Alternatively we may need to think about whether double-income families (which leave nobody at home to actually raise children) as we’ve seen in the west are a societally beneficial development.
Should be all about freedom of choice. The role of the "big state", in my view, is to protect the vulnerable (by giving appropriate benefits for example), not to enforce or encourage particular lifestyle choices on people.
Do you agree the state shouldn’t do anything about climate change except maybe “defend the vulnerable”? Climate change is a big a problem as incipient population collapse. It involves governments giving heavy incentives to people to change their behaviour. This includes taxing some activities, or making it literally more do some things (like drive a car in cities!), or leaning heavily on industry to make better choices. The management of climate change is all about encouraging and even enforcing lifestyle choices. Try making a “lifestyle choice” to run a car on Four Star petrol for example, or avoid Air Passenger Duty leaving Heathrow, or it not costing you £15 to drive down Piccadilly Circus.
Remember also that even softly "pressurising" people to have children (financial incentives, for example) might lead people to have children they don't really want, with the attendant risks of child abuse. Not good.
So what is your solution then? Why are you so alarmed that governments might prioritise families, the units which generally ensure the continuation of our species?

Making it easier to raise a family and putting in place policies which encourage it are exactly what I’d expect any government to do. Try running on an anti-family “do what you like” platform and see how far that gets you.
 

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Even considering the article above, I don't like the idea of that in all honesty, as to me, it smacks of pressurising people to adopt a particular lifestyle when that might not be for them.

Remember that having children requires very considerable personal responsibility, financial burden and restrictions on freedom (for example, you can't just pop off to the pub, or to an event, in the evening when you feel like it). Many are happy to pay that price but some of us may not be. I would baulk at "big state" prioritisation of families over a childless lifestyle, and making life difficult for the childless. Should be all about freedom of choice. The role of the "big state", in my view, is to protect the vulnerable (by giving appropriate benefits for example), not to enforce or encourage particular lifestyle choices on people.

Remember also that even softly "pressurising" people to have children (financial incentives, for example) might lead people to have children they don't really want, with the attendant risks of child abuse. Not good. Only those that really want children should have them.
Fully agree!
 

brad465

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So what is your solution then? Why are you so alarmed that governments might prioritise families, the units which generally ensure the continuation of our species?
Change the economic model to adapt to lower fertility, not try and drive further population growth to serve this unsustainable model. What this will look like isn't entirely clear, but I would expect automation and a massive increase in sustainable/reusable material usage to need to feature.
 

AlterEgo

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Change the economic model to adapt to lower fertility, not try and drive further population growth to serve this unsustainable model. What this will look like isn't entirely clear, but I would expect automation and a massive increase in sustainable/reusable material usage to need to feature.
Changing the economic model essentially means working longer and being poorer in the medium term unless you plan on confiscating assets.

I can’t see any government in the UK advocating that, let alone a Conservative one. Population collapse is very severe because the problem is getting *worse* - fertility rates are still diving. Eventually almost nobody will have children in this utopian ideal. It’s a very serious problem.
 

SuspectUsual

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And don't get me started on phrases such as "family values"

Never forget that Truss only got to stand for the Tories in Calder Valley in 2005 as the original candidate was made to stand down because she was having an affair. At the time, Liz Truss was also having an affair.
 

Phil56

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This is also why over a decade of rhetoric around cutting immigration has not seen equivalent action, we've been using immigration to prop up the economy in the face of low fertility rates at home.
When we should have been concentrating on improving the skills/education/qualifications of our own children and working population to help reduce the need for immigrant workers.
 

Yew

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When we should have been concentrating on improving the skills/education/qualifications of our own children and working population to help reduce the need for immigrant workers.
What specific skills and training would you suggest for cleaning toilets in a Motorway Services?
 

Lucan

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The other [problem] is the collapse of fertility rates and population implosion.
I am astonished when I see this assertion, which is often put about by alpha males like Elon Musk to justify leaving a trail of abandoned mothers behind them, and also by men in cultures in which the number of their children is seen as their measure of manliness.

World population had trebled within my lifetime. That is bonkers. Anyone with the slightest grasp of arithmetic can see where that will lead, even if the rate of increase is decreasing. The danger of implosion comes from a catastrophy caused by over-population such as can be seen in the populations of certain other species which fluctuate wildly from boom to bust. Such a catastrophy could be from food shortage triggered by a drought or crop disease, a pandemic, or war over dwindling resources. We need to back off from that prospect now.

The price of raw materials such as copper and timber has already rocketed, and now we are seeing food and energy prices doing the same. It won't get better - you are now bidding for food and other resources against 3 billion upwardly mobile Chinese and Indians, and similar numbers from Africa will soon join them.

The UK is over-crowded. The World is over-crowded. Everywhere I go I am crowded by other people, and see new houses being built on former agricultural land for even more people. Traffic jams get worse, queues get worse, car parking gets worse, and trains are full and standing. When my father-in-law was demobbed from WW2 he was allocated a council house with a garden intended to be large enough for him to grow his own fruit and veg - and he did. But now a block of flats occupies the site. They, and all of us in the UK, must rely heavily on imported food now, an uncertain supply over which we can be held to ransom.

We should not be pursuing an economic policy which needs the constant stuffing of the bottom level with new compliant people, whether immigrants or flocks of offspring. We already have robots, machines and computers doing most of the grunt work anyway. Why do we need so many people? Economy of scale was reached long ago. We should be aiming for a world economy based on a steady population, numbering somewhat less than at present, so that people in the future can live a comfortable lifestyle that is sustainable in the long term, not an economy on a trajectory to disaster because of the old-style constant pursuit of "growth".

FWIW, I clean my own toilet, mend my own car, do my own house maintenance, and dig my own garden.

Graph of World Population Estimates 10,000 to 2100 :

World-population-1750-2015-and-un-projection-until-2100.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
 

AlterEgo

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I am astonished when I see this assertion, which is often put about by alpha males like Elon Musk to justify leaving a trail of abandoned mothers behind them, and also by men in cultures in which the number of their children is seen as their measure of manliness.
Sure.
World population had trebled within my lifetime. That is bonkers.
That’s not bonkers at all; it’s to do with the very successful way industrialised society has made conditions far better for the majority since the turn of the century. Children survive childbirth much more often now, as just one example.
Anyone with the slightest grasp of arithmetic can see where that will lead, even if the rate of increase is decreasing.
We were just told up thread that the future will be automation and sustainable living. That’s probably at least partly true, and I don’t see why such a utopia couldn’t sustain double the number of people currently on the planet.
The danger of implosion comes from a catastrophy caused by over-population such as can be seen in the populations of certain other species which fluctuate wildly from boom to bust. Such a catastrophy could be from food shortage triggered by a drought or crop disease, a pandemic, or war over dwindling resources. We need to back off from that prospect now.

The price of raw materials such as copper and timber has already rocketed, and now we are seeing food and energy prices doing the same.
But that’s not because “there are too many people”.
It won't get better - you are now bidding for food and other resources against 3 billion upwardly mobile Chinese and Indians, and similar numbers from Africa will soon join them.

The UK is over-crowded.
It isn’t.
The World is over-crowded.
It isn’t.
Everywhere I go I am crowded by other people
No you aren’t. Not even in England.

They, and all of us in the UK, must rely heavily on imported food now, an uncertain supply over which we can be held to ransom.
But that’s the case with many developed countries. No country is self sufficient.

We should not be pursuing an economic policy which needs the constant stuffing of the bottom level with new compliant people, whether immigrants or flocks of offspring.
Whenever I see pleas to protect in rhetoric, I simply ask: Do you think you’re a compliant person? Or do you think that’s just other people?
I’ve no idea why you’d finish your argument about alpha males with a link to a wiki article where the graph below that shows the media prediction is for population decline within 75 years. There is a real risk of incipient population collapse and it will be disastrous.

For what it’s worth, most arguments about degrowth are from less successful, white, childless men although I have refrained from suggesting this as a motive for such a poorly-evidenced argument that we need an environment hostile to children and families.
 

Gostav

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We already have robots, machines and computers doing most of the grunt work anyway. Why do we need so many people?
Emm, compared to China and Japan, the UK is not full of vending machines on the street side and the railways still use signal boxes along the lines. I think compared to these two Asian countries, quite a few European countries have not done this level of automation.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Change the economic model to adapt to lower fertility, not try and drive further population growth to serve this unsustainable model. What this will look like isn't entirely clear, but I would expect automation and a massive increase in sustainable/reusable material usage to need to feature.

I'm not sure it's about wanting to drive population growth, more a case of being concerned at the implications of too much population decline.

In terms of population levels, personally I'd be quite relaxed if low fertility levels cause the global population to decline from today's levels. About 100 years ago, the human race was thriving and developing (in terms of there being a long term progression of both technology and societal values) perfectly well with about a quarter of today's population, and I don't think there's any reason in principle to think that we couldn't do so with a global population of - say - 2bn - in the future. And there would be obvious environmental/sustainability benefits to a lower population.

Having said that, there must be some minimum population level that is necessary to sustain an industrialised, highly specialised, society and to ensure the human race continues to thrive. You could argue about level what that would be, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want any population decline to continue indefinitely.

A more immediate problem with any population decline is - as you say - the economic changes that would be needed to support a population that contains a much higher proportion of older people and still give everyone a good standard of living. I imagine that would require as a minimum a significant increase in the retirement age - which is politically a hard sell - and lifestyle changes to ensure people take more responsibility for their health and so are less likely to need constant extended care (which would be a good thing anyway).
 
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DelayRepay

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What specific skills and training would you suggest for cleaning toilets in a Motorway Services?
I think it's less about skills, but a good work ethic helps. Does our education system really prepare people for the world of work?

It's also an acceptance as a society that these jobs are important, they make a valuable contribution, and the people doing the work deserve to earn enough money to have a reasonable standard of living without having to rely on Universal Credit etc. to top up their wages.
 

yorksrob

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Sure.

That’s not bonkers at all; it’s to do with the very successful way industrialised society has made conditions far better for the majority since the turn of the century. Children survive childbirth much more often now, as just one example.

We were just told up thread that the future will be automation and sustainable living. That’s probably at least partly true, and I don’t see why such a utopia couldn’t sustain double the number of people currently on the planet.

But that’s not because “there are too many people”.

It isn’t.

It isn’t.

No you aren’t. Not even in England.


But that’s the case with many developed countries. No country is self sufficient.


Whenever I see pleas to protect in rhetoric, I simply ask: Do you think you’re a compliant person? Or do you think that’s just other people?

I’ve no idea why you’d finish your argument about alpha males with a link to a wiki article where the graph below that shows the media prediction is for population decline within 75 years. There is a real risk of incipient population collapse and it will be disastrous.

For what it’s worth, most arguments about degrowth are from less successful, white, childless men although I have refrained from suggesting this as a motive for such a poorly-evidenced argument that we need an environment hostile to children and families.

I can't remember who publishes it, but I'm reminded of the statistic that the human race uses around two and a half earths worth of resources or therebouts every year compared to what is sustainable. Frankly a bit of consensual population decline would do the world a favour.

The key will be managing the effects of such a change on the economy, and its looking as though countries such as Japan will be showing the rest of the world the way. Given the amount of automation we're told is coming out way, that shouldn't be impossible.

If you genuinely think that continual population growth is a good thing then you are delusional.
 

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It's also an acceptance as a society that these jobs are important, they make a valuable contribution, and the people doing the work deserve to earn enough money to have a reasonable standard of living without having to rely on Universal Credit etc. to top up their wages.
I would daresay that a lot of employers would make rather large donations to the Conservative party to stop that from happening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can't remember who publishes it, but I'm reminded of the statistic that the human race uses around two and a half earths worth of resources or therebouts every year compared to what is sustainable. Frankly a bit of consensual population decline would do the world a favour.
At the moment, the best thing we can do is to make developing nations become developed as quickly as possible - in general this means smaller families and less rapid population growth. this buys us time for technology to solve the problems we face, as opposed to making some very unfortunate decisions.
 

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I would daresay that a lot of employers would make rather large donations to the Conservative party to stop that from happening.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


At the moment, the best thing we can do is to make developing nations become developed as quickly as possible - in general this means smaller families and less rapid population growth. this buys us time for technology to solve the problems we face, as opposed to making some very unfortunate decisions.

Indeed. If people know that they and their offspring can survive comfortably, the urge to have very large families tends to dissipate naturally.
 

DelayRepay

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I would daresay that a lot of employers would make rather large donations to the Conservative party to stop that from happening.
Indeed - and as consumers most of us would object to the increase in prices/costs that this would lead to.
 

AlterEgo

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I can't remember who publishes it, but I'm reminded of the statistic that the human race uses around two and a half earths worth of resources or therebouts every year compared to what is sustainable.
Where'd you find that statistic?

Frankly a bit of consensual population decline would do the world a favour.
Or...consume less?

In 100 years, with population implosion, it's likely the workforce will be so completely stretched people will be working beyond 80 years old. People won't be able to enjoy anything like a retirement with a pension. And, of course, there will be fewer families, which are the building blocks of any civilised society, providing first-level support instead of the state. You'll need a vast state and huge infrastructure to manage this, and there will need to be difficult conversations about euthanasia.

Naturally, you or I won't see the first-order effects of this, so it is easy to say "well OK, maybe we do nothing then". Just like the people who shrugged off early suggestions of manmade climate change.

The key will be managing the effects of such a change on the economy, and its looking as though countries such as Japan will be showing the rest of the world the way. Given the amount of automation we're told is coming out way, that shouldn't be impossible.
Flying cars and automatic everything, a Jetsons future. Good luck thinking that even if that arrives people like you or I will get a fair share in the wealth and freedom those things bring.

If you genuinely think that continual population growth is a good thing then you are delusional.
It's not about growth for the sake of it, it's about opposing degrowth.

I'm deeply suspicious of degrowth. It's a nihilistic worldview for more and more atomised and family-less individuals, generally - but not exclusively! - promoted in my experience by already atomised individuals who have either had no personal wish to take on the responsiblity of a family or for whom the opportunity has passed them by.

It should be easier, cheaper and less disruptive to start a family. Many people feel priced out of such a decision and I think it's good that the government promotes healthy family units to try and hit a replacement birth rate again.
 

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World population is the sum of its parts and those parts move in very different ways.

A little while ago, when world population was about 7 billion (bn), there was an easy way to remember how it was distributed, which was as follows:

1bn Europe
1bn the Americas
1bn Africa
1bn China
1bn India
2bn the rest, mainly Asia excluding China and India

In rich countries, with good state provision of health and welfare, population is already mostly stable or falling. This applies in Europe, North America and parts of Asia, notably Japan. China is an anomaly, with stable/falling population resulting from the one child policy.

In poor countries, that don't have good state provision of health and welfare, population is still rising. Parents have lots of children to try to make sure that they have people to look after them when they get old, because they can't call on the state. This is mainly Africa, plus parts of Asia and South America.

As economic development takes place, countries move from the growth group to the stable/falling group. But there is a time lag for this because increased longevity means that for a while the population continues to increase, and it also takes time for fertility rates to reduce. In the latter case by far the most effective policy is education for girls. Taking all this together, that's why global population is expected to peak towards the end of this century. By that time, very few countries will still have rising populations, and lots will have falling populations.

Another way to look at population distribution is, as the statisticians love to say, broken down by age and sex. State health and welfare systems need workers and businesses to make money that can be taxed to fund health and welfare. If the number of economically inactive people, mainly children and pensioners, is too big a proportion of the total, then there aren't enough economically active people to pay the taxes that fund health and welfare. Many of the countries with stable or falling population are already falling into this trap.

And technology isn't the panacea that some hope it to be, because it is harder to tax a robot than to tax a human worker. It is possible to tax the companies that make and own the robots, but set those tax rates too high and the robots don't get made.

It is nonsense to suggest that there isn't space for more people. The UK is one of the more densely populated countries in the world, but only 6 per cent of land is built on. In Surrey golf courses take up more land than houses. Resource constraints are becoming more significant, as recent price rises for energy and food are demonstrating. But here in the south and east of England, we are just waking up to the realisation that the biggest constraint on development and population will be water supply.
 

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Where'd you find that statistic?


Or...consume less?

In 100 years, with population implosion, it's likely the workforce will be so completely stretched people will be working beyond 80 years old. People won't be able to enjoy anything like a retirement with a pension. And, of course, there will be fewer families, which are the building blocks of any civilised society, providing first-level support instead of the state. You'll need a vast state and huge infrastructure to manage this, and there will need to be difficult conversations about euthanasia.

Naturally, you or I won't see the first-order effects of this, so it is easy to say "well OK, maybe we do nothing then". Just like the people who shrugged off early suggestions of manmade climate change.


Flying cars and automatic everything, a Jetsons future. Good luck thinking that even if that arrives people like you or I will get a fair share in the wealth and freedom those things bring.


It's not about growth for the sake of it, it's about opposing degrowth.

I'm deeply suspicious of degrowth. It's a nihilistic worldview for more and more atomised and family-less individuals, generally - but not exclusively! - promoted in my experience by already atomised individuals who have either had no personal wish to take on the responsiblity of a family or for whom the opportunity has passed them by.

It should be easier, cheaper and less disruptive to start a family. Many people feel priced out of such a decision and I think it's good that the government promotes healthy family units to try and hit a replacement birth rate again.

We're probably about to have an early taste of "consuming less" with the energy bill crisis. Lets see how that goes.

Realistically to have a chance of getting through the next 100 years without a significant level of strife, developed countries need to maintain a decent standard of living whilst developing countries need to achieve one. That will not be possible to achieve sustainably with a continued population explosion.

I am one of those lazy nihilistic individuals who chooses not to procreate. I see that as contributing to this countries comparatively stable population, as well as removing some of the competition for resources/housing/educational and job opportunities from the children of those who actually want to start a family.

By and large, I would agree with government action on all aspects of cost of living, including maintaining families, but I don't believe the sort of population growth we've had world wide over the past fifty years is at all sustainable.

Apologies - its actually 1.8 earths worth of resources currently, but still pretty unsustainable:


(i'll provide a quote when Im at my computer).
 
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AlterEgo

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Realistically to have a chance of getting through the next 100 years without a significant level of strife, developed countries need to maintain a decent standard of living whilst developing countries need to achieve one. That will not be possible to achieve sustainably with a continued population explosion.
There isn't a population explosion. There is a steady decrease in fertility, worldwide, and the annual increase - which is already small - is getting shallower and shallower each year.

I am one of those lazy nihilistic individuals who chooses not to procreate. I see that as contributing to this countries comparatively stable population, as well as removing some of the competition for resources/housing/educational and job opportunities from the children of those who actually want to start a family.
If you admit it is a nihilistic worldview then it is not one worth serious discussion. In any case, choosing not to have children doesn't contribute to the country's population issue, because what happens instead is that immigration is necessary to maintain your standard of living. In most cases, those immigrants bring their (often large!) families to the country, and it's immigration which has driven the population increase we've seen in the UK - not the birth rate.

By and large, I would agree with government action on all aspects of cost of living, including maintaining families, but I don't believe the sort of population growth we've had world wide over the past fifty years is at all sustainable.
But nobody is arguing for the explosion in population - merely to avoid degrowth.
 

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it's immigration which has driven the population increase we've seen in the UK - not the birth rate.
That's not correct. The recently published 2021 UK census shows that, of the 3.5 million population increase between 2011 and 2021, about 1.5 million is due to excess of births over deaths, and about 2 million is due to net inward migration.
 

AlterEgo

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LBK
That's not correct. The recently published 2021 UK census shows that, of the 3.5 million population increase between 2011 and 2021, about 1.5 million is due to excess of births over deaths, and about 2 million is due to net inward migration.
So, yes, the majority of population increase is due to immigration - that's my point. I didn't say there wasn't a surplus of births over deaths, just that immigration is driving the increase. Which it is!

In any case, the main driver of "natural" population increase is a lowering mortality rate. The birth rate remains very low and well below any replacement birth rate, at about 1.6 births per woman. It isn't children being born driving the UK's population increase.
 
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